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Old 16th June 2008, 16:54   #61
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Originally Posted by theMAG View Post
Much as this move is currently distasteful, this could very well be just the 1st step in varied taxation based on fuel efficiency of vehicles in India.
Do we already have a difference in taxation between Petrol and Diesel models ? It would be a better move, since Diesel costs less and diesel vehicles deliver better FE.
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Old 16th June 2008, 17:14   #62
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What exactly the government calls this 'extra tax'?

Is it green tax, pollution tax, something on this line??

Is this phenomenon similar to the birth of Kei cars in Japan.
A wikipedia link:
Kei car - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
If yes then I support this 'extra tax' if levied on Petrol cars more than 1500cc and Diesel cars more than 2000cc for time being and may be in future they can revise the capacities to even lower cc.
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Because the regulations only restrict physical size, engine displacement and power, manufacturers have introduced many advanced technologies to the class. As a result, kei cars are often available with forced induction engines, automatic and CVT transmissions, front-, rear- and four-wheel drive, hybrid drivetrains, air conditioning, GPS and many other features.
I think our government should look into this Kei Car and study its feasibility in our country.

EDIT:
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Originally Posted by Fountainheader View Post
Do we already have a difference in taxation between Petrol and Diesel models ? It would be a better move, since Diesel costs less and diesel vehicles deliver better FE.
May be the 1500cc is not justified for both petrol and diesel engines. But the subsidy on diesel is more than petrol. But majority of the diesel consumption is due to the goods transportation and taxi.

Last edited by kkr2k2 : 16th June 2008 at 17:17.
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Old 16th June 2008, 17:41   #63
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A few random thoughts:

Taxation and subsidies are always seen as imperfect entities. In a column I read recently, taxation should ideally be at point of expense and subsidies should be ideally cash. All savings should be focussed on investments and infrastructure, none towards covering fiscal deficits.

Given this, I think this round of taxation is good, but we should free petrol and diesel from subsidies and provide cash to those who are intended to receive benefits from subsidies. A free market economy would do this.

Also, be it taxes or fines, it should be strong enough to deter people and not just signal to people. But I think the Indian government would not do this since its too lenient on the middle class.
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Old 16th June 2008, 17:47   #64
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The class which is the biggest contributor to direct taxes is a victim of leniency... Gimme a break!
Whenever the govt falls short of money, they go ahead and tax the middle class. Sometimes its edu cess, sometimes it is monkey cess.
Middle class is expected to pay for everybody.
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Old 16th June 2008, 17:56   #65
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I don't feel the govt we are currently saddled with is an honest Govt. The fuel subsidies that are being spoken of are on the already taxed product.

the pre-subsidy taxes are profit for the Govt so all this talk of fuel subsidy is just an eyewash.

And yes, if there is any opportunity to tax the middle-class the current govt shall waste no time and do it. But any talk of 'corporate taxes' and they will start to balk and weave around the issue and wait for 2 days and announce cuts/relief measures etc.

Sometimes I feel the middle-class in major cities should also model themselves on the lines of Gujjars and hold the govt to ransom.
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Old 16th June 2008, 20:48   #66
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Originally Posted by hondadude View Post
In an ideal world that should happen but practically it is difficult to implement in India considering our penchant for bureaucracy. If done that way, it has the potential for delays and possibly corruption.
So the end result is that bringing up something improper is possible, but not a good thing. Show me one good thing government could implement in time. ABS ? GQ ? Fuel quality ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by hondadude View Post
Yes and I guess you conveniently overlooked .....
If a couple of hundred crores are practially nothing( as per your post ), then why add cess on already heaviely taxed product ? This is not looking like something that has come out of honesty. If they were really honest, they would have by now made car wise testing, rating and taxation.


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Originally Posted by aseem View Post
This will just deter the manf to bring higher capacity engine and performance cars. Implying we continue to drive the puny honda city's with 77 odd horses. Take for example Swift 1.3 Petrol, it came before the excise rebate for small cars with engines upto 1200cc. So we got a performance hatch in Swift before the hike. However cars that followed, like Aveo UVA etc. came with puny engines with 1200cc. Same trend would deter the new model of Honda City to have higher than 1500 cc engine and may force Honda to continue to old I-DSI engine in India whereas it might introduce a 1600 cc engine abroad.

The babus remain unaffected, driving around in imported BMW bought from our hard earned taxes!!!
Only the Indian middle class whose hard earned money goes wasted. We can easily implement good rules like Kei cars, but for that we need excellent infrastructure.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kkr2k2 View Post
What exactly the government calls this 'extra tax'?

Is it green tax, pollution tax, something on this line??

Is this phenomenon similar to the birth of Kei cars in Japan.
A wikipedia link:
Kei car - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
If yes then I support this 'extra tax' if levied on Petrol cars more than 1500cc and Diesel cars more than 2000cc for time being and may be in future they can revise the capacities to even lower cc.
I think our government should look into this Kei Car and study its feasibility in our country.

EDIT:

May be the 1500cc is not justified for both petrol and diesel engines. But the subsidy on diesel is more than petrol. But majority of the diesel consumption is due to the goods transportation and taxi.

As above. We need much better infrastructure and disciplined drivers being churned out of RTO before the Kei car rules come into existence. Also we have relatively longer distance to travel on out door trips so that should also be considered. Or else,any thing you do for the good, will be just useless within no time.
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Old 16th June 2008, 22:23   #67
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I guess Maruti should bring in the supercharged engines that they use in their cars in Japan. They are just 660cc and produce somewhere around 50bhp I guess.
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Old 16th June 2008, 22:30   #68
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Originally Posted by blue_pulsar View Post
I guess Maruti should bring in the supercharged engines that they use in their cars in Japan. They are just 660cc and produce somewhere around 50bhp I guess.
More than 50 bhp. The present Alto that we have, in its high spec form produced 64bhp from around 660cc.
They have great engines there in and if Japan's Kei rules are applied straight way, Suzuki will have most advantage.

At least will have less scope of finding excuses to add cess on cars.
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Old 17th June 2008, 02:15   #69
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Originally Posted by SumitB View Post
Realistically, I do agree that the prices of petrol and diesel in India is still on the lower side, but that said, I also believe that if the govt. is going to raise prices, then it should also raise the price of kerosine, even if it does so by 1 rupee. That way, we can say that okay, the oil companies was bleeding and so this had to happen. But by raising the prices of petrol, diesel and LPG and now this excise duty hike on larger cars and at the same time excluding kerosine, and smaller cars, the govt. is demonstrating nothing but an example of Vote Bank Politics. If the law is to be applied, it has to be done to all. They cannot exclude a certain group of people. Thats gross injustice.
Hello?

I am sorry to say this but your statement is very selfish and narrow minded. India is still poor country where 40-50% people are still living bellow poverty line and more then 35% people eat food only 1 time in a day. All these people use kerosene for heating and not LPG gas. Hiking kerosene prices will directly hit these extremely poor people.

I also do not like this government basically due to unable to prevent inflection since beginning of its rules (inflection started in 2004 and not in 2008) and bringing more reservation in this country but I fully support governments decision for hiking excise duty on cars.

India is poor nation and we are net oil importers. We do not need more cars. If we will bring more cars in our country, it will just add to our fuel bills and all hard earned money will go out from the country just for paying energy bills.


Person buying Rs.800,000 car will still be able to buy Rs.820,000 car because overall installment will increase just by Rs.100-200 / month. Now IMO, thats not big amount you are paying for running big air conditioner car where as 50% of your nations people can not even get meal 2 times a day.

Yes, I may caution about how government is going to spend those rs.20000 but thats totally another topic.
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Old 17th June 2008, 02:24   #70
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Originally Posted by flyingspur View Post
I think they should strip and parade us all naked and take whatever little money we have left.
?
Quote:
Originally Posted by SumitB View Post
/quote
I think they should strip and parade us all naked and take whatever little money we have left.
quote/

Even then, the govt. will tax us and term it as Entertainment Tax.

The raise in excise and the cut in customs duty for the flat iron is with immediate effect. However, if you were to book a the Verna tomorrow and get it delivered by Sunday, then chances are that you will get the old prices. The car companies should in theory should be paying excise to the govt. when a vehicle leaves the factory. As such, the dealer's stock should be on the old excise rate.
Well, I just want bring it to your attention that India still has low amount of taxes then some developed foreign countries (example, In Canada, you pay up to 50% Income tax if you are rich person (you are rich in India thus driving sx4 ).

And even people falling in tax brackets honestly pay their taxes? Hell not! no way!. I am sure there are millions of people who do not pay income tax at all although they fall under tax payers category.

The problem is not with the taxes, taxes are good for the people of nation, the problem is proper utilization of taxes. I feel our government is not spending tax payers money properly but again thats another topic.
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Old 17th June 2008, 02:44   #71
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Originally Posted by amit View Post
If the government is serious about reducing fuel consumption, they would provide us with better road infrastructure which would automatically reduce fuel consumption.

On Friday morning, it took me an hour to drive about 90 kms from Vashi to Lonavla varying my speeds between 100-130 kmph on the expressway. The same day in the evening, it took me one and a half hours to drive about 20 kms from Churchgate to Chembur because of the non-existant roads in the financial capital of the country. Does the government realise how much fuel could be saved if cars could travel at a constant speed of about 70kmph compared to the 15kmph we do now within Mumbai city limits? Has the government or any independant organisation done any study to find out how much fuel could be saved with something as basic as better road infrastructure?

Forget roads, there is a pedestrian crossing under the BARC flyover while going towards Vashi. Most of the times there are no pedestrians waiting to cross the road. Still cars have to wait at traffic lights for them to turn green. Everyday I feel like a moron waiting for the lights to go green since most of the times there isn't even a crow waiting to cross the road. Imagine the fuel that could be saved by making traffic lights dynamic in all our cities.
Haha, then why you live in this overcrowded super expensive city?. All other people live here for same reason.


The problem is not only with roads the problem is with people driving on the roads. People in bombay (ops amchi mumbai) have no driving sense. Everybody (I mean everybody except those super extensive cars) drives there cars from left to right even on 5 lane express way just to go ahead of the vehicles. This creates tons of problems and traffic jams on roads. I don't even want to talk about auto riksha drivers. I never understand there driving style, its like they are out on the roads for blood or racing for Limca books of records or something!

I believe traffic police should strictly impose speed limits and lane changing rules on mumbai roads and specifically truck drivers who drive their heavy a$$ vehicles in first lane at 40kmph speed, other wise mumbai's traffic problems are not going away.

No comments about other cities in India.
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Old 17th June 2008, 08:10   #72
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Max - have you heard about bangalore drivers here are the kings of indiscipline !! Yesterday - the police were distributing some road rules flyers at inner ring road signals, which said, "lets follow rules and for few days we are in observe mode, post which we will start fining offenders" - I am happy they have taken such an initiative, but you can imagine for something as basic as fining offenders, they are giving flyers to inform/warn public before they start doing it i would say go ahead and fine these joker offenders (autos breaking signals, 2 wheelers changing lanes without signalling) and they will make much more money than 15k/20k per 1.5/2 ltr engine, which are way fewer than these offenders.
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Old 17th June 2008, 09:26   #73
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I think the first and foremost it to develop Lane disciplines with these Auto & BMTC guys. I know its next to impossible, but its very much needed. You go fast and stick to your lane, is much much safer than jumping between lanes and making others life miserable.
Next goes without saying. Yes, we ALL should adhere to the same lane principles
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Old 17th June 2008, 13:04   #74
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Originally Posted by Max View Post
Well, I just want bring it to your attention that India still has low amount of taxes then some developed foreign countries (example, In Canada, you pay up to 50% Income tax if you are rich person (you are rich in India thus driving sx4 ).

The problem is not with the taxes, taxes are good for the people of nation, the problem is proper utilization of taxes. I feel our government is not spending tax payers money properly but again thats another topic.
While it is true that developed nations like Canada, US, etc have higher taxes, the citizen also gets a return from the Govt by way of free schooling, unemployment dole, great roads and infrastructure. But in India, even when taxes are raised, the tax payer hardly gets any return. Most of the tax payers are salaried employees, while those who avoid taxes like shop owners, businessmen, etc are allowed to go scot-free. This is why it is wrong to compare with higher rate of taxation in developed countries.
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Old 17th June 2008, 13:36   #75
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Originally Posted by Max View Post
Haha, then why you live in this overcrowded super expensive city?.
I don't know why we take things so personally. Why can't criticism be taken constructively? What you are trying to say is if you don't like the road infrastructure you can leave this city but 'we' (government and people) will never improve? Tomorrow, if you go and complain about something to the authorities and they give you this line of 'leave if you dont like this city', how would you feel?! The day the government stops taking taxes, I will stop complaining about things. Thats the most ridiculous statement I have come across.

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The problem is not only with roads the problem is with people driving on the roads.
Seems like this post was written by some government employee! Everything is the fault of the people. The government has given us the idealistic, perfect country, it's we who are ruining it.

Despite my best attempts to drive according to rules, many times I am forced to break the rules because the roads are so poorly planned. Most of the traffic jams are due to poor road planning on part of the government. If there are potholes on the road, obviously traffic will slow down and there will be a jam. Pavements are full of slums, pedestrians are forced to walk on the road taking up one lane, the middle lane is used by public transit buses to pick up people and by auto's and taxi's to park and this leaves just one lane (where there are 3 laned roads) for moving traffic. Still it's out fault isnt it? Do you think the traffic situation got so worse one fine morning? The government failed to forsee how things will change with economic boom and now want to penalise us for buying cars?! See the Nano situation. The whole country knows this car is coming since past many years still the governent has not upgraded the roads. Tomorrow when the Nano comes there will be chaos on our roads and the government will probably think of some other way to penalise us. Take road constructions. Most of the times, there are no warning boards resulting in people having to change lanes at the last minute creating a funnel effect which results in traffic jams. Government authorises malls to come up on roads with barely any parking facility, entry/exit points and it's our fault that there are traffic jams! Since you talk about Canada, have you seen the approach roads to the Fairview Mall in Toronto? Even on boxing day, there was no traffic jam outside any mall over there.

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People in bombay (ops amchi mumbai) have no driving sense. Everybody (I mean everybody except those super extensive cars) drives there cars from left to right even on 5 lane express way just to go ahead of the vehicles. This creates tons of problems and traffic jams on roads. I don't even want to talk about auto riksha drivers. I never understand there driving style, its like they are out on the roads for blood or racing for Limca books of records or something!
People in India have no driving sense. People even in western countries have no driving sense. It's the licencing issuing system that has put driving sense into them. Alongwith that the government ensured that what is taught in driving tests is what is there on the roads. If the driving test teaches to stick to a lane the government ensured that there are visible lanes on all roads.

Quote:
I believe traffic police should strictly impose speed limits and lane changing rules on mumbai roads
Speed limits? Within Mumbai city, cars are anyway crawling at 15kmph how much slower can we go?!

I am all for speed limits but not the ridiculous ones like 30 and 50kmph ones. And what about the cops catching drivers for doing 51kmph in a 50kmph zone? As for lane changing, what lanes? How many roads have properly demarcated lanes? Let the government first do it's job and then teach us the rules.

Quote:
I just want bring it to your attention that India still has low amount of taxes then some developed foreign countries (example, In Canada, you pay up to 50% Income tax if you are rich person
If India can give me the facilities and infrastructure that Canada gives it's citizens, I am ready to pay 60% income tax.

Last edited by amit : 17th June 2008 at 13:40.
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