The SX4 / Swift Effect on Perceptions

[srijit]

It is not possible for Maruti to please anyone, and we do not expect them to. But it is when they start sacrificing quality for quantity that car lovers feel sad. Ordinary people will not bother with rattles. They will consider them as part and parcel of driving on Indian roads.
Another factor which I feel why people go for Maruti is because we have all heard of them. They have been around for ages. They have lots of service centres. Their spare parts are cheap. They return reasonable to good mileage. These are the major reasons why people select them. I know my mother used these criteria and no more

[arunmur]

MSIL defintely on its way down in terms of quality. Those older cars were feeling sturdy but now we have weeker machines(look at 2001 model WagonR and look at the one now).

But MSIL has definitly made cheap to own cars. My Dad's WagonR is a far cheaper to own car than my Motorcycle by many times. MSIL is far ahead of the competition in offering saftey equipment atleast, in all segments. We have to congatulate MSIL on that, how many would have bought the SWIFT if it was sold at the price similar to UK. If there is an issue, it is with them trying to give too much for the price. But all said and done, we still have very reliable set of cars(how many had axle braking when crusing down the road?). All Suzuki engines in recent day are a bit course but nothing like unbearable(they just want them sound sporty).

At 8.5 Lakhs MSIL offers SX4 with stuff that the Toyota could not do with a 13 lakh rupee car and despite Tyoyta selling that stuff for years here and want to know the numbers they make world wide with that car(what is its development price). All they have to say is that for that 5 lakh extra they are offering Toyota brand, thats it, for that numbers world wide they can easily sell them to us at sub 7lakh rupee car. Please do not compare SX4 with the city, its the lamest and should not be done because the mags are doing it. The City is very comfurtable but its not big enough, i feel its only as big as the DZire may be a bit bigger(my uncle owns the Honda City) but in both the cars it is possible to seat three at the back only if you want a nice shoulder rub. More over, is the City crash tested or NCap rated, the Swift sold here is atleast a 3 star rated car(without the curtain bags). You could buy a DZire with all the kit and diesel engine cheaper than buying a Honda City with half the equipment. The City in Thailand is sold with a 1.5L VTech engine, thanks to our commitment in buying City, they dont want to offer anything more, claiming that the iDSi is the most fuel efficient engine. If they plonk in a diesel inside that thing by any chance it will be atleast 11 lakhs on road(who is crying that Fabia is overpriced). Are their service better, i have heard people cry out loud MSIL offer best service, in line is Hyundai. Why do we buy a Honda?

The Toyota and Honda offers nice hybrids world wide but never managed to get them here let alone the price, even with 30% government rebate they are planning to charge almost the double for the Hybrids.

About the GV, it is by far the best offroader offering if you don't want to sweat over taking your 20lakh rupee car offroad. Its a very reliable car too, unlike its cheaper siblings. Most people don't buy it because they are not looking for a SUV, they are looking car a big looking car, but MSIL is not offering that.

All in all, its price versus brand. You can buy an MSIL product for a cheap price save lots of money over its lifetime with good enough reliability and extra boat loads of saftey or choose a really nice brand you dream about.

[Jaggu]

Originally Posted by s0uljah

Sorry for the O/T posts

I need some of those!

Chetta, those are mud flap clips. When i replaced the rear mudflaps that came with the car with the shorter/older ones, i had some issue with misaligned locks, so every long trip one of them will fall off. Thankfully its rectified now and i have some spare clips in my car.

If you are really looking for them all the dealers have it on stock, name any size and shape they have it. For Honda Crv also we stock some clips, coz after every service one or two will go missing. This is the detail which most of us overlook, finally one day rattling starts and if really unlucky you will land up loosing a part to the road also. That reminds me CBU honda lost 2 plastic bits in the first 5000 km, alas those bits are not even available as spare even if i can afford the Yen pricing.

One point that i would also reiterate, if you can, avoid opening the door pads for accessory fitting, unless its absolute must. If you do this half of internal rattling can be avoided. Sadly almost all of us rip it apart for speakers. Again if the installer is careful damage can be minimized.

When i installed @ JBL, i was a real pain for the installer with my ouch's, but at the end of the day, all my pestering really helped.

So please continue the Maruti = evil thread

[rippergeo]

Originally Posted by ballkey

- The ride quality sucks. MTC buses have much more pliant suspensions.
- Some plastic parts are suspect - especially the interior door handles, bumper clamps, etc. Cardboard sheets would hold up better than the swift's bumpers.

ride quality is fine. its a trade off between handling and ride. if ride quality is as bad as you make it out to be, the swift would not be the most popular hatch in india today(in its segment) everyone knows, we indians like our rides plush.

I prefer the ride the way it is.

Originally Posted by ballkey

- Rear visibility is poor. the flanks too.

the poor visibility is a side effect of the radical looks which make it so popular.

Originally Posted by ballkey

Having said that, the engine, clutch, brakes and gearbox are still a breeze, and I cant think of a comparable car in this price range. My car's done 35k so far, in 2 years. There's still a rush when I downshift and bury the go-pedal. It's a Petrol Vxi, and the FE aint too bad either.

this is why it sells!

Originally Posted by ballkey

Different people want different things from their cars; for some, quality means great NVH, tough build quality, classy interiors etc. For other folks, it could be just bullet-proof reliability, adequate performance and acceptable FE. In the end, you get what you pay for.

I'm part of the other folks group!

Originally Posted by penpavan

Driven all three. Swift, NHC and I10. The EPS should make the steering lighter and that happens more in NHC and I10 than in Swift.

the EPS is fine! if its light, people complain there's no feedback. if its hard/heavy, people complain there is too little assistance. the manufacturer cant build a car that will satify everyone at 5.75 lacs. you must admit though, the manufacturer that has come closest to doing so is maruti.

Originally Posted by benbsb29

With respect to the Swift, the handling strength of the car results in poor ride quality. There has to be some compromise somewhere. If you ask me, i prefer better handling over ride quality.

phew! somebody gets it! what a relief!
BMW handles well and rides well(its still stiffer than a merc) but whats the price difference between a BMW and a swift?

Originally Posted by Jaggu

Stiffer the suspension, better the handling, rough patches can be cleared at higher speed and then it wont thud, trust me. Caution you need to have good car control.

Take a swift and rip it over bad patches, apart from OE tyres loosing traction (upgrade takes care of this to great extend), you wont hear any thuds nor will you bent the discs. Take it slow and it will dance and in some cases bent the rims also. Same with iKON, it loves bad roads to be taken at speeds.

I personally hate soft handlers, they just dont give the confidence on indian highways, yeah they will be soft, cradle you in city where you putter around. But suspension will crash if you try high speed antics.

How many people look for strut braces and suspension upgrades in India? Yes average indian wont care about this, coz he will be blocking the fast lane at 50 kmph, irrespective of bad or good road conditions lol.

Again we are going from poor quality to handling here.

man after my own heart! no wonder we drive the same car. and love it!

Originally Posted by DCEite

Regarding EPS, its a well known fact that enthusiasts (self proclaimed or otherwise) just hate it. For them a well weighed steering giving adequate feedback is top priority.

and I like the feedback from the EPS. also.. I like the fact that it does not sap power from the engine unlike a hydraulic power steering which runs its compressor off the crank.

Originally Posted by DCEite

And yes, quality of MASS has taken a nosedive in recent years. Its more to do with large volumes, and the subsequent decrease in service station/car ratio.

no it hasnt. the nose dive took place when the indigenisation of parts started with the 800. decades ago.

we've been buying a new maruti almost every year since 1988.
the nosedive is old news. its not a recent phenomenon. marutis rattle. they always have. but they dont breakdown. take a drive down any highway across india. take a random count of the number of cars you see parked by the roadside, with the bonnet open. marutis are reliable. thats what matters.

like jaggu said, the rattling is an issue, and it is worth making a fuss about, but the scale of the problem is nowhere near that of certain other manufacturers launching new cars.

rattles will not cause the car to sell less, till the other manufacturers pull up their socks and offer better alternatives.

maybe its because I think differently.
I have a car that runs reliably,is great fun, runs fast, stops well, turns well, gives great mileage, is cheap to maintain and is completely hassle-free when taken for A.S.S. and its all available for 5.7 lacs, why bother about the rattle from the left rear door? BTW- thats the only problem I've had with the car(15,000km in 8 months)

this is a great idea for a thread, hope maruti sees this and does something about it! awwww come on....why should they bother? the car is selling like hot cakes.there is no real competition in sight. they can afford to cut corners till the other manufacturers give them a run for their money. that is where the problem is.

[Ram_NP]

Very nice thread and good to know views from both sides. That what make Team-bhp a great site.

It's true that Maruti's build quality is not so good. But where Maruti scores is fullfilling main targets of majority of consumers to choose a car i.e. less price, good service and decent milage.

But as the Indian car market is maturing, Maruti must address the quality issue to stay front runner in coming years.

[theEnd]

Ok, time for me to throw in my 2c.

I've been driving a Swift Zxi for two years now. Yes, the plastics are cheap and flex (you can push the door trimmings almost an inch in with just a finger). Yes, when you drive at slow/medium speeds on a potholed road it feels like you're sitting in the middle of an orchestra. Yes, sometimes the suspension noises and jarring ride make you feel like the car is about to fall apart all around you. Yes I had to replace my clutch after about 20,000 kms as it was starting to slip.

But, as has been mentioned before by Jaggu, take a bad road at a slightly higher speed, and its surprisingly much better. Also, the front seat is really comfortable (more so than my last car, a Ford Ikon, and more than a Fiesta too). The steering is decent (better than most Hyundais, not as good as most Fords). The engine is good after 3000rpm. Before that its dead. But its the same with a Civic (and I've driven that extensively).

My solution is that you have to adjust to cope with the problems. I've got some loud ICE in the car to drown out suspension noise. (I have no rattles because everytime I hear one I make sure it is eliminated). I dont drive for fuel efficiency cuz then autos will overtake me. I hold usually hold 2nd gear till 45kph, hold 3rd till 60 and then its not too bad. And I have no complaints with the climate control in the Zxi.

At the end of the day, its a car that's built to a price. Overall, not bad for less than 6L. I think every car has its issues. I'd actually pick this over my old Ikon because, while that car was way more fun to drive, it had horrible brakes which could have resulted in a really bad accident, while this one just rattles and feels not so well put together.

[theMAG]

The single biggest characteristic I've seen across all Marutis is their poor interior execution. Every single one of them rattles. While its all OK for Maruti to say they're offering international builds in India, they know all too well that thats not enough. Their Indian offerings should have extra sound insulation, interior panels padding and other such fortifications not present in their international offerings.

In their largest market in the world, Suzuki have a lot more responsibility and accountability that they're not willing to consider.

[CBlazer]

Originally Posted by GTO

I surely wouldn't go as far as calling the Swift petrol the best engine of the lot. The 1.3 diesel, yes. But not the petrol which is a derivative of the Esteems, and has an utter lack of low-rpm grunt.

Originally Posted by Torque123

When AC is on the power of swift is like a tortoise. Getz can beat swift easily with AC on. Its not that the cooling of AC in swift is good. It takes helluva time to cool the cabin with AC speed at 2.

Just curious - which car is really a good reference for a healthy low end-grunt in this segment? I've found even a Getz 1.3 struggling with AC on this summer. The other car I TD recently - a much more expensive, Fabia 1.4 16v which sort of matches the Swift and Getz in terms of power and has a better torque (on paper) is also pretty sluggish - maybe due to it's bulk. So I don't see anything that is way ahead of competition in this aspect.

[pgsagar]

[quote=greenhorn;827384]
I think it might be more apt to call it the Tata effect on maruti.

May be. But while Tata started at bottom and seems to be improving, MUL started higher up and seems to be slipping.

[Murugan]

Originally Posted by GTO

And then, in the last week, someone who bought a Dzire came by to take me for a drive. I tell you, that boot lid is made out of hardened tissue paper.

No doubt; the boot of the DZiRE closes with a tinkle and not a thud! Even the door tinkles when closed with the windows down. At that price point I'm not complaining though.

[Glass]

Can the experts please comment on how Ford fares on this.

[ece2k2]

my take is:

i have a swift petrol nov 2005 model which has done slightly more than 9000 km. this one doesn't rattle at all in the normal road conditions (unless i go over a big pothole/rough patch in low speed). When i was driving in a sedate manner, i used to get even 17kmpl which i will term as amazing mileage and the worst mileage I got was around 12 kmpl when I was doing 100+ kmph frequently. Now my dad drives this car and he too gets around 13 kmpl in the coimbatore city conditions, which is not bad and exactly the same as that of the santro mileage he drove before the swift. As far as the low end torque goes, i always had problems only when i took off from standstill. I think that the possible reason for the premature swift clutch failures is bcoz people tend to rev the engine while engaging the clutch for avoiding the car getting "off" in slow moving stop/go traffic - I have seen this kind of driving by a couple of friend's in their swifts and I tend to avoid it by sticking to the first gear. Once the car starts moving, i could feel a good torque in even lower revs and with aircon "on" in almost all the reasonable gears. And finally, the ride comfort is not bad either.

i got impressed with swift petrol and bought swift diesel during feb 2008 for myself at Bangalore. I must say that i am equally impressed with the Swift LDi. There are a couple of rattles - one each in the front doors. But, I would attribute these rattles to the guys at the MASS who fitted the nippon remote locking. Being a diesel, this one does not have the issue with the low end pulling either. Infact, when I was looking for a new car I could not find a better diesel option in the under 6L category and that is the sole reason for me ending up in another swift.

I have owned and extensively driven santro 1.0 / siena 1.6. And I do feel that Swift is a better compromise out of the 3 cars. For Santro, the back seat ride quality is horrible and for siena 1.6, the controls are pretty heavy and gave me body ache if I drive for 100+ km in stop/go traffic. Yes, Siena is good if I want to drive in highway at 125+ kmph speeds but I needed a single car which will be good for both city and highway.

I have one question on the swift build though. If I remember correctly, Swift is as heavy as the retro palio. And Swift body's sheet metal is pretty light and so does the engines (petrol being all aluminium). If this is the case, where does the weight go ? if it is the underbody, chassis, etc ..., then is it not a good sign of the build quality ?

- skb.

[hellspawn]

I agree with the fact that maruti's quality is pathetic.Had a zen before which rattled, my brother's swift done only 8k kms rattles like crazy.Hell,my sx4 zxi done 1200kms is showing signs of rattling.If you shut the door too hard,something rattles inside.My nhc vtec which has done 50k is smooth as ever.The plastics havs held up,there are no rattles from anywhere and there is still a muted thud when the car goes over bumps.Its still running on the stock suspension(struts) and stock clutch .the sx4 on the other hand has vibrations in the clutch pedal,the brake pedal and the gear knob.The pathetic quality of plastics on an 8lac car is unforgivable.The ride is too firm.

I think its stupid to want handling than ride quality..If maruti builds a track and gives free membership to all those who buy their cars,i will gladly go for the firm handling but till then , please can i have better ride quality.
I dont understand the point maruti is trying to make.first they make a car with good handling characteristics and say "this car handles..blah..blah" and then they put puny 165/80R14 tires on all their swifts .Whats the point...Because whoever wants to exploit the handling characteristics will obviously shift to broader rubber or upsize to 15" and behold,the ride quality goes down even further.

[SkyWalker]

folks, this thread scares me.

I had the swift & SX4 in good respects. I have heard some mentions here and there about rattles and build quality - never thought it was this bad. Downright scary for any prospective buyer, if u ask me !

on the plus side, had and 800 way back. dad bought it long back and that was my first (not own) car - and i loved the car. He later sold it and went for a Santro - but we will always have pleasant memories about Maruti & our 800

[Jaggu]

Originally Posted by SkyWalker

folks, this thread scares me.

I had the swift & SX4 in good respects. I have heard some mentions here and there about rattles and build quality - never thought it was this bad. Downright scary for any prospective buyer, if u ask me !

This is exactly the reason why i did react, now if everyone of us started writing souped up reviews then half of population can be scared away from any manufacturer. lol

Chill, it aint that bad. There are couple of millions of Maruti owners who are still having ball of a time with the cars