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Old 13th May 2008, 23:08   #121
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Originally Posted by GTO View Post
• Persistent (and significant) rattles in first couple of thousand kilometers.
This is definitely inconsistent quality control. I too had few rattles just before third service. But fortunately all are fixed now. But let me tell you guys, the more you accessorise it, the more it rattles. E.g, faulty ICE player installation, etc


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Originally Posted by GTO View Post
• Uneven panel gaps
This is pretty much ignored in India. Even Taveras, Safaris, Innovas have it. Although there is no excuse, there is no demand to correct such things from common man. Conveniently ignored by Maruti too.
http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/indian...ian-autos.html (Quality Issue with Indian autos.)

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Originally Posted by GTO View Post
• Parts falling off
This is quite rare I guess reported by fewer members on this forum. But to me, the power window switches are small delicate parts and should be handles with more care.

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Originally Posted by GTO View Post
• Poor NVH (e.g. Horn is too loud on the inside)
No, I don't think this is true. The Swift original horn is extremely weak. I have a more powerful horn and I don't think so. I specifically tried it today after reading this post yesterday. Although the noise dampening is not the best in business, it is definitely not too poor. Atleast in the Swift D. Haven't examined these in Swift P or SX4.


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Originally Posted by GTO View Post
• Interior part quality sucks
Although this is quite true in SX4, it isn't very true in the Swifts. It is a nice clean dashboard. Quite acceptable at this price point I think.


To conclude, price is definitely Maruti's trump card. People will buy this 'trusted' brand as long as they save a few thousands. But that said, these are minor niggles that people think they will be able to live with. Each brand has its positives and negatives and people who will be able to live with the negatives(and love the positives) buy the car. Ultimtely, what you pay is what you get. You cannot have your cake and eat it too.
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Old 14th May 2008, 00:12   #122
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Originally Posted by GTO View Post
What makes you think they don't already have staff screening the internet. And more relevant to us, Team-BHP?
Well in that case I am even more glad / proud to be a member here and hopefully if I have a problem regarding some dealer or car I shall be more than glad to use this forum as a communication means.

GTO - I still feel that some car manufacturers still do not take Indian Consumers very seriously.

I sincerely hope they start doing so real soon. Some attitudes of car dealers are really disgusting ( This is only said for Car Dealers and not manufacturers )
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Old 14th May 2008, 09:43   #123
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Originally Posted by supremeBaleno View Post
IIRC, it was about a Safari - I did read it when it came up, but did not bookmark it. Search and you will find.
OT: Exactly! It was not a turbo failure, that's the point I was trying to make. Do read below at your leisure.......it was a cracked rubber tubing.

http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/techni...er-tubing.html (Turbocharger failure in new safari 2.2VTT(Edit: Solved; only a cracked rubber tubing))

cheers:

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Originally Posted by srijit View Post
I think that the Swift too can be given the benefit of doubt. But for cars like SX4, what is the excuse for the quality? Why does it rattle after 5K or 10K kms? I think that is what Maruti needs to adress. And if that "adressing" trickles down towards the Swift and Alto, more power to them
Srijit, I couldn't have expressed it better myself. There is a lot less that people can ignore once we move up the segments. And hopefully Maruti will realize this sooner rather than later. But its good to see a lot of Swift & SX4 owners candidly sharing their experiences here, the more the merrier I feel & the consumer is the gainer.

Last edited by suman : 14th May 2008 at 09:47.
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Old 14th May 2008, 09:53   #124
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Originally Posted by blue_pulsar
To conclude, price is definitely Maruti's trump card. People will buy this 'trusted' brand as long as they save a few thousands. But that said, these are minor niggles that people think they will be able to live with. Each brand has its positives and negatives and people who will be able to live with the negatives(and love the positives) buy the car. Ultimtely, what you pay is what you get. You cannot have your cake and eat it too.
I don't agree with living with niggles and the price part, when it comes to a Swift (maybe for a M800, but not the Swift).

A car rattling is not a done thing, especially a hatch costing 5lakhs. They need to fix it. And it is not as if the Swift is the cheapest in its segment, giving it a price advantage. The Indica is as much spacious (or even more) and almost similar specs for the petrol version (the Swift might be a little more powerful with more cc). And you know what, the Indica costs much lesser. We should be able to have the cake and eat it too, if we are paying 5lakhs for the cake.

BTW, you did not mention about another grouse reported by GTO, the low-rpm throttle response. What is your take on that ? I found our car crappy in that respect - almost no juice at low rpms, requires constant gear changes, no fun on highways etc. I am wondering if it is just an issue with our Swift or is the same for all of them. So, would like to have your take on that.

While a comparo with the Baleno is not fair, just to illustrate, today on my way to work, there is slight traffic and I am in 3rd gear @ rpm of 750-800 (normal idling rpm) and the car is pulling effortlessly. The traffic clears and I dab the accelerator and I am off, no strain nothing. This would be impossible on our Swift. Below 1000rpm, the car is like dead.

Quote:
Originally Posted by suman
It was not a turbo failure, that's the point I was trying to make. Do read below at your leisure.......it was a cracked rubber tubing.
The thread did start off as a turbo-failure & the title also indicates that. Even if it was finally diagnosed to be something else, the point is that this issue came up in a 2-day old car costing close to 10lacs, leading to not being able to use the car. Even if not a TC failure, it cannot be termed a niggle by any stretch of imagination and IMO is much more serious than a rattle.

Last edited by supremeBaleno : 14th May 2008 at 10:03.
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Old 14th May 2008, 11:23   #125
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Originally Posted by aaggoswami View Post
[b]Yes sales have dropped and the real advantage has gone to Verna ( Rs. 55000 discount avaliable ).
The Verna & NHC, both, have seen increased sales. It might do well to refer to the fact that Jan / Feb 2008 (not sure which month) recorded the highest ever sales for the NHC. And it was the segment best seller....selling a far higher number than the Verna. That says a lot about what the market thinks of the product.

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Honda came with ABS and with their overpricing, are still cheating Indians.
Agreed with the overpricing, but certainly not cheating. Any seller is free to set a price for their product, the buyer has the option to buy it or not. Honda isn't stuffing NHC's down anyones throat. We live in the worlds largest democracy and do have a choice.

Quote:
My point was that, yes there are quality issues, but they are not present in sufficient quantity and quality to raise question.
Obviously, my and your views differ on this. To me, the Swift is a premium hatch and such slack on sheer quality is inexcusable. Ditto for the SX4 which is a 7 - 8 lakh rupee sedan. Lack of refinement and finesse in an 8 lakh car? Definitely not my cup of tea.

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May be traffic conditions
As you would know, Mumbai has amongst the worst traffic conditions. And my cars use the same road as that of everyone else.

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But does it mean that the problem can be ignored? That too a serious problem that should have been tested by Honda.
Obviously not. No problem / shortcoming of any Indian car should be ignored on Team-BHP. Please search through long-term reports of the NHC....I am sure you will see owners highlighting all the problems that exist with that car.

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What I am trying to prove is that the problems faced are not that serious to make us panic.
I don't see any panic at my end, do you?

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Again my other point is that the interior fit and finish and build quality is bad.
I fail to understand you. What exactly are you saying? Some posts, you say that the build quality is not bad....and then, you come back with statements like these that say the build quality is bad? Please stick to one point of view.
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Old 14th May 2008, 11:33   #126
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Originally Posted by blue_pulsar View Post
This is pretty much ignored in India. Even Taveras, Safaris, Innovas have it. Although there is no excuse, there is no demand to correct such things from common man. Conveniently ignored by Maruti too.
The examples you give are that of MUV's. Surely there is a difference between the expectations of an utility vehicle and a premium hatch / sedan. For instance, the SX4 is a 7 lakh rupee sedan. Inconsistent quality is simply disappointing.

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Originally Posted by vkochar View Post
GTO - I still feel that some car manufacturers still do not take Indian Consumers very seriously.
The smart ones already do, vkochar. Maruti does this best, and is thus at the top of the customer satisfaction charts. Those who don't lie (permanently) at the bottom. For instance, Skoda. You'd think that everyone at Skoda is either deaf, dumb or blind. Maybe they have just gotten immune to customer complaints and will rely on diesel FE & a sturdy build to survive. Everything else be damned.

On the other hand, consider the peculiar condition of Mercedes Benz. Their cars are far from trouble-free, yet their after-sales service is so good, you will find very few owners (like me, Sahil etc.) complaining. Mercedes is reportedly working hard toward getting the quality of the good 'ol days back. If and when they do, Merc will be simply unbeatable in their segment.

Quote:
Originally Posted by supremeBaleno View Post
BTW, you did not mention about another grouse reported by GTO, the low-rpm throttle response. What is your take on that ? I found our car crappy in that respect - almost no juice at low rpms, requires constant gear changes, no fun on highways etc. I am wondering if it is just an issue with our Swift or is the same for all of them.
That is an old complaint with the Esteem engine...lack of low-end juice. You had to wring the Esteem engine too.
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Old 14th May 2008, 13:43   #127
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GTO you have grabbed what is called in hindi "Bimari ki naas". I have 10 Years old esteem, though am still in love with it. But when I Drove 10 year old Honda city, I saw the difference. Difference in everything. Pick up, Clutch, Ride comfort. And mind you I am very particular towards car maintanance and service. New owners of both the cars might not see much difference beween them when new.

Anyway. Dont know why this low quality trend is picking up. I mostly blame consumers. Why did they buy low quality swifts and not good quality getz?
Now getz is being discontinued. Which really hurts me as i made up my mind to buy it. But not now, no way am going for swift after the problems mentioned so I am kind of stuck to wait for new models to launch.

Last edited by somebodystopme : 14th May 2008 at 13:44.
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Old 14th May 2008, 14:45   #128
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Originally Posted by somebodystopme View Post
GTO you have grabbed what is called in hindi "Bimari ki naas". I have 10 Years old esteem, though am still in love with it. But when I Drove 10 year old Honda city, I saw the difference. Difference in everything. Pick up, Clutch, Ride comfort. And mind you I am very particular towards car maintanance and service. New owners of both the cars might not see much difference beween them when new.
Excuse me, esteem and city comparison, bravo its light year difference, any day, any age of car! or is its just me?

Or did you mean the car aging process?
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Old 14th May 2008, 14:56   #129
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Originally Posted by Jaggu View Post
Excuse me, esteem and city comparison, bravo its light year difference, any day, any age of car! or is its just me?

Or did you mean the car aging process?
I am talking about ageing process.

I test Drive new Honda city and New Esteem A year back and didnt find much difference I am talking more about Comfort than anything else.

I know techically there must be Loads of specification difference in two But when they are new its tough for me to find the difference but like after 10 years you can make out the difference just by sitting for a minute in Honda. When you compare it with Esteem.
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Old 14th May 2008, 14:59   #130
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Originally Posted by somebodystopme View Post
Anyway. Dont know why this low quality trend is picking up. I mostly blame consumers. Why did they buy low quality swifts and not good quality getz?
Now getz is being discontinued. Which really hurts me as i made up my mind to buy it. But not now, no way am going for swift after the problems mentioned so I am kind of stuck to wait for new models to launch.
Not everyone would like to buy a good quality car with bad FE, less fun and more money.
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Old 14th May 2008, 15:17   #131
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Originally Posted by somebodystopme View Post
I am talking about ageing process.

I test Drive new Honda city and New Esteem A year back and didnt find much difference I am talking more about Comfort than anything else.

I know techically there must be Loads of specification difference in two But when they are new its tough for me to find the difference but like after 10 years you can make out the difference just by sitting for a minute in Honda. When you compare it with Esteem.
hmm got your point, but sorry i feel esteem and city definitely feel and are miles apart even if the drive is right in front of factory production line. There is a generation difference in design (age and segment wise) and hence my comment.

Esteem was late 80's design where as the first model city was mid 90's design, if am not mistaken. Also esteem Vx was 5.25 lakhs and honda 1.3 the cheapest was around 6.7 lakhs at that time. Yes Honda were more VFM then i guess, still esteem's sold

Last edited by Jaggu : 14th May 2008 at 15:20. Reason: Adding clarity to price part ;)
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Old 14th May 2008, 15:47   #132
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Every time the mechanic tries something new to fix the rattling, the sound will disappear for first two or three days like a calm before storm. I gave up fixing the rattling issues in my Swift.

Sometimes I desperately put my hands on the power window panels to arrest the rattling to some extent to minimize the embarrassment.

Panel gaps create lots of sounds even of well paved roads. Dealer has recommended to replace the complete panel (inside part of door) for which he quoted Rs.25k. Do not know whether its for a single door or for a pair.

Clutch shuderring/low end torque is other two problems, but not pinching to the extent of rattles
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Old 14th May 2008, 16:24   #133
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Sorry for going OT...
Quote:
Originally Posted by GTO View Post
For instance, Skoda. You'd think that everyone at Skoda is either deaf, dumb or blind. Maybe they have just gotten immune to customer complaints and will rely on diesel FE & a sturdy build to survive. Everything else be damned.
Want to hear the really sad part of this?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Teletextcars.co.uk
# New Octavia is Auto Express’ Driver Power Best Car 2008
# Škoda is second ranked car manufacturer out of 37
# 96% of respondents praised Octavia for practicality
Source

Quote:
Originally Posted by BBC
Despite all the jokes that used to diss Skoda, it’s come in second behind Lexus as the best car in What Car? magazine.
Since ad campaigns which laughed at its own dodgy image, the manufacturer’s beaten Saab, Jaguar and BMW to the silver medal for customer satisfaction. Land Rovers and Alfa Romeos came last.
Source

Looks like they are listening in other countries but not in India.

I wont ever buy a Skoda until their After Sales improves. Which is a pity cos I love their cars.
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Old 14th May 2008, 19:27   #134
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Some suggestions that might help, inline.

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Originally Posted by Surprise View Post
Every time the mechanic tries something new to fix the rattling, the sound will disappear for first two or three days like a calm before storm. I gave up fixing the rattling issues in my Swift.

Get good quality foam, pack it inside the door pad so that they tighten the door pad fitment. Tighten the base where glass is held in place on the winder assembly, dont overdo it also, cos it can break the glass. Put some Fevibond also.

Pad up other loose articles like wiring and door lock rods at places where there are chances of hitting the metal body, cable ties will help. Whole job will cost you some 500 bucks if done through a local garage or accessory shop. This is not expensive damping am talking about. Damping will help reduce road noise though.


Sometimes I desperately put my hands on the power window panels to arrest the rattling to some extent to minimize the embarrassment.

The base tightening helps, but rattling when half wound is an issue since the glass runners are not that tight (especially if one uses the glass winders often, i rarely wind down and maybe reason why i dont face this issue). This is more of tolerance issue which only Maruti can address.

Panel gaps create lots of sounds even of well paved roads. Dealer has recommended to replace the complete panel (inside part of door) for which he quoted Rs.25k. Do not know whether its for a single door or for a pair.

More to do with door lock/hinge settings and show beading alignment. If set properly it will give a nice tight lock. Plus side- doors sound good while closing, nice thud. Negative is doors become harder to close, the trick is to find the correct balance. Patient body shop guy will do it for 200 bucks.

Clutch shuderring/low end torque is other two problems, but not pinching to the extent of rattles

Weak clutch, while replacing on wear out opt for a upgrade, clutch action will become harder but will solve the judder. Again setting on stock clutch can reduce the issue, also the way the clutch is activated has lots to do with this. Low end grunt buy a diesel or opt for some nice headers.
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Old 14th May 2008, 20:39   #135
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Originally Posted by GTO View Post


Agreed with the overpricing, but certainly not cheating. Any seller is free to set a price for their product, the buyer has the option to buy it or not. Honda isn't stuffing NHC's down anyones throat. We live in the worlds largest democracy and do have a choice.
Change that to irritating slow consumer courts and lack of awareness.



Quote:
Originally Posted by GTO View Post
Obviously not. No problem / shortcoming of any Indian car should be ignored on Team-BHP. Please search through long-term reports of the NHC....I am sure you will see owners highlighting all the problems that exist with that car.
I really appreciate this point, and thats why I am on Team-BHP.



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Originally Posted by GTO View Post
I don't see any panic at my end, do you?
NEVER.



Quote:
Originally Posted by GTO View Post
I fail to understand you. What exactly are you saying? Some posts, you say that the build quality is not bad....and then, you come back with statements like these that say the build quality is bad? Please stick to one point of view.
I define the build quality in two ways:
Parameter no. 1) Interior build quality and fit&finish.

Parameter no. 2)General built quality that includes suspenison longivity, powertrains ( just engine and gearbox ), brakes, and chassis parameters like stiffness, handling, safety( both active and passive ),etc.

I repeat again, parameter no.1 i.e. Interior build quality and fit&finish, is not good, but


parameter no 2. i.e. General built quality that includes suspenison longivity, powertrains ( just engine and gearbox ), brakes, and chassis parameters like stiffness, handling, etc is good in both SX4/Swift.
So its clear that why my post read like that.


Quote:
Originally Posted by somebodystopme View Post
GTO you have grabbed what is called in hindi "Bimari ki naas". I have 10 Years old esteem, though am still in love with it. But when I Drove 10 year old Honda city, I saw the difference. Difference in everything. Pick up, Clutch, Ride comfort. And mind you I am very particular towards car maintanance and service. New owners of both the cars might not see much difference beween them when new.

Anyway. Dont know why this low quality trend is picking up. I mostly blame consumers. Why did they buy low quality swifts and not good quality getz?
Now getz is being discontinued. Which really hurts me as i made up my mind to buy it. But not now, no way am going for swift after the problems mentioned so I am kind of stuck to wait for new models to launch.
Are you sure that Esteem and Honda City both faced the same amount of stress through out their 10 year journey on the road ? There have to be certain standards about how the cars were used. How a car is used, where is it mostly driven, etc are the points that have to be considered.

Quote:
Originally Posted by somebodystopme View Post
Why did they buy low quality swifts and not good quality getz? .
Why people bought NHC without ABS and then complained about the poor braking? Can you raise this question? Why did they just abandon buying NHC till they came up with ABS. Again Hyundai Verna had ABS on offer.
So why they bought NHC and not ABS laden Verna?
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