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Old 19th June 2008, 08:53   #31
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@ajibba - this should help you understand why GTO isn't fond of C Classes.
http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/indian...enz-india.html (My problems with the Mercedes C180. And Mercedes Benz India.)
http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/techni...itch-c220.html (And so it happens...First electronic glitch in the C220)
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Old 19th June 2008, 09:42   #32
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For me the most dependable cars in Indian automotive history is the Maruti 800 and Omni. It has indeed changed the way we travel though its being sidelined now. Still it is the first car for every person and i am sure every buyer will be emotionally attached with it.
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Old 19th June 2008, 12:17   #33
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One more point that this survey misses is, how do they consider a defect? I still remember that during my wife's learning times I have to replace the clutch on her zen in 3 months, and its not a defect on the car but because of poor handling of the car.

So, in short, if they take another random sample of people the outcome may be totally different.
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Old 19th June 2008, 12:22   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vinaykiran79
For me the most dependable cars in Indian automotive history is the Maruti 800 and Omni. It has indeed changed the way we travel though its being sidelined now. Still it is the first car for every person and i am sure every buyer will be emotionally attached with it.
While all the above in bold is more-or-less true, that is not what dependability is about and neither were any of these factors taken into the survey which we are debating here.

The survey starts off at the "Compact" segment. If they also had a "Really Compact" segment, you would have had the M800, Omni, Alto etc. But then with which other brands would you compare them with ? No one else has cars in that category, which is maybe why they chose to ignore the real-small cars. Maybe next year when the Nano is here, they would survey this category also.

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Originally Posted by phamilyman
Interesting chart. So JD power is no better than most rags .. er mags
Why would you say that sir ? I do not go by mags, but I believe these guys are pretty impartial.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GTO
A Mercedes C-Class in any "dependability" ranking should tell you that the study is crap.
But your C-class was just a one-off case, a lemon. Should we be extending the same ranking to all the C-classes ? We have MM's Fiesta-D which can be used as a synonym for unreliability, but it is just a one-off case and not true for all Fiesta-Ds.

But what I find wrong in this survey is that in the "Entry Luxury" segment, they did not include the Accord - they have the C-class, Camry and Sonata only. If Accord was there, I would guess it would have come up tops. Don't know why the Accord was not included.
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Old 19th June 2008, 12:40   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vinaykiran79 View Post
For me the most dependable cars in Indian automotive history is the Maruti 800 and Omni. It has indeed changed the way we travel though its being sidelined now. Still it is the first car for every person and i am sure every buyer will be emotionally attached with it.
Obviously M800 and Omni are dependable vehicles, even if you are stranded you can come out and push it yourself to a safer place
, cool, jokes aside, I have seen ford at many places being stranded in the middle of a highway, don't know the reason, and also saw Innovas but never a Skoda, I was in a critical position when my Chevy Lumina just went off at an high speed in the middle of the high speed lane in the middle east and the steering was literally locked and I had to pump the brakes several times since it didn't respond too, luckily my senses worked and pressed the hazard lights on and nothing serious happened, worse situation hence no Chevy vehicles, I think I will vote for Skoda in the race but unfortunately it's not in the list.
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Old 19th June 2008, 13:39   #36
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Here is my philosophy:
a. Palio numbers are pretty much on the higher side. I've conversed with atleast 15 people in the past month (almost 3% of their monthly sales) and this number is purely bunkum.
b. Similar experience with Ikon vs Esteem. Know several junta personally.
c. IME, Scorpio is significantly lesser troubles than Safari. Just see TBHP itself man. Who are we kidding.
d. Where is Logan?
e. lancer junta don't post ANY problems in initial ownership

Lots of other thoughts but this data doesn't add up. Its just a mag/rag level stuff - I dont blame mags either ever, after all the auto industry pays their bills in one way or the other cheers:

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Originally Posted by diabloo View Post
This is not the rank - they are toppers in each segment:
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Old 19th June 2008, 14:31   #37
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This survey is absolute rubbish! Not only is it glaringly stupid, JD doesn't include many of the cars launched in the last 12 - 18 months. That makes it outdated too!

Even within cars that have been around for ages, they have not included the Accord in their ranking.

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Originally Posted by aaggoswami View Post
@GTO : Well, I dont own one, but I believe that C-class is pretty good car.
Quote:
Originally Posted by supremeBaleno View Post
But your C-class was just a one-off case, a lemon. Should we be extending the same ranking to all the C-classes ?
Aaggoswami : The C220 is an awesome machine; I simply love my car. Its fast, fuel efficient, safe, nice to drive and comes loaded with goodies. However, it is certainly not the most dependable in its class. According to this nonsensical JD report, the C-Class is more dependable than a Toyota Camry Go figure.

@ SupremeBaleno : My previous C180 was a lemon; the replacement C220 has performed admirably. The problems faced in my C220 have been <10% of that in the previous car. That said, it hasn't been entirely trouble free. Good by European standards, but not a patch on Japanese alternatives. And I know of one too many C-Class experiences from my circle to quantify that statement.
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Old 19th June 2008, 14:50   #38
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Well, if esteem has been included in the survey, then how come Zen (original, not estilo) does not feature in the list.

In my opinion, the original zen was one of the most dependable car, based on my experience with two of them in last 12 years and also on people in my friends circle who are owners or ex-owners..
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Old 19th June 2008, 15:25   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by diffsoft View Post
I am wondering how such a survey might be conducted? Most vehicle owners would own let's say on an average 2 vehicles and their universe of "dependability" will be restricted mostly to the vehicles they own.

I used to own an M800 and now Santro AT and Verna. My view of dependability is going to be restricted to my experiences to these vehicles. So how can my dependability be compared to the dependability of someone who owns say an NHC?

Any thoughts?
This kind of statistics is supposedly a mass study on numbers. Prima facie, we don't have data on what parameters went into defining dependability. What kind of weightage was given to each of these parameters? - after all, a crankshaft failure is not the same as a headlight failure. How was the sample size chosen? Were the questions subjective and open to interpretation? What kind of difference is statistically significant - bear in mind that the sales of different models widely differ. Not to speak of the fact that vehicles are driven in all kinds of terrains and different conditions by different users who themselves have widely different driving habits. How was this factored into the study? Mind you, I am not saying that this kind of study can't be done -it most certainly can be,but just that it must be subject to lots of caveats.( note for eg the multiple engine failures reported of a particular batch of Santro xing which is a leader in this survey) However, the objectivity of such studies is a definite question mark since there are always vested interests involved.
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Old 19th June 2008, 17:11   #40
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GTO, this survey is not outdated - recent models are not included due to the way the survey was done. Please check out the following quoted from the rediff.com article :

"The 2008 India Vehicle Dependability Study is based on evaluations from nearly 4,700 owners, who purchased a new vehicle between July 2004 and September 2005.

The study includes 33 vehicle models covering 12 nameplates and fielded from January to April 2008 in 20 cities across India."

So, this survey is about cars purchased 3 years ago and how dependable they have been over the next 3 years of ownership.

Which is exactly how a dependability study can and should be done. You can't find out the reliability of a car by just testdriving it or by using it a couple of times. You know it only over a period of time, which in this case is 3 years.

Also mentioned is that "The study includes 33 vehicle models covering 12 nameplates"

Of these 33 models, they have taken the best 3 for each of the 8 segments.

@skydiver, since the Estilo wasn't around 3 years ago, the Zen rated in this survey must be the original Zen.

Quote:
Originally Posted by phamilyman
Palio numbers are pretty much on the higher side. I've conversed with atleast 15 people in the past month (almost 3% of their monthly sales) and this number is purely bunkum.
Well, I wouldn't think that they would have anything against the Palio.

Quote:
Originally Posted by phamilyman
IME, Scorpio is significantly lesser troubles than Safari. Just see TBHP itself man.
You are right about the Scorp being more dependable than the Safari. But even with umpteen threads on Safari vs Scorpio, I don't think a conclusion has been reached on that in tbhp. The jury seems to be still out on that one and from the looks of it will remain there for a long time.

Quote:
Originally Posted by phamilyman
Where is Logan?
Well, that's what we all would like to know. Where is the Logan currently ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by phamilyman
lancer junta don't post ANY problems in initial ownership
I am not sure I understood this. The Lancer is mentioned in the survey along with 277 problems reported per 100 vehicles, which is more than the average for that segment - not a +ve in any case.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sridharps
note for eg the multiple engine failures reported of a particular batch of Santro xing which is a leader in this survey
You have a point. Actually this was the first thing that came to my mind when I saw Santro leading the Compact segment with least problems reported.

Last edited by supremeBaleno : 19th June 2008 at 17:14.
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Old 19th June 2008, 17:23   #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GTO View Post
This survey is absolute rubbish! Not only is it glaringly stupid, JD doesn't include many of the cars launched in the last 12 - 18 months. That makes it outdated too!


Aaggoswami : The C220 is an awesome machine; I simply love my car. Its fast, fuel efficient, safe, nice to drive and comes loaded with goodies. However, it is certainly not the most dependable in its class. According to this nonsensical JD report, the C-Class is more dependable than a Toyota Camry Go figure.

@ SupremeBaleno : My previous C180 was a lemon; the replacement C220 has performed admirably. The problems faced in my C220 have been <10% of that in the previous car. That said, it hasn't been entirely trouble free. Good by European standards, but not a patch on Japanese alternatives. And I know of one too many C-Class experiences from my circle to quantify that statement.
OK, GTO, I got the answer from the following. With so much less volume compared to the big players like Maruti Suzuki, Hyundai, Mercedes should not have given any problems.

Thanks Lamborghini!
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Old 20th June 2008, 14:00   #42
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[quote=aaggoswami;872282]OK, GTO, I got the answer from the following. With so much less volume compared to the big players like Maruti Suzuki, Hyundai, Mercedes should not have given any problems.


@aaggoswami - Intuitively, what you say makes perfect sense. Since the sales are lower, the reported problems should be lower. Bear in mind,however, that the sample size determination should take this into consideration.( and multiple other parameters, like the distance run of the vehicle over three years, city/rural driving, accident/non-accident vehicle, whether scheduled maintenance was done always on time, whether we sampled multiple batch of vehicles..etc etc..we could think of ten other parameters I guess).
There is old wisdom which goes " Lies, damned lies & statistics". While this statement is very harsh, it is very important to understand the assumptions made in this survey and the corrosponding dependencies. It may be useful as one piece of the entire puzzle, but must be strongly caveated. Otherwise, we can't deduce much from this survey( Hyundai Motors, though, evidently has seen all that it wants to see. I saw an ad yesterday from Hyundai which has copy-pasted the relevant portion on Santro and trumpeted it around)
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Old 20th June 2008, 14:11   #43
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toyota always.. yet to see a broken down innova or corolla
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Old 20th June 2008, 14:32   #44
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I don't think that manufacturers call the JD Power survey as bogus (even the ones that fare bad). It is not that far off compared to the consumer reports surveys which are also accepted.
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Old 20th June 2008, 16:54   #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sridharps View Post
@aaggoswami - Intuitively, what you say makes perfect sense. Since the sales are lower, the reported problems should be lower. Bear in mind,however, that the sample size determination should take this into consideration.( and multiple other parameters, like the distance run of the vehicle over three years, city/rural driving, accident/non-accident vehicle, whether scheduled maintenance was done always on time, whether we sampled multiple batch of vehicles..etc etc..we could think of ten other parameters I guess).
There is old wisdom which goes " Lies, damned lies & statistics". While this statement is very harsh, it is very important to understand the assumptions made in this survey and the corrosponding dependencies. It may be useful as one piece of the entire puzzle, but must be strongly caveated. Otherwise, we can't deduce much from this survey( Hyundai Motors, though, evidently has seen all that it wants to see. I saw an ad yesterday from Hyundai which has copy-pasted the relevant portion on Santro and trumpeted it around)
You are correct that these are realtively very small samples that are mostly not reliable and we cannot apply these as general benchmarks.
Finding Hyundai Santro leading the class it is in, and Mercedes benz C-class ( after reading the links provided ) making into it suggest that the reports are not the reliable and we cannot rely more than 10% on these type of surveys for getting gereral idea about one product.
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