Go Back   Team-BHP > BHP India > The Indian Car Scene


Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 2nd July 2008, 14:31   #76
Senior - BHPian
 
srishiva's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Bengaluru
Posts: 3,689
Thanked: 906 Times
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by amit_mechengg View Post
its not about going around anyones point. its about the basic design aspect which everyone knows. non-intrusion beams are now the most common thing which u will see right from alto to luxury cars. Indica and Indigo/ FIAT cars too have them despite of having a strong sheet metal.

if you read the posts correctly and give an unbiased view you will read some posts which say that some people have 13 NHCs in their family and they dont feel them strong. also a minor hit which is very common in Indian traffic conditions cause you 30-50 k is a very big hole in your pocket.

come and drive in pune. according to your crumple zone theory and craving for safety , you will end up spending more than your car in few years for its repairs.
Don't take it personally. When you say "safe car", it means its safe for the occupants.

You are bringing in occupants safety when all you just wanted to talk about was repair costs.
srishiva is offline  
Old 2nd July 2008, 14:42   #77
BHPian
 
PatchyBoy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Earth
Posts: 837
Thanked: 1,396 Times
Default

Quote:

Pune, June 28 A speeding car knocked down 14-year-old state level cycling champion, Ronak Sunil Burman, at Telco Colony, at Pimpri on Saturday, leaving him seriously injured...
.....Ronak won a gold medal in the state level cycling competition in the under-14 category held recently. He was soon to go to Tamil Nadu to participate in national competitions.
A potential loss of a great athelete?
Maybe an Olympic Medal, just vanished?
Head injuries, the cyclist facing permanent loss of some controls?

And all we can discuss is crumple zone of OHC?

Shame on us.

Rajan
PatchyBoy is offline  
Old 2nd July 2008, 14:46   #78
BANNED
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Bengalooru
Posts: 1,471
Thanked: 8 Times
Default

What would be the cost for other cars, similarly priced?
Quote:
Originally Posted by amit_mechengg View Post
also a minor hit which is very common in Indian traffic conditions cause you 30-50 k is a very big hole in your pocket.
diabloo is offline  
Old 2nd July 2008, 14:50   #79
Distinguished - BHPian
 
supremeBaleno's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Weekdays@Chennai, Weekends@Kerala
Posts: 5,191
Thanked: 1,690 Times
Default

@M2S, while I agree with most of your analysis about the accident under discussion, I am surprised how you came to the following conclusion.
Quote:
Originally Posted by married2speed
I can guarantee that had this been a 800, one of the 2 would have not lived.
Care to explain the rationale behind the statement ?

P.S. : Infact, with the above statement, you seem to be doing exactly what you accused others of, in the opening statement of your post.

Last edited by supremeBaleno : 2nd July 2008 at 14:54.
supremeBaleno is offline  
Old 2nd July 2008, 15:15   #80
Senior - BHPian
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Bombay
Posts: 1,069
Thanked: 776 Times
Default

Can any of the folks point me in the direction of the Honda City crash test ratings?

I've surfed the web, checked the Honda India website, written to SIAM, et all, but no luck.

Would like to know the basis of your arguments that the car has been extensively crash tested and has passed with flying colours. AFAIK, I cant find any crash results for the Honda City anywhere at all. Please help.
Lalvaz is offline  
Old 2nd July 2008, 15:22   #81
BHPian
 
sj_koova's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Bangalore
Posts: 610
Thanked: 176 Times
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by married2speed View Post
It never ceases to suprise me how ignorant we can get and based on our ignorance and assumptions, we head out to tarnish the image of someone, without even trying to verify the facts.

I guess, if we put this scenario to place, then all theories of the crumple zone are true and Honda indeed does a good job with their cars and pedestrian safety.

Cheers!
M2S
married2speed,

You haven't verified the facts here. You have only made assumptions based on the very basic details available to you. You are right it putting your views here, but that should not be just to boost the image of Honda.
I agree that everyone else is making their comments based on assumptions. And so I am.

A coin has two sides my friend. Honda may be right in implementing crumple zones in their car, but if Honda was so safety conscious, why did they not provide Airbags in all their cars in India. They are not selling their car so cheap in India to cut down such important safety factors.

To me the story sounds like, crumple zones are so easy and lot cheaper to implement. They are selling their cheap tricks and passing on the liabilities of even a small crash to owners.
I guess pedestrian safety measures on cars are not made mandatory in India. So I do not think Honda would be conscious about pedestrian safety more than production cost on their cars at least in India.

Last edited by sj_koova : 2nd July 2008 at 15:26. Reason: typo
sj_koova is offline  
Old 2nd July 2008, 15:46   #82
Senior - BHPian
 
zenx's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Bangalore
Posts: 1,090
Thanked: 75 Times
Default

2007 Honda Fit Safety and Crash Tests - MSN Autos


I believe these are similar to the NHC - ?
zenx is offline  
Old 2nd July 2008, 15:46   #83
Senior - BHPian
 
aaggoswami's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Vadodara
Posts: 4,703
Thanked: 1,522 Times
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by married2speed View Post
It never ceases to suprise me how ignorant we can get and based on our ignorance and assumptions, we head out to tarnish the image of someone, without even trying to verify the facts.
On a careful inspection of the pictures, a lot of information is revealed and people who have actively supported the crumple zone phenomenon, are right while the others who have been hell bound on tarnishing the image of Honda for light weight steel, here's an insight to you.

If we look carefully at the pictures, and inspect the damage, the damage is only confined to
1. Honda - The front end
2. Bicycle - Front End
3. Honda - The headlights are still intact.

Now keeping the above points into consideration, one can safely assume
a) the crash that took place was at a slow speed. Had the crash been at a high speed, there would have been more damage to the bicycle than the car and would have probably been nothing more than a crushed bar.
b) the headlights of the car should have also been broken. The headlights remaining intact only reiterates the fact that Honda quality cannot, under any circumstances be questioned. Plastic/glass is a lot cheaper than Steel and is used at more places than we often know. If honda were not to emphasise on quality, why do you think they would use good quality plastic/glass.

Moving back to point a. It surely is correct to say that nothing else but the bicycle hit the car, but how did the child manage to break his C-bone. From the way I look at the pictures, the child driving the car did try to stop the car to avoid the accident but was not able to control it, the biclyclist too saw the car coming, did brake but the impact of the crash flung him over and made him land on the bonnet of the car with a impact. It is due to this very reason that the car is in the state that it is and the child has a broken C-bone. I guess, if we put this scenario to place, then all theories of the crumple zone are true and Honda indeed does a good job with their cars and predestrian safety.
Also, both the driver and the injured kid are alive, which only goes to show that Honda's quality can't be questioned. I can guarantee that had this been a 800, one of the 2 would have not lived.
Moreover, for all those who are supporting the "harder steel" factor, here's a question. Where do you think the child would have landed had a fiat hit the child. On the bonnet, behind the car, on the roof or 10 feet backwards? The harder steel would have ensured that the bonnet doesn't go for a toss and the repair cost is kept to the minimal but then, where would have the impact been transferred to? I guess the bicycle isn't built that strong to sustain crashes like these.
So, let us not jump the gun and target people/companies without verifying the facts. After all these companies have more knowledgable people than we guys.

drive safe and keep watching the rear view mirror
Cheers!
M2S



@married2speed.

1)
You are perfectly correct here that Honda has provided good pedestrian safety.
But then what would happen if the car hits a truck or SUV ? Then wont the safety of the occupants of the car be at risk ? If this is the state of car after hitting a bicycle with a human being, then if the cars hit another car or truck on the road, then the occupants of G2HC will perish.

2)
If Honda were so safety conscious, then why did they not provide at least ABS in their cars even as an option ? It was only after the competition got these features, they came up with one.

After looking at the car's condition, we have a right to question the attitude of Honda towards India.

Last edited by aaggoswami : 2nd July 2008 at 15:54.
aaggoswami is offline  
Old 2nd July 2008, 15:47   #84
Senior - BHPian
 
Amartya's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Evanston
Posts: 1,712
Thanked: 439 Times
Default Link to the Euro NCAP ratings

My guess is that since the City is sold as the Jazz in Europe (albeit as a hatchback/supermini), we can assume that the City would have similar occupant safety ratings. However, for pedestrian safety, the ratings might be significantly different just because of the change in body style.

I have pasted the link for the Euro NCAP rating for the Jazz below

Euro NCAP - For safer cars | Honda Jazz

I agree with M2S's point that sheet metal girth is not the factor that is solely responsible for safety, but it is something that the japanese have used to their advantage (nothing wrong with that at a philosophical level ). Lower weight -> better efficiency -> less production cost; seems like a win-win situation.

However, factor in the kind of traffic in India, Honda skimping on active safety features like ABS and airbags until very recently and it suddenly seems to me that Honda has been short changing their customers in India. With accident repairs being very common, using thicker guage metal while still conforming to the padestrian safety (atleast the sheet metal used for the doors, not the bonnet). I remember in another thread which had pictures of a Honda city on the highway with doors that had peeled off, they looked to me to be made of tin foil guage sheets.
Amartya is offline  
Old 2nd July 2008, 15:50   #85
Senior - BHPian
 
RajaTaurus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Tenkasi, TN
Posts: 1,077
Thanked: 345 Times
Default

They do not design crumble zones for pedestrian safety. Crumble Zones are designed to distribute the impact force away from the passengers of the car to save them.
Check this link out...

Now, car airbags to protect pedestrians and cyclists

"To save pedestrians, now, Swedish manufacturers have developed an airbag to inflate under the car's bonnet, reducing the impact on any riders who land on it.
Another, at the base of the windscreen, stops a cyclist's head going through the glass."...
This is what is pedestrain-safe design...

No car can be designed to crumble by the hit of a pedestrian, as well as be safe for hit by another car or a static object...!!!!
RajaTaurus is offline  
Old 2nd July 2008, 15:51   #86
Senior - BHPian
 
srishiva's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Bengaluru
Posts: 3,689
Thanked: 906 Times
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by sj_koova View Post
married2speed,

You haven't verified the facts here. You have only made assumptions based on the very basic details available to you. You are right it putting your views here, but that should not be just to boost the image of Honda.
I agree that everyone else is making their comments based on assumptions. And so I am.

A coin has two sides my friend. Honda may be right in implementing crumple zones in their car, but if Honda was so safety conscious, why did they not provide Airbags in all their cars in India. They are not selling their car so cheap in India to cut down such important safety factors.

To me the story sounds like, crumple zones are so easy and lot cheaper to implement. They are selling their cheap tricks and passing on the liabilities of even a small crash to owners.
I guess pedestrian safety measures on cars are not made mandatory in India. So I do not think Honda would be conscious about pedestrian safety more than production cost on their cars at least in India.
My friend, crumple zones are not cheaper or easier to implement than air bags. These are part of the basic car and cannot be added or deleted depending on the markets in which they operate.

I agree that Honda should have provided air bags on all models (they infact provide like minimum 6 airbags for all cars in most markets).

See, the problem is, minor accidents do not happen with such frequency in other parts of the world. A accident caused by someone else will not be your liability.

Finally whats your point ? The fact that Honda is on the forefront of safety (with a lot of others) is a hoax accepted by everyone on this earth. Every other day you can hear about some automaker trying to design some part to ensure easy deformity. you seem to hate this idea.

I can assure you that if there was a high end non-Honda luxury car involved in this accident, the costs would be even higher. Because, the safety aspects put in todays autos are not practiced only by Honda.

Last edited by srishiva : 2nd July 2008 at 15:56.
srishiva is offline  
Old 2nd July 2008, 16:01   #87
DKG
Senior - BHPian
 
DKG's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Hyderabad
Posts: 3,706
Thanked: 962 Times
Default

I have had a very long association with Honda cars working in dealerships both abroad and here and let me assure you seeing scores of accident cars in the bodyshop everyday Honda structures are amongst the best the industry has to offer.

Even in the most horrific of crashes we have yet to encounter fatalities as the cage remains resistant to deformity.

All modern cars are designed with progressive crumple zones and much focus is laid to the impact of a car with a pedestrian. The use of plastics, sloping bonnets etc are all in light of this. A rigid structure that resists giving in will invariably cause more harm to the pedestrian. So be it the outer skin or the front inner structure it is meant to cave in to absorb the max shock.
DKG is offline  
Old 2nd July 2008, 16:26   #88
BHPian
 
sj_koova's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Bangalore
Posts: 610
Thanked: 176 Times
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by srishiva View Post
Finally whats your point ?
srishiva,

My point is very clear, we still do not know if this is crumple zone effect or the fragile design of the car. Do Honda claim they have crumple zone implemented in NHC in India?. Worldwide Honda may be taking lot of initiatives, but I always felt the NHC is so fragile and light and I suspect they would have made it so in order to reduce the kerb weight and production cost (Please don't catch me on the production cost. I only suspect this). As long as the cars give good mileage Indians don't care about anything else. How many NHC owners bought NHC for the safety features they offer for that price. Honda knows Indians compromise on this fact and they would certainly be making use of this situations. After all they are doing business in India, not a social service.

Fact is that I have nothing agaist Honda, but somehow I feel NHC getting crushed badly in every crash it makes is not for good.
sj_koova is offline  
Old 2nd July 2008, 16:27   #89
Senior - BHPian
 
extreme_torque's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Melbourne
Posts: 3,586
Thanked: 1,463 Times
Default

While I am not undermining the objectivity of crumple zones or doubting honda's engineering, all I am saying is that collision with a cycle should not have triggered the crumple zones.
extreme_torque is online now  
Old 2nd July 2008, 16:36   #90
Senior - BHPian
 
srishiva's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Bengaluru
Posts: 3,689
Thanked: 906 Times
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by extreme_torque View Post
While I am not undermining the objectivity of crumple zones or doubting honda's engineering, all I am saying is that collision with a cycle should not have triggered the crumple zones.
You may not call it crumple zones. The fenders, hood etc., are all made to deform easily.

Should we not care about the life of someone else while we sit in our cars ?
srishiva is offline  
Closed Thread


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
An 8 wheel electric car that puts Enzo to shame. v12 The International Automotive Scene 13 8th February 2010 22:35
McLaren - What a shame! madhav Int'l Motorsport 30 6th January 2008 23:19
Franck Montagny to be replaced... Shame on Super Aguri. ranjan united Int'l Motorsport 1 14th July 2006 15:56
Malaysia's Online 'Hall of Shame' to catch traffic offenders tabrez02 Shifting gears 1 21st July 2005 11:38


All times are GMT +5.5. The time now is 12:21.

Copyright 2000 - 2018, Team-BHP.com
Proudly powered by E2E Networks