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Old 18th May 2008, 10:01   #16
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Glad, I am not in metro.
This is what I call " Official robbery " from the government.
The basic reason for this move is, I believe, the taxes of government.
Now the people in the metros will be literally robbed at fuel stations.
Plus add the fact that majority of the engines even the NHC iDsi is designed for 87 Octane RON, so there wont be that much real advantage.

Almost 50 rs. we pay for each ltr of claimed 87 Octane RON ( the actual number avaliabe to us is less octane ), around 35 rupees goes to the government for taxes.

And again I believe that the premium are upto the ranking ( i.e. really premium and upto the claimed octane ) to atleast give us what we deserve after paying the high price. Now as soon as Euro4 is implemented in metros, Euro 3 will be implemented in all over the country. Then everyone will have to buy the PREMIUM FUEL, going by the present standards. And thats even bigger robbery.
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Old 18th May 2008, 10:56   #17
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I remember reading on another thread. One of our members was at a petrol pump when the daily filling of fuel from the tanker was taking place.
When our member enquired with the driver as to how did he know whether it was indeed premium fuel he was filling in the underground tank, he said, they fill in any available tank.

Unquote: Its possible that regular fuel is filled in premium dispensers and sold as premium fuel. How do we verify? Scary, but this is a possibility too.
Ive stopped filling premium from my diesel days when i noticed that strangely, my mileage dropped with turbojet diesel. While the difference between premium and regular diesel is less than a rupee, in Petrol, the difference is close to 4 rupees.
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Old 18th May 2008, 11:05   #18
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I read this in today's TOI.

Actually Branded Fuel can be sold for whatever amount the companies decide. So get ready for at least a hike of 10 % ( 5 rs ) if this thing kicks in.

Remember Reliance - 61 Rs. For Petrol !!! ( See Pic of a Reliance Pump I clicked when in Rajasthan in March 08 - Rs. 60.83 a Litre )

Result - No one bought from them !! It's closed for good I think.
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Old 19th May 2008, 02:52   #19
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Look at the other side too.

The oil companies are in a big mess right now with all the under recoveries. Finally its gonna be us the tax payers who are going to suffer with higher government deficits and increased future credit squeezes if costs are not passed thru to the consumers.

Also, considering how most of our businessmen (including doctors/lawyers) will try every trick in the book to not pay taxes, the petrol/diesel taxes are needed to pay up for running the government including subsidizing kerosene/lpg and what not.

Making premium fuel mandatory would atleast reduce some pollution and offset some of the losses of the oil companies.

Else there is a good chance of our state owned companies not even having any working capital to get the crude into the country and then we will have to be ready to wait in queues to get rationed petrol/diesel soon. I would rather pay more and not face any supply shock.

Dark days of socialism coming back to haunt us again....
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Old 19th May 2008, 08:33   #20
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As someone said that this is day light robbery and I agree with him on that. However, on the other hand, increase in fuel price means increase in usage of public transport. Govt and other public utility guys, please gear up!!!
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Old 19th May 2008, 08:33   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sahakar View Post
Look at the other side too.

The oil companies are in a big mess right now with all the under recoveries. Finally its gonna be us the tax payers who are going to suffer with higher government deficits and increased future credit squeezes if costs are not passed thru to the consumers.

Also, considering how most of our businessmen (including doctors/lawyers) will try every trick in the book to not pay taxes, the petrol/diesel taxes are needed to pay up for running the government including subsidizing kerosene/lpg and what not.

Making premium fuel mandatory would atleast reduce some pollution and offset some of the losses of the oil companies.

Else there is a good chance of our state owned companies not even having any working capital to get the crude into the country and then we will have to be ready to wait in queues to get rationed petrol/diesel soon. I would rather pay more and not face any supply shock.

Dark days of socialism coming back to haunt us again....
You mean to say that the honest persons who are paying tax have to suffer more? yes that is the truth atleast in India. The government wont cut tax, most of the people wont pay tax, and those who pay tax have to suffer.

The pollution part is one part I dont agree with you. All the modern engines sold in India are tuned for 87 Octane RON. Even if they run on 91/93/98 octane, there wont be any real gain. There are suppossed to be uniform laws accross the country, so that manufacturers can tune their engines as per standards.
The present generation of automobiles and two wheelers are designed to meet Euro3 ( present in 13 maga cities of India ) with 87 Octane RON, not 91 or above.

Thirdly, I doubt the quality of premium fuels from government controlled companies. Rather than using better refining techniquies, they go on to add aditives and then sell the fuel. I dont think that addtitives are required for an engine to meet Euro3. The gain in fuel effeciency will be negligble because of engine tune/design plus the increased evoporation ( correct if I am wrong on evoporation part ).

This is another form of corruption, nothing more.
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Old 19th May 2008, 08:38   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by amtak View Post
As someone said that this is day light robbery and I agree with him on that. However, on the other hand, increase in fuel price means increase in usage of public transport. Govt and other public utility guys, please gear up!!!
Public transport has to be in proper condition and must have very high level of penetration in the areas of cities.
The condition of public transport is really bad. Usually the seat covers are torn by public only. The end result is that public transport is not comfortable ( I am definately not demanding S-Class comfort ), ineffecient as far as time part is concerned, plus not having a wide reach.

If the public transport user's discipline is developed and the effeciency is increased then, its good.

But indirectly forcing humans to use horrible public trasnport by increasing or selling just premium fuels is nothing but "Official Crime ".
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Old 19th May 2008, 09:56   #23
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I was forced to fill my tank with XTra Premium in IOC since the normal fuel was not there. Though i am personally upset, the Oil Marketing Companies do not have any choice.
The price of a product should meet the rules of "Demand and Supply". when coffee prices shot up in 90s, people reduced their coffee or switched over to Tea. If Govt keeps the price of petrol and diesel artificially low, there will be no attempt by people to reduce their consumption.
consider this, international oil price has almost doubled and our prices have gone up by some 4%.
If Govt wants to minimize the burden on common man, they must bear the subsidy burden and not place it on the OMCs. the result is they end up in loss, Govt does some trick by releasing oil bonds (again the tax payers money is used without them realizing) and the private guys shut shop. this is not good for the economy.
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Old 19th May 2008, 09:59   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aaggoswami View Post
Public transport has to be in proper condition and must have very high level of penetration in the areas of cities.
The condition of public transport is really bad. Usually the seat covers are torn by public only. The end result is that public transport is not comfortable ( I am definately not demanding S-Class comfort ), ineffecient as far as time part is concerned, plus not having a wide reach.

If the public transport user's discipline is developed and the effeciency is increased then, its good.

But indirectly forcing humans to use horrible public trasnport by increasing or selling just premium fuels is nothing but "Official Crime ".
I agree with you on this. However, are we left with any choice? I cannot fill in petrol in my car at 60 bucks plus I need to pay the toll too. This increase my running costs and I would any day prefer to travel in the AC bus provided they are available in plenty. Further, thank god that there's nothing called as "premium CNG" else the rickshaw and taxi's would also ask for a wage increase.
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Old 19th May 2008, 10:14   #25
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Correction, Indian Unleaded Petrol specifications as per Euro III are:

RON(min): 91(regular) 95(Premium)
MON(min): 81(regular) 85(Premium)

Premium fuel was never never marketed for meeting Emission norms, it was marketed for better performance and mileage.

Oil companies have to meet these norms with regular fuel only.


Quote:
Originally Posted by aaggoswami View Post
The present generation of automobiles and two wheelers are designed to meet Euro3 ( present in 13 maga cities of India ) with 87 Octane RON, not 91 or above.

Thirdly, I doubt the quality of premium fuels from government controlled companies. Rather than using better refining techniquies, they go on to add aditives and then sell the fuel. I dont think that addtitives are required for an engine to meet Euro3. The gain in fuel effeciency will be negligble because of engine tune/design plus the increased evoporation ( correct if I am wrong on evoporation part ).
That should be the focus of the govt, to develop and run a secure and clean public transport, in which we are already 10 years late.

Example: London city has one of the best public transport network and most people including senior executives use it during the week, using their private cars only on the weekends. can you even imagine when it first started operations ????.... 1863

Quote:
Originally Posted by amtak View Post
I agree with you on this. However, are we left with any choice? I cannot fill in petrol in my car at 60 bucks plus I need to pay the toll too. This increase my running costs and I would any day prefer to travel in the AC bus provided they are available in plenty. Further, thank god that there's nothing called as "premium CNG" else the rickshaw and taxi's would also ask for a wage increase.

Last edited by dadu : 19th May 2008 at 10:19.
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Old 19th May 2008, 10:14   #26
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last week when i went to fill up diesel to my car from IOC which is on St Marks Road they said they have stopped selling normal diesel and only Premium diesel was available. Feel IOC have already implemented this in BLR :(
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Old 19th May 2008, 10:15   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by suvi View Post
I was forced to fill my tank with XTra Premium in IOC since the normal fuel was not there. Though i am personally upset, the Oil Marketing Companies do not have any choice.
The price of a product should meet the rules of "Demand and Supply". when coffee prices shot up in 90s, people reduced their coffee or switched over to Tea. If Govt keeps the price of petrol and diesel artificially low, there will be no attempt by people to reduce their consumption.
consider this, international oil price has almost doubled and our prices have gone up by some 4%.
If Govt wants to minimize the burden on common man, they must bear the subsidy burden and not place it on the OMCs. the result is they end up in loss, Govt does some trick by releasing oil bonds (again the tax payers money is used without them realizing) and the private guys shut shop. this is not good for the economy.
Rs. 50/ltr of petrol and 35 rs. go to government. What is this?! The oil bonds are such that, even if the cost of crude oil goes up in the world, a speicific person/company/counrty will provide oil for three years( India has three year bond ) at a fixed price ( the price will be fixed at the time when the deal is made).

You are competely right, this is not good for economy. Without necessacity we are made to do this.

Quote:
Originally Posted by amtak View Post
I agree with you on this. However, are we left with any choice? I cannot fill in petrol in my car at 60 bucks plus I need to pay the toll too. This increase my running costs and I would any day prefer to travel in the AC bus provided they are available in plenty. Further, thank god that there's nothing called as "premium CNG" else the rickshaw and taxi's would also ask for a wage increase.
Yes, and we must not expect government to give us very effecient public transport. If premium CNG be avaliable from government as premium fuel is avaliable, that would mean disaster.

I really fail to understand that are we sold premium fuel?
Cost of fuel lets say Rs. 50 for petrol with subsidy. Then in case of premium fuel, they ( Oil companies ) must add additives ( actually the refining process must be the way to produce higher octane fuel, but this will cost more, so in INdia they add additives ), so the cost of fuel increases. Now if the input cost in making the fuel increases, so does the output. So how do the companies make more profit ? Or we are charged more than what we must pay for a given quality, in this case premium fuel. End result is corruption.

Looks like they sell substandard fuel under the brand of premium fuels. Then only they can make profit.

Last edited by aaggoswami : 19th May 2008 at 10:17.
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Old 19th May 2008, 10:26   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dadu View Post
Correction, Indian Unleaded Petrol specifications as per Euro III are:

RON(min): 91(regular) 95(Premium)
MON(min): 81(regular) 85(Premium)

Premium fuel was never never marketed for meeting Emission norms, it was marketed for better performance and mileage.

Oil companies have to meet these norms with regular fuel only.
You have provided correct information.
My point was that the automobile manufacturers ( both, 4 wheeler and two wheeler ) have designed the engines to meet Euro 3 with 87 Octane RON, so they they can sell uniform vehicles all over india and thus they can reduce cost. We have Euro 3 Baleno ( october 2005 ) and are using 87 octane fuel. So the engine is so tuned that even with 87 octane fuel, it wil emit less exhasut and fuel effecieny wont be affected with 87 fuel.
This came with to cost of some power ( 91bhp in Euro 3), but then if we use 91/93 octane fuel, our effecieny does not go up significantly, so what is point in using premium fuel.

The solution is uniform implementation of emession norms and avaliability of good quality fuel without any significant increase in fuel cost. Selling premium fuels is like having good roads at very high prices and otherwise very bad roads.
So there is no need to force premium fuel.





Quote:
Originally Posted by dadu View Post
That should be the focus of the govt, to develop and run a secure and clean public transport, in which we are already 10 years late.

Example: London city has one of the best public transport network and most people including senior executives use it during the week, using their private cars only on the weekends.

We are more than 10 years late in case of public transport.
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Old 19th May 2008, 10:38   #29
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The reality is that 100+ $ crude is here to stay. It is high time that the government come up with some solution to attack the problem of ever rising fuel subsidy. They need to make it more targetted, there is no reason that an individual in a 10 lakh + car who can easily afford a 20% increase in price gets more subsidy than a poor man earning 10000 pm and driving a TVS 50.

I feel that the oil companies should issue some kind of smart card to each vehicle owner, to track the consumption of fuel by an individual. They should then allow a free float of the fuel price. Link this card to the individual's PAN and set some rules for the extent of subsidy that you get. E.g. a person with an annual income of <2l can get 10l/month, someone with >10l gets no subsidy etc. The exact details may need to be worked out, I think we have enough smart people who can come up with a workable model.
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Old 19th May 2008, 10:40   #30
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I remember when I got my car slightly more than 3 years ago, during its first service, the advisor asked me; "what fuel do I put in my car?", and my reply was - Speed. Not recommended! That was the reply that my service advisor gave me. He argument was, my car is brand new and it does not need any additives. He further said, that it won't make any difference to the mileage/fuel consumption or performance as the engine being new would obviously perform better! Since then, I rarely filled in Speed.
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