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Old 2nd July 2008, 16:49   #91
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Originally Posted by sj_koova View Post
we still do not know if this is crumple zone effect or the fragile design of the car

Fact is that I have nothing agaist Honda, but somehow I feel NHC getting crushed badly in every crash it makes is not for good.
A crumple zone is nothing but the front and rear end of a car designed in sections with differing rates of deformity in impact. The layout and nature of the structure of the beams is also meant to transfer shock to sections of the cage or vehicle passenger cabin which deform the least and transfer shock away from the occupants.

Therefore the part of the car which gets hit the first is meant to disintegrate the easiest. It progressively gets stiffer till it reaches the cage from where the cage resists deformation and the shock transfers through the cage sections to the other end of the car in an impact.

Therefore in summary this is what is meant to happen when you collide be it with a cyclist or a truck. The front will disintegrate instantly. Now to address your concern that it implies the structure is fragile, that is not the case. Assume this was a truck. Not only would the front disintegrate in an instant, the steering column is meant to collapse so the impact does not push the steering into the driver's chest, the engine mounts and positioning is designed so the engine falls under the floorpan and not intrude into the cabin. In a front collision you have very strong subframes that progressively stiffen as they encounter an impact. As the frame crushes and reaches the cage the shock gets transfered through beams in the floor to the rear (in case of a frontal collision)

So please don't assume a car is fragile because the front end caved in with a cycle's impact. Its meant to do just that.

The above has been stated through countless observations of the behaviour of the body of a Honda in all types of crashes.

In vehicle crash safety there are other elements too. If you guys are interested I can share some info on that too

Last edited by DKG : 2nd July 2008 at 16:53.
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Old 2nd July 2008, 16:50   #92
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Originally Posted by srishiva View Post
You may not call it crumple zones. The fenders, hood etc., are all made to deform easily.
The bumper is no longer there, the hood has come up and the central horizontal steel rod has caved in, all this after collision with a racing cycle! I am pretty darn sure any other car would have taken it much much better without so much damage.

Last edited by extreme_torque : 2nd July 2008 at 16:51.
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Old 2nd July 2008, 16:54   #93
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In this case the plastic and rubber will be damaged the most and this way the car manufactures and Insurance companies would probably promote crumble zones (or the so called crumple zone in this case) as they can pass on all liabilities to the user.
If anyone cares about others life while driving, best you could do is safe driving rather than crushing your car for someone else.
I still can't digest that collision with a bicycle can leave NHC in such a bad shape and also Honda has a good intention in making NHC so flimsy.
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Old 2nd July 2008, 16:57   #94
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Originally Posted by DKG View Post

In vehicle crash safety there are other elements too. If you guys are interested I can share some info on that too

Please share. I am still not convinced
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Old 2nd July 2008, 17:01   #95
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While mass of an object is constant the weight is affected by velocity. That cycle would weigh many many times more in kgs on account of its speed. Do please consider that fact. Like they say an untethered human baby in a car travelling at a speed of 16 kmph when it hits a wall translates into a weight as much as a full grown man or more. I can't recall the exact conversion but its astounding.
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Old 2nd July 2008, 17:04   #96
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DKG
let me assure you seeing scores of accident cars in the bodyshop everyday Honda structures are amongst the best the industry has to offer. Even in the most horrific of crashes we have yet to encounter fatalities as the cage remains resistant to deformity.
The words in bold seem to suggest that inspite of the type of crash, there won't be fatalities in a Honda ie. you will not die in an accident if you happen to be in a Honda. Which we know is definitely not the case in real life, be it Honda or any other car.

I guess your intent was different with that sentence, though I am not sure what.
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Old 2nd July 2008, 17:12   #97
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there are pedestrian safety norms mandatory in many countries. the manufacturers have to stick to the standards laid down by the same. the question here is whether cars like skoda, mitsubishi cedia/lancer etc deform in such a way to save the pedestrian?

also in india the new CMVR i.e regulatory norms with come into force from 1st oct,2008 which states that the cabin of the commercial vehicles have to be strong enough to save the occupants and there should be safety zone inside the cabins.

second thing i saw was that buses should be made of thicker sheet metal and they should pass the new roll over test.

now the manufacturers are heading towards changing the cab-cowl sheet metal design to make it stronger.

now if these new norms complaint vehicle like sumo/safari/minitruck/ace whatever hits the Honda City it will smash the whole car except the cabin even in minor crashes.

we have seen in city conditions that cars like scorpio / palio / indica / indigo who dash very mildly with some crap biker/cyclist dont face any damages except few scratches and honda city owners have to yell.
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Old 2nd July 2008, 17:15   #98
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DKG View Post
While mass of an object is constant the weight is affected by velocity. That cycle would weigh many many times more in kgs on account of its speed. Do please consider that fact. Like they say an untethered human baby in a car travelling at a speed of 16 kmph when it hits a wall translates into a weight as much as a full grown man or more. I can't recall the exact conversion but its astounding.
First and foremost, the object hit was not a stationary object so a lot of the force of the collision would have been lost in the tranfer of momentum after the collision.
Secondly, the car hit the tyre of the bicycle and some of the energy should have been absorbed there too.
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Old 2nd July 2008, 17:15   #99
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bblost;888047]@married2speed: brilliant. Was a pleasure reading your post.
Thanks mate. It's equally nice to read your other posts. Quite an insight.

Quote:
apachelongbow;888113]I too loved his post. On the hind sight, why do I pay for the mistakes of others? Consider this against those SUV's with the bull bars, what happens if my crumple zone equipped car is banged by these monsters?
What would you rather have? A broken car or a broken predestrian or lord forbid the worse -a night in prison? I guess you would rather pay for the repair for your car rather than bribe the cops to wriggle your way out. Suv v/s a honda crash, you would be better of being in the car which looks the worst as that car is usually believed to be on the right track in comparasion with those who just suffer a minor dent.

Quote:
srishiva;888126]The car owner pays the price for his own saved life. They cannot design crumple zones differently for different cars/vehicles that would hit your car.
Not all mistakes from others will damage just your car and not you
Precisely my point apachelongbow. Well said srishiva

Quote:
PatchyBoy;888234]A potential loss of a great athelete?
Maybe an Olympic Medal, just vanished?
Head injuries, the cyclist facing permanent loss of some controls?
And all we can discuss is crumple zone of OHC?

Shame on us.
You really think that in this cricket crazy world, any other sport even matters to us
Jokes apart, I do feel sorry for the kid but there's little that can be done now. I'm sure whatever can be done, is being done by his parents. We on our part are creating social awareness which isn't such a bad thing to do. Is it? If Honda is so bad, then maybe we should all stop buying their car but this charge is yet to be proved. Maybe we could have a poll on this mods? That should be interesting.

Quote:
supremeBaleno;888249]@M2S, while I agree with most of your analysis about the accident under discussion, I am surprised how you came to the following conclusion.

Care to explain the rationale behind the statement ?
Sure Supreme Baleno - I'm not sure if you are aware but sometime back, the 800 has failed the crash tests. Not too sure if they still do it on the current lot, (the norms require it) but on the internet, there's a lot of speculation that the 800'z do not undergo crash test, although MUL begs to differ for obvious reasons. As soon as I can find the relevant page, I"ll have it put in here.
[quote]

.

Quote:
aaggoswami;888317]@married2speed
1)
You are perfectly correct here that Honda has provided good pedestrian safety.
But then what would happen if the car hits a truck or SUV ? Then wont the safety of the occupants of the car be at risk ? If this is the state of car after hitting a bicycle with a human being, then if the cars hit another car or truck on the road, then the occupants of G2HC will perish
If you manage to survive the crash - read explanation above given to apachelongbow. If not, then -> not point answering the question . Jokes apart. My friend, it's not all about the car. There are a lot of factors, incidents, scenarios that exsist in a crash. Speed of crash is very important as that determines the forces involved. Luck would the 2nd factor that I personally would take into consideration. Presence of mind of the driver, skill, tyres, brakes are few of the factors that go into saving someone's life in a crash. For those who are insisting on airbags and ABS in Honda, food for though is, what good those be when a person, is drunk/sleepy, and is driving on a highway with bald tyres. Are we still going to blame the car here should that person happen to loose his life? Or are we saying that such a person would survive a crash under similar circumstances in a TATA or a FIAT?


Quote:
Even in the most horrific of crashes we have yet to encounter fatalities as the cage remains resistant to deformity.

Quote:
All modern cars are designed with progressive crumple zones and much focus is laid to the impact of a car with a pedestrian. The use of plastics, sloping bonnets etc are all in light of this. A rigid structure that resists giving in will invariably cause more harm to the pedestrian. So be it the outer skin or the front inner structure it is meant to cave in to absorb the max shock
Absolutely true. To add to this, what would you rather have. The tough steel factor and hours struggling to cut the steel to get the passengers out only to save you from car repairs or a crumpled NHC which would help in taking out trapped passengers and providing them with necessary medical assistance in time.

For those who are questioning the "attitude of honda", we all remember the picture of the ford icon that was cut into 2 in Mumbai( there's a thread floating around here somewhere about worst accident in India). Go have a look and then come back with questions about Honda and this is being said not too boost the image of the company, but to provide an insight that at the moment, given the cost : output scenario, (VFM), honda should score better than it's competitors.

Cheers!
M2S
PS: Should things still not be clear, we can get into techinicalities and the assembly production of honda and how each segment works to offer maximum safety in it's possible structure.
On OT - I personally don't like the way the Honda looks and was never inclined to buy it, but ... in stead, wanted a TATA safari.
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Old 2nd July 2008, 17:17   #100
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Vehicle crash safety is a huge concern for all automobile manufacturers. Honda is no exception. There are marketing dynamics involved that dictate that this core value of an automobile is optimised to ensure popularity with the buying public. Unsafe cars don't sell. Safety sells.

In design concerns you have two fundamental elements. Active and Passive safety. In simple words active safety elements of a car is all about what can transpire before an accident to minimise/avoid damage/accident.

Passive safety entails all elements that act during the accident to reduce risk to both occupants and pedestrians.

Active safety is affected by:

1. Weight of the vehicle. Heavier cars have to struggle to maintain directional stability and are more prone to accidents. A lighter car can change directions easier and therefore avoid an accident. So while fuel economy is also an obvious criteria, weight reduction in modern auto design is also about enhanced ability of the car to change direction

2. Suspension dynamics. How the car behaves in terms of handling and retaining traction. This can be a life/death situation should your car lose control. Superior suspension design allows your car to retain traction in as wide a spectrum as possible. This works to minimising the risk of accidents

3. Steering geometry. Ability of the steering and suspension to give the driver feedback on road info and on when the car is losing traction. All the new stuff of variable gear ratios etc are about improved handling despite higher highway speeds. If as a driver you can read the road and what the wheels are doing more efficiently you stand a stronger chance of out manuevering a accident situation. Modern cars are working hard at achieving this.

4. Brake systems. ABS (which I assume needs no explanation), electronic brake distribution systems, and other brake assist features are working to improving brake performance. Tyre tech plays a big role too here. Ceramic brakes are the preferred choice in F1 and will slowly find their way to our cars once the viability is worked out.

5. Drivetrain. The engine and gearbox can also help in controlling an accident situation. The tractability of a car is critical when you have lost control and are trying to get out of a situation. Torque, gearing etc make a difference albeit to a lesser extent
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Old 2nd July 2008, 17:25   #101
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You were there after few minutes - so you are not sure of what exactly happened. Seeing the cycle & NHC you assume they had collision. Did the NHC, driven by a novice driver, without license, collide against anything else? No idea.

So you report NHC & cycle collided and NHC damaged. And you generalize that this will happen to all NHC & cycle collisions.

What next?
Quote:
Originally Posted by amit_mechengg View Post
we have seen in city conditions that cars like scorpio / palio / indica / indigo who dash very mildly with some crap biker/cyclist dont face any damages except few scratches and honda city owners have to yell.
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Old 2nd July 2008, 17:35   #102
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Default U Guyz Surprize Mee ...

Guyz the reason for the the NHC, ending up as it is, is really quite okay. No really thats what saved the poor fella's life.

Todays cars are designed to minimize the risk to its occupants as also the unfortunate victim. The tougher the cars outer shell does not mean it is stronger. The modern day cars are all about minimizing the risk to its occupants. The shell on impact crumples (things called crumple zones - mandatory for all cars to pass safety tests) and cocoons the occupants.

There was a case in Mumbai (matunga), it actually happened in the building next to mine, when a boy of 18 fell from the 9th floor and was lucky enough to fall on a SX4 parked below. The car was a wreck, but that probably saved the boyz life. TOI carried an exhaustive story on the miracluous escape for the boy.

Ol hindi sayin - Saar Salamat to Pagdi Hazaar.
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Old 2nd July 2008, 17:37   #103
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Moving onto Passive safety elements you are mainly dealing with the design of the car shell and how the body behaves in a collision.

The ultimate goal of any car manufacturer is to reduce the risk of injury to both occupants and pedestrians (in case the later is involved in the accident)

Car manufacturers can build cars like tanks. Please don't think they can't. Today technology exists so you can drive into a wall and still drive away without much damage to the car. The question is do we want that? Answer is NO. And the reason is we humans have too fragile a structure and hence the car body has to be designed to enhance our body's ability to resist damage in an accident.

Take a car without crumple zones. Like what we had from yesteryears. In a rear end collision your neck will simply snap in two leaving you dead. So manufacturers had to figure out how to soften that impact to your neck when someone slams into your car's rear end. They started to design progressive deformation into the rear of your car to do just that. What this means is the car should cave in in stages of increasing resistance. Like a shock absorber. So when you get rear ended as you drive, before your neck receives the impact a good portion of your trunk is crumpling absorbing most of the impact. Modern cars have introduced seat belt pretensioners which then sense the accident as the rear starts to crumple tighten the seat belt so you are held in your seat and not flung forward. Similarly headrest position plays a critical role in reducing whiplash injury

The Supplemental Restraint Systems or SRS Airbags are also designed to explode into a bag to cushion your face and chest. Now they have airbags in doors, roof colums and the latest I hear is a pedestrian airbag that blows up to cushion the blow to the pedestrian.

Like for the rear the front end has a crumple zone too. Usually its the bumpers, the fenders, the bonnet, the bulk head or the beam inside that holds the radiator assembly etc, lightweight materials upfront crumple easily lowering the risk of transferring shock.

Steering columns are designed to collapse and prevent the bulkhead from pushing the rod into the driver's chest.

Engine mounts, placement and floorpan design is in such a way that in a front collision the engine is meant to fall and slide below the car and not ram into the cabin.

Some cars like Volvo are pioneering honeycomb structures in the cage floor sections so the shock is transferred efficiently to the rear.

Door beams are placed to increase resistance to side impacts.

Vehicle styling is playing a key role. Apart from aerodynamic concerns a sloping front is safer to hit for a pedestrian.

Rolls Royce had an awkward problem with their mascot becoming a bit of an impaler for pedestrians. So they had to engineer the mascot to recede into the shell on impact from the Spirit model on.

The use of plastics for bumpers, lights, grills is all about ease of crumpling and lowering the risk of injury.

I may have missed a few more points but I hope this throws some light on the complicated world of vehicle safety design.

Last edited by DKG : 2nd July 2008 at 17:40.
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Old 2nd July 2008, 17:46   #104
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Originally Posted by supremeBaleno View Post
The words in bold seem to suggest that inspite of the type of crash, there won't be fatalities in a Honda ie. you will not die in an accident if you happen to be in a Honda. Which we know is definitely not the case in real life, be it Honda or any other car.

I guess your intent was different with that sentence, though I am not sure what.
What I meant by horrific is where there's hardly anything left of the car upfront or rear. Passengers have survived some very nasty crashes. And its not just Honda. Volvo, Mercedes, BMW, Toyota, Honda and a few others excel in crash safety.

That said there are no guarantees to safety. I think I read somewhere that the best of crash safety tech fails beyond 90 kmph. So even if its the Mercs or Volvo's in high speed accidents they may not save you. I'm sure people are dying in Honda's as they do in Mercs and BMW's and Toyota's. Of the current lot though Honda and Toyota do offer a high degree of safety in design from amongst the Japanese brands

Last edited by DKG : 2nd July 2008 at 17:47.
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Old 2nd July 2008, 17:57   #105
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Originally Posted by zenx View Post

Hey Zenx - thanks for the links. This is not strictly comparable to the NHC thats sold here. Apart from the boot, theres also a difference in the number of airbags, and other safety features, but nevertheless, really useful link.

BTW, also see certain safety info on the Honda India website now. Like I now see Srishiva's & DKG's points about the bonnet deforming by design in order to protect pedestrians and the gap between the engine and the bonnet. Few questions persist though. If you look at the safety cage of the Civic versus the City, they've specifically mentioned that the Civic is made of high tensile steel which reduces the impact to the occupants, which is not the case in the City (Atleast not mentioned on their website) Also the points made about the lack of safety features in earlier versions etc.... are cause for concern.

Also check out Amartya's link to the NCAP ratings. To Quote from the link:

Pedestrian protection
The bonnet was fairly compliant where an adult or child pedestrian’s head would most likely strike it, but the Jazz’s wings and bonnet edges proved to be somewhat ‘unfriendly’. Tests carried out on the bumper showed that it offered good protection against injury to vulnerable road users.

So, after all this informative reading, I'm still not convinced about the safety aspect. Fact is that the car seems fragile and flimsy, which does not inspire much confidence amongst the owners. Am not sure how pedestrian friendly the pedestrian perceives it though.

But still thankful that the lil cyclist was not too badly injured.
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