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Old 12th May 2008, 17:24   #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rkbharat View Post
But there is difference between faulty and less effective as compared to others..
Exactly. I am not concluding it to be faulty, but I could see something in what Amit was saying.
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Old 12th May 2008, 17:34   #47
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Originally Posted by GTO View Post
• Poor build quality
• Persistent (and significant) rattles in first couple of thousand kilometers.
• Interior part quality sucks
• Uneven panel gaps
• Parts falling off
• Low refinement and vibrations
• Poor NVH (e.g. Horn is too loud on the inside)
• Clutch failures

Did we ever have a complaint about lack of refinement in a Japanese engine (SX4 a tad coarse at high rpms). Heck, Jap engines are inherently supposed to be revv happy. And what about the low rpm throttle response of Swift petrol?

Has anyone paid attention to the boot lid of the DZire? It is so damn fragile that it feels just like a damn wafer. Is this what we have come to expect of Maruti Suzuki?

Maruti quality has taken a massive dive, there aren't any two sides to this. Whatever happened to the blind trust that we had in MUL? Did any 1998 Esteems have the complaints listed above (poor build, uneven panel gaps etc. etc.). They are going downhill…no doubt. And they better do something about it before its too late to recover.

We say that Maruti / Suzuki cannot succeed in the 8+ lakh segment because of brand? HOGWASH. Its because their cars simply don’t have the sheer quality, refinement or finesse that customers from this segment want. You think the NHC is overpriced? Well, I can see where the extra 1.5 lac rupees has gone. Does the GV *feel* like a 15 lakh piece of machine from anywhere? Any guesses on why it has flopped in the market? At the risk of sounding like a broken record, does it have the quality befitting of a 15 lakh price tag?

These lapses have changed my perception of Maruti....and I know I am not alone here. Below 4.5 lakh rupees, their cars rock. Above that is where they need to work. I won't deny that the Swift / SX4 are great cars, and kudos to Maruti for offering a great diesel (1.3 JTD), ABS, Airbags etc. and a value-driven price. But the need of the hour is sheer quality.
The direct comparison with Honda City is simply undigestable.
NHC had huge braking issues, and again ABS came only after SX4 sales were high.
OHC never even entered Euro NCAP. Baleno (without airbags ), accent, lancer(oldest avaliable in India), scored 2/5. What about honda. And at that point of time also cost of Honda was high.
Take NHC to expressway when there are reasonable crosswinds and hit 140. The car will shift lanes. This is engineering level problem with NHC.
Maruti SX4 wont shift lanes unless the one behind the wheel is idiot.
Maruti off late is not skipping on safety, but honda has done that.


Quote:
Originally Posted by finneyp View Post
GTO, you said it!

Maruti cars lacks the quality, finesse present in other global car brands!

They are able to sell cars to India due to:
1. Huge market for small cars
2. Their brand image in India
Maruti fullfills the requirements of indian customers and thats why they have reputation that not even Honda, Toyota, GM could break. And India is in a way very tough market.
The reputation was not built in a day.


Quote:
Originally Posted by GTO View Post

Ever wondered why developed economies (USA, UK etc.) see Suzuki as a sub-standard brand? Heck, forget Honda & Toyota....I never imagined there would be a day when I would call a Hyundai (Getz) better built than a Maruti (Swift).



Add low cost of ownership to your equation (value pricing, fuel efficient engines, low cost of service, reasonably priced spares, good resale).
In develpoed economies, Corolla as a brand is also not seen at high level, still corolla is a great car.


Quote:
Originally Posted by aerohit View Post
I think the G13 engine is utterly un-refined and outdated by todays standards + bad fuel mileage. Swift just cannot be driven with AC on.

I am OK with quality. Not too bad or Good.

The seats in Swift are too thick and have too much spong in them. Bad for posture.
The seats could be thinner = more leg space and room inside.

When the window is down, the Swift door side have hollow space that collects dust. I am talking about the hollow area that stretches from side mirror all the way to center pillar. This is bad design.


Warning - Do not take high speed formula-1 curves on Swift/SX4. You might lose your rear end grip. The rear suspension is NOT independent. Additionally, the ground clearance is also high. Not sure if the rear shocks are softer.

A fine car for normal day to day driving though.
Which small car provides independent rear suspension? Except indica.


If you feel that G13 is bad, well then go out and drag Getz 1.3 to dust. Swift will win. G13 even though old will never cease to impress and it can teach Getz 1.3 a lesson with ease.
Getz engine 1.3 is from alpha series that debuted in india in accent. 1.1 is an engine that debuted in india in Santro.





Simply put, not even a single manufacturer in India is good. Honda Accord ( Older generation, will be replaced soon ) was considered as tin foil when compared to European models. Did it ever suit to 15lakh tag. Well, even palio feels solid than that Accord.

Targetting maruti and comparing head on with other is not fair. Maruti is the first and the only car maker in the world to come first in Customer satisfaction while beign no.1 in sales. Honda in India has very samll operations compared to Maruti, still it is not to win customer satisfaction.

Maruti is able to offer excellent mechanical reliability while offer fuel effeciency and cheap maintainence and that has won over india.

Each and every car manufacturer has its own negative and positive points. Honda, Toyota,GM all have their own. The present Swift/SX4 chassis are really enjoyable unlike others, and they have more than sufficinet grunt and reliablity to pass the test of time.
Agreed, interiors are bad, bits are not good, but the chassis and powertrain are not bad, rather they are up there with the class.
In Swift segment , Swift has the best Powertrain todate that has everything required on offer.
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Old 12th May 2008, 17:46   #48
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Very well said aaggoswami. Maruti is not number 1 Indian car manufacturer for no reason. No one wouuld buy a car just for price equation unless there is quality to match. And we must not think that Indian user is any less insistent about quality than their western counterparts.
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Old 12th May 2008, 18:05   #49
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I totally disagree with this thread, yes there is always a scope for improvment. Fact is I was never a Maruti user, may be 18 years back when I had a Maruti 800 after that it was never a Maruti, moved to Safari, then a Ford, A santro and then a Scorpio and let me tell you all of them had major problems except for the Scorpio she was wonderfull never gave me any problems, I think it never went for repairs except for regular service. Ended up buying a Swift for my wife three years back and just loved it, no trips to the service center no rattling,no issues with the engine or the electricals, after experiencing the swift I ended up buying a SX4 last september. No issues with it either and hence decided to take it for a 3000+ kms spin to Rohtang pass and I tell you the car behaved perfectly, may it be the highway or the mountains, no rattling and it zips past most of the cars. I just came back yesterday from that trip and I dont think it needs to go to the service center for anything. Perfect car, what needs to improve is sound insulation, you can hear the bad roads, the good ones are fine, also it needs a better horn, the one they have given doesnt work with the truck drivers. Other than these two problems I dont think anything is wrong with this car.
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Old 12th May 2008, 18:08   #50
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Jaggu, I just knew I am going to be typing a reply to you eventually . Not all the comments were relevant to the Swift. For instance, the engine coarseness does apply to the SX4. Big time. However, things like clutch failure etc. have been reported often by Swift owners on TBHP itself.

Quote:
Originally Posted by benbsb29 View Post
If you ask me, i prefer better handling over ride quality.
You do as an enthusiast. But 90% of the Swift buyers would prefer ride quality over handling. That said, I have never found the Swift ride that bad. The Sx4...it is firm.

Quote:
Originally Posted by greenhorn View Post
I think it might be more apt to call it the Tata effect on maruti. Tata has been selling VFM stuff with all the issues mentioned in this thread , and people still buy them, despite the poor A.S.S as well.

Now if maruti can do the same thing , but with their better A.S.S , then why not? Their Target is the 90% who want VFM, and not the rest 10% who want quality.
Well said, greenhorn.

Quote:
Originally Posted by aaggoswami View Post
The direct comparison with Honda City is simply undigestable.
Considering that the SX4 and NHC are direct competitors, there will obviously be direct comparison, aaggoswami. Can you explain why the SX4 should not be directly compared with the NHC?

Quote:
OHC never even entered Euro NCAP. Baleno (without airbags ), accent, lancer(oldest avaliable in India), scored 2/5.
There is a reason for that....umm, the OHC was never sold in Europe . That said, I am not going to be silly enough to argue about the build quality of the OHC. Yup, it is pretty darn flimsy.

Quote:
Maruti fullfills the requirements of indian customers and thats why they have reputation that not even Honda, Toyota, GM could break.
Correction. It is not the reputation but the price that Honda / Toyota / anyone else cannot break. No one can produce the 800 cheaper than MUL....everyone knows that!

If Honda / Toyota struggle to sell a car below 5 lakhs, so does Suzuki to sell anything higher than 10 lakhs.

Quote:
In develpoed economies, Corolla as a brand is also not seen at high level,
Neither is the Accord, Laura or Camry. These are seen as mainstream sedans the world over, without an ounce of the luxury positioning they enjoy in India.

Whats the point here?

Quote:
Did it ever suit to 15lakh tag. Well, even palio feels solid than that Accord.
Of course the Accord is worth 15 lakh rupees! Look at its direct global competitor - The Camry - which is priced at 25 lakhs!! (CBU notwithstanding).

Unlike the GV, the market has awarded the Accord with class-leading success several months in a row. However, the tinny feeling and high speed composure are definitely drawbacks of the Accord.

Quote:
Maruti is the first and the only car maker in the world to come first in Customer satisfaction while beign no.1 in sales.
Absolutely. I myself have created threads / posts applauding them for the mega achievement. I think you are missing the point. Pointing out issues with build quality is not taking everything away from Maruti.

Quote:
Swift has the best Powertrain todate that has everything required on offer.
I surely wouldn't go as far as calling the Swift petrol the best engine of the lot. The 1.3 diesel, yes. But not the petrol which is a derivative of the Esteems, and has an utter lack of low-rpm grunt.
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Old 12th May 2008, 18:39   #51
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Well said GTO. Finally someone starts a thread like this.

I have always been pin pointing this out that MUL has really been going down on quality.

I really like some of their cars like Swift & SX4 but the Interiors and rattling is just too much and enough to drive away a prospective customer like me. I know they are probably only a handful of people like me who would walk away. MUL still has the last laugh as people still line up with booking amounts and are willing to wait.

Honda, Toyota, Hyundai or even Ford is miles ahead of MUL in terms of quality and refinement.

I have a 5 year old Santro Xing which is driven everyday in the worst possible roads and still I have yet to see even one single loose nut or a single rattle or squeek from it.

I hope Maruti reads this thread.
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Old 12th May 2008, 18:41   #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GTO View Post
I surely wouldn't go as far as calling the Swift petrol the best engine of the lot. The 1.3 diesel, yes. But not the petrol which is a derivative of the Esteems, and has an utter lack of low-rpm grunt.
With all due respect, dont take this from Swift/MUL. I thought that's the best 1.3 petrol in india atleast (unbeatable in power/reliability/FE put together in one package). Esteem is 160KG less in weight, hence the difference at low rpms.
I would rather go to the extent saying that 'G' series engines are the real story behind the MUL's success. In many pockets Hyundai made better cars, but failed to copy that engine.
I agree about the rattling , MUL must act on that.IMO a santro's window assembly rattles less than Swift's one.

Last edited by Ajay_J : 12th May 2008 at 18:52.
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Old 12th May 2008, 19:04   #53
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Worldwide Suzuki is renowned for motorcycles, small cars with good fuel economy/punchy engines and cheap but capable off road vehicles.

SX4 or GV may be marketed in India as "upmarket" but everywhere SX4 is considered an entry level 4x4 and GV as reliable off roader. Producing luxury cars had never been Suzuki's forte.

Quote:
Maruti is able to offer excellent mechanical reliability while offer fuel effeciency and cheap maintainence and that has won over india.
Agreed. For most people, these features matter more than few rattles or cheapo looking interiors.
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Old 12th May 2008, 19:15   #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by penpavan View Post
Exactly. I am not concluding it to be faulty, but I could see something in what Amit was saying.
I see your point buddy... cheers...
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Old 12th May 2008, 19:18   #55
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@GTO... NHC isnt flimsy for sure. Even I was pleasantly surprised when I drove the NHC for the first time. Its a tough nut although its looks and tag may suggest otherwise. Still not european in build quality but no way flimsy. The previous generation was, incredibly flimsy.
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Old 12th May 2008, 19:25   #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GTO View Post
Absolutely. I myself have created threads / posts applauding them for the mega achievement. I think you are missing the point. Pointing out issues with build quality is not taking everything away from Maruti.
I too agree this. Eventhough a owner of Maruti, I could not go for SX4 because of its interiors & built quality. I enjoyed their A.S.S with my Zen. Never had any complaints. But, when i was looking for next segment, i was looking for build quality which was missing in SX4.

Since the quality needs to be dependent on the cost, I am not able to understand why it is missing in SX4 which is costing 8Lac. I am not sure if the ABS & Airbag will be the reason quoted for the high price.
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Old 12th May 2008, 20:07   #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GTO View Post
Considering that the SX4 and NHC are direct competitors, there will obviously be direct comparison, aaggoswami. Can you explain why the SX4 should not be directly compared with the NHC?
If at all we wanted to compare the cars, lets compare them to death. The price difference is simply too much to tolerate and I feel that NHC should now be compared with Lower versions of Corolla and Cedia.

NHC has some engineerring problems not yet solved and is a safety issue. Simply put NHC is not the worth the price. It should have been solved. I see this as the biggest drawback to NHC apart from price.

You dont have real safety issue with SX4 even if you drive at 150. Premium cars arent made to shift lanes and sold at high price.
I see NHC a weak package and in reality it is supposed to be compared to Indigo/Logan/Dzire as per what the product is and should be compared to lower end Cedia and Corolla from price point of view.


Quote:
Originally Posted by GTO View Post
There is a reason for that....umm, the OHC was never sold in Europe . That said, I am not going to be silly enough to argue about the build quality of the OHC. Yup, it is pretty darn flimsy.
Going by your standards, Maruti Omni/800, Swift Dzire are not sold in Europe they why cry about the WAFER BOOT LID OF DZIRE.
800, Omni, Swift Dzire should not have and havent appeared in euro NCAP. Just as we tolerated high cost, low build quality of OHC, we can easily tolerate 800, Omni, Dzire.



Quote:
Originally Posted by GTO View Post
Correction. It is not the reputation but the price that Honda / Toyota / anyone else cannot break. No one can produce the 800 cheaper than MUL....everyone knows that!

If Honda / Toyota struggle to sell a car below 5 lakhs, so does Suzuki to sell anything higher than 10 lakhs.
Show me a 5,00,001 rs. car from Honda, Toyota. Its not price, its real brand, and that it why honda city's real competetion is SX4 and even Mighty Hyundai's verna could not break City, but SX4 did, thats brand.

Yes you are correct that Suzuki has struggled with 10lakh+ category. Lets hope Kizashi chages everything.



Quote:
Originally Posted by GTO View Post
Neither is the Accord, Laura or Camry. These are seen as mainstream sedans the world over, without an ounce of the luxury positioning they enjoy in India.

Whats the point here?
The point is that you have quoted Suzuki cars as not a reputed brand because of product quality, but I dont agree with that. Yes the product quality is not great, but earlier versions from Honda/Toyota were also bad. So nobody is best.


Quote:
Originally Posted by GTO View Post
Of course the Accord is worth 15 lakh rupees! Look at its direct global competitor - The Camry - which is priced at 25 lakhs!! (CBU notwithstanding).
well, Camry is CBU. Skoda Octavia (A4 ) is better built than Accord at 15 lakhs. So if we can blame maruti, why not honda. The point here is that maruti is unnecessarily targeted.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GTO View Post
Unlike the GV, the market has awarded the Accord with class-leading success several months in a row. However, the tinny feeling and high speed composure are definitely drawbacks of the Accord.
GV, the world over is a highly reputed for its offroading capabilites.
Accord similarly is also reputed. what made GV a failure in India is brand.
maruti can hold up its own till 9-10lakh, but not beyond that.


Quote:
Originally Posted by GTO View Post
Absolutely. I myself have created threads / posts applauding them for the mega achievement. I think you are missing the point. Pointing out issues with build quality is not taking everything away from Maruti.
If you read again, you have severely targeted Maruti. If this were not the case, then Why all the positive points not as elaborately emphasized as negative points.



Quote:
Originally Posted by GTO View Post
I surely wouldn't go as far as calling the Swift petrol the best engine of the lot. The 1.3 diesel, yes. But not the petrol which is a derivative of the Esteems, and has an utter lack of low-rpm grunt.
Its not that utter lack, yes there is lack, but its not irritatingly low as you seem to have experienced. And it has life after certain rpm that can still bring smiles to people who are not rich enough to get 10+lakh OTR NHC VTEC.



Quote:
Originally Posted by vkochar View Post
Well said GTO. Finally someone starts a thread like this.

I have always been pin pointing this out that MUL has really been going down on quality.

I really like some of their cars like Swift & SX4 but the Interiors and rattling is just too much and enough to drive away a prospective customer like me. I know they are probably only a handful of people like me who would walk away. MUL still has the last laugh as people still line up with booking amounts and are willing to wait.

Honda, Toyota, Hyundai or even Ford is miles ahead of MUL in terms of quality and refinement.

I have a 5 year old Santro Xing which is driven everyday in the worst possible roads and still I have yet to see even one single loose nut or a single rattle or squeek from it.

I hope Maruti reads this thread.
Honda city that happens to be the best selling honda in india has dynamics problems. If they really worked hard for build quality, then why not solve this problem. Toyota is the best and I have to agree. Ford also comes up high, but not hyundai. Definatly not the Santro.

On the funneir side, Santro lacks the top end grunt to really proper it to higher speed where there is more stress.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ajay_J View Post
With all due respect, dont take this from Swift/MUL. I thought that's the best 1.3 petrol in india atleast (unbeatable in power/reliability/FE put together in one package). Esteem is 160KG less in weight, hence the difference at low rpms.
I would rather go to the extent saying that 'G' series engines are the real story behind the MUL's success. In many pockets Hyundai made better cars, but failed to copy that engine.
I agree about the rattling , MUL must act on that.IMO a santro's window assembly rattles less than Swift's one.

Excatly. Load a Zen 16V G10 and similarly load santro. Go to highway and you will come to know the difference after 85-90kmph. G series are really, really good engine that combine the best of all worlds. No other engines have done this. G13 in Swift i.e. heavier than esteem still beats that Mighty Hyundai's Getz 1.3. I believe that the engines that came with OHC and the G series are the best to hit India till now.


Quote:
Originally Posted by mjothi View Post
I too agree this. Eventhough a owner of Maruti, I could not go for SX4 because of its interiors & built quality. I enjoyed their A.S.S with my Zen. Never had any complaints. But, when i was looking for next segment, i was looking for build quality which was missing in SX4.

Since the quality needs to be dependent on the cost, I am not able to understand why it is missing in SX4 which is costing 8Lac. I am not sure if the ABS & Airbag will be the reason quoted for the high price.

It looks like no body is referring to the chassis or some structural member.
Make that interior build quality and interior fit and finish, not the overall build quality.

Last edited by aaggoswami : 12th May 2008 at 20:08.
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Old 12th May 2008, 20:11   #58
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Wow, just a few hours and the thread is already 4 pages long. Having been only a Suzuki user for 23 years now, I think I should be able post my observations.

I do see an erosion in quality from the initial all-Japan-made cars to the current lot of 95% indigenous cars from MUL. The attention to detail that was there in our '85 M800 was missing in the '99 M800 we bought. But, I do not think it is something specific to a segment (above 4.5lakhs, as GTO said).

In the more than 3 years of using my Baleno, there has not been even a single rattle anywhere and it is a 6lakh car. While I don't offroad with it or fly over humps, it has seen its share of bad roads - anyone who has used the OMR before it became the neat road it is now, would know - it was running on those roads daily for months. The engine is a gem, ride is good, overall a good car and no complaints till date.

Ofcourse the interiors are all black and might look plain in comparo to the other cars, but I like it that way (especially the gleam after dashboard polishing) and am not much on interiors anyway. The Swift interiors are plain too, but OK for my taste. I don't see this as a quality issue. Maybe cutting down on cost, but no quality issue.

Have not used the SX4, but use the Swift (Mar'07) extensively because my Dad has one, and I have not heard any rattles anywhere. But, since many Swift users have mentioned rattles, this must be a valid grouse and maybe we were just plain lucky or MUL rectified the problem by the time we got the Swift. If a car rattles, it surely is a quality issue. I would hate rattles on my car, be it a M800 or a Baleno.

My major irritant with the Swift, as GTO mentioned, is the low rpm throttle response. I would be on the highway having run up the gears and cruising in 5th, being overtaken left-and-right by Altos and M800s. This would irritate me no end - I don't mind being overtaken by Innovas or sedans, but if a puny 800 overtakes me, it sucks.

I would go down to 3rd gear and it would be somewhat better. But why should I drive on the highway in 3rd gear, when I cruise in 5th in Chennai city roads (off-peak hours and in the Baleno) and still have juice left which is accessible by just dabbing the A-pedal ? I initially thought this was because the Swift was 4bhp less than Baleno and had 55 kgs more. But is that such a big difference ?

As binz mentioned, I really hate the car for this and would prefer the Baleno anyday. Maybe it is a clutch setting with our car, not sure. In-fact the 3rd service is due and this is my big grouse to be pointed out. Let's see what they do about it.

Parts falling off ? Never happened in any of our cars. Was that just for effect or something that has actually been reported on the forum by anyone ?

Panel gaps - I never really examined the Swift all-round for gaps, but atleast none came to my notice. I am guessing they are either OK or atleast minor enough to not be noticed.

The boot-lid being thin, seems like a non-issue to me - don't know about other C-segment sedans, but in the Baleno also it is light-weight. The bonnet is pretty heavy though, very unlike Maruti.

Did not notice any issues with low refinement and vibrations either. And about the horn being heard inside - never felt that with the Swift or Baleno.

To sum up, I do see that the quality is not like it was when they started out, and there is great scope for improvement. Maybe their market leadership made them complacent, but it sure is not a good thing.

But has the quality deteriorated to the extent that there are reliability issues - as in breaking down in the first few years of ownwership ? No, I dont think so. Now that is a real quality issue for me - I can even manage a rattle or two, but if my car breaks down during the first few years of ownership, inspite of normal usage and scheduled servicing, then that is not acceptable.

And talking about whether MUL will be able to sell cars above the 8lakh range is pure hypothesis at this time, because they don't have cars in that segment yet. I know the GV exists, but that is not even known to most customers.

There was a time when the Baleno failure was attributed to this logic, while in reality it was just the case of the car not being up to the competition (OHC, Lancer, Astra etc) in terms of overall value and the price blunder. Today the SX4 sells and it is close to 8lakhs, ain't it? If you have a good car, which appeals to the target segment, it will sell, MUL or otherwise.

We have enough Swift owners here and quite some comments from them. Maybe the SX4 owners (ItNerd, neoranjit etc) can also contribute so we get an idea about the SX4, instead of us just hearing a repeated story from amit about how his old Palio excels the SX4 in everything. And if this is indeed true, I am not sure how someone (a tbhp-ian at that) would close in on a car which is not value at all for the 8lacs spent.

Last edited by supremeBaleno : 12th May 2008 at 20:18.
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Old 12th May 2008, 20:16   #59
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Hi Guys,

As i have mentioned in another thread (it is regarding the build quality of swift) the quality of Maruti Sucks. I have owned swift before (had it for 18 months with close to 25k on ODO) and will never go for any maruti vehicle in future.

When AC is on the power of swift is like a tortoise. Getz can beat swift easily with AC on. Its not that the cooling of AC in swift is good. It takes helluva time to cool the cabin with AC speed at 2.

I do support what GTO has mentioned in his first post. The quality has gone down a lot. Its not about having more or max number of A.S.S than its competitors. It is all about providing good service which Maruti fails to do.
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Old 12th May 2008, 20:27   #60
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Sorry for the O/T posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rudra Sen View Post
Jaggu keeps replacing those plastic clip/buttons (for plastic parts locking). There are plenty of them in his Swift's cubby hole.
I need some of those!

Quote:
Originally Posted by binz View Post
To cut a long story short,I prefer to drive the 6 year old baleno anyday over the swift.
I didnt know the Baleno was older than you !
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