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Old 26th July 2008, 21:41   #46
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How many of us are aware that M800 is in fact, the 2nd generation Alto? And that the Alto is currently in its 6th generation?

As a consumer, I agree with you people that M800 is a good car.

But my POV above is different. What happens when a manufacturer of disposable cups simply repaints the exterior of used cups and sells them as brand new??? The M800 was designed with "planned obsolescence in mind, but the phasing is not happening Here. Hence the term trash. The trash thing is with the manufacturer's strategy of flogging an almost dead model.

I would not have used that term if they had given us back that 5 speed gear box. It would have improved the FE and performance. And made most of us happy.

I am disgusted with these cosmetic changes. I chose MSIL by default because other manufactuerers did not have what I wanted. Even MSIL did not have what I wanted, My present drive is only an approximation.

THe i10 and all generations / iterations of those VWs, corollas, etc. heppened when something changed. What changed in the M800? (The initial change from the boxy thing to the present thing excepted?)

Ugh. Oh. Power cut. WIll post more later - if necessary.
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Old 26th July 2008, 23:24   #47
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Are we drifting here?

Suddenly it's Maruti v/s Tata/Chevy/Ford/Hyundai/Honda even VW and BMW

Aren't M800 or even Omni are loners in their segment at present? (present and not future) So why compare until anything really challenges the existance of M800?
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Old 27th July 2008, 00:17   #48
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Mods kindly take off the comments on the 800 being called trash.. just because some lunatic doesn't like something because it's been around for a long time doesn't mean he has the right to talk crap about it.

This a car forum about cars and people who love cars not a crap forum
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Old 27th July 2008, 01:00   #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BaCkSeAtDrIVeR View Post
How many of us are aware that M800 is in fact, the 2nd generation Alto? And that the Alto is currently in its 6th generation?
True.
Similar is the case with Octavia & Laura. Accent & Verna. And did you know that Versa is a newer generation Omni.


Quote:
But my POV above is different. What happens when a manufacturer of disposable cups simply repaints the exterior of used cups and sells them as brand new??? The M800 was designed with "planned obsolescence in mind, but the phasing is not happening Here.
In the west cars would've made into the disposable category and with a 15 year max life time. Here in India the car is not disposed off by anyone as long as it continues to serve it's owner in a reliable way. Cars are not disposed off here on a scale that happens in the west and definitely automobiles does not make it into the disposable category here in our country.

Disposable cups is a bad analogy. Here no manufacturer is taking disposed off cars from the junkyard, repainting them and selling it off as brand new or refurbished. All cars are manufactured new.

Yes every product has a planned lifetime and it happens in some markets that the products exceeds their planned lifetime and continues to be made and sold succesfully. Eg: Yamaha Vmax, RD350YPVS, Volkswagen Beetle (old) all these were being sold till our recent past.

Quote:
Hence the term trash. The trash thing is with the manufacturer's strategy of flogging an almost dead model.
Trash is something that nobody wants. Here we have buyers for this particular Trash. So it's not Trash.

Quote:
I would not have used that term if they had given us back that 5 speed gear box. It would have improved the FE and performance. And made most of us happy.
It's not the 5 speed gearbox alone that made the difference. It's the combination of a 5speed gearbox and a 12valve head. It was a hot model and sad that they pulled it off the market.

Many still buy 800 as their first car. Unless it is pulled out of the market like thay did with Esteem & Baleno it will sell. If Esteem was still available in the market i'm sure many would've bought it.

The car is not trash. But yes it's obsolete.
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Old 27th July 2008, 04:31   #50
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Originally Posted by Sankar View Post

The car is not trash. But yes it's obsolete.
True!! Very well said.
How nicely put. Well done Sankar. Your post makes lot of sense.

TRASH was simply a term too rash!!
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Old 27th July 2008, 10:57   #51
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Quote:
Trash is something that nobody wants. Here we have buyers for this particular Trash. So it's not Trash.
True. Put a square wheel on a car, and sell it for a couple of thousand less> There will be buyers for that variant in India. We will prefer to put in after market proper wheels. But that is no excuse for a manufacturer to sell bad products AFTER putting in a better improved version of the same product. If they do, it is simply exploiting the customer.

And I have a peeve against manufacturers taking advntage of that weakness.

Quote:
Disposable cups is a bad analogy.
Yes. And I did say so.

Quote:
Here no manufacturer is taking disposed off cars from the junkyard, repainting them and selling it off as brand new or refurbished. All cars are manufactured new.
I DId not say that, and sorry if I implied that. I am meaning the concept. The model. The design. The total package. The manufacturer has every right to squeeze the last blood out of a dying model. As a customer, I have every right to protest when a manufacturer tries to heap c r a p on customers. As a customer, when I have no other choice I may settle for the crap the manufacturer sells me. That does not mean that I am happy with what I get. I know the mfr. can give me better products. But he is deliberately not. Hope this clarifies the issue.


Quote:
It's not the 5 speed gearbox alone that made the difference. It's the combination of a 5speed gearbox and a 12valve head. It was a hot model and sad that they pulled it off the market.
We agree here dont we? It is just that I have stronger feelings about this. Ever watched how drivers behave in a traffic jam? Some get frustrated. Some honk. Some put on ICE and keep cool. Some look for small gaps to squeeze through. When MSIL says "take this or leave it. This is the gearbox / engine we are prepared to give you on this model", you (and I am not referring only to the individual who posted the quote above) feel sad. I get angry.


Taking away the heart (or whatever is closer to a heart for a car) and
putting in some superficial changes (that is where the "repainting used cups" in my analogy comes in) and claiming to have a better product is simply unacceptable to me.


Quote:
Unless it is pulled out of the market like thay did with Esteem & Baleno it will sell. If Esteem was still available in the market i'm sure many would've bought it.
and

Quote:
Trash is something that nobody wants. Here we have buyers for this particular Trash. So it's not Trash.
Do find a contradiction there? "There are buyers for it. and there will be buyers for it as long as it is available". You stop there.

I go a bit further. I see "as a concept, what is available inside the M800 package is outdated. Out moded. Well used. Re used. Flogged to death. I am bored. If you keep on repeating, I would simply crush it (if I could) and put it in the dust bin."

Quote:
Aren't M800 or even Omni are loners in their segment at present? (present and not future) So why compare until anything really challenges the existance of M800?
True. Very true. Even the lowest variants of Indica/Xeta do not come anywhere close in terms of price.

Quote:
The car is not trash. But yes it's obsolete.
True. And if somebody makes a Ford Motel T today, there will be buyers for it.

Aw, c'mon. My point - the M800 was good when it was launched (and still is). It was made better several times over in between.

Then some improvements were taken away.

Without giving us back those improvements, why simply put in some cosmetic changes and claim to have a new version? I would have called this "hypocrisy". Yup. that would have been better than "trash".

And I have complaints about other manufacturers who bring in models which are obsolete elsewhere and brand them here as new. How many of these manufacturers have a strategy where they modify the existing drivetrain and put in a WORSER one? Without matching reduction in prices to boot?

Once the concept of "small car" was introduced for purpose fo excise duties, some manufacturers have introduced smaller engines - like Xeta or Fiat; but these models also continue to come with the older bigger engines. Did we have similar option with the M800?

And FYI, I would have gone in for a M800 (and not any other car) if my first car was a second hand one. But I decided to get a brand new one from MSIL. And it it was neither the M800 nor the alto. And I choose that model because other manufacturers did not have a better overall package. And NOT because MSIL's package was up to my expectations.

I distinguish between the cars that we own, and the cars the manufacturer sells. Do you? And I can see a distinction between "selling" and "palming off". Because once I almost became owner of an M800, have driven around in one, and still, given the circumstances, I may be forced to become an owner of one, I can understand the former - the "cars that we buy" and "selling a car" part.. But will revolt aainst the latter.

Quote:
When every body was happy they launched the ZX with Vtec. Didn't they had VTEC in india before. So it was clear, if they launched the ZX before who would buy their plain jane IDSI.
Precisely. But there is a difference. Given that vtec engine is better than IDSI engine, what would we have said if we first got a vtec engine and than the manufacturer claimed an "upgrade" to the IDSI? Sorry. I refuse to be simply "sad". But I can understand peopel buying the latter. That is simply no justification for the retrograde step.
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Old 27th July 2008, 13:01   #52
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Truly uniq!
this is what we can expect....
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Maruti Suzuki to roll out new M800 Uniq-image001.jpg  

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Old 27th July 2008, 13:32   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by speedzak
True!! Very well said.
How nicely put. Well done Sankar. Your post makes lot of sense.
Thanks Zak

Quote:
Originally Posted by BaCkSeAtDrIVeR View Post
Do find a contradiction there? "There are buyers for it. and there will be buyers for it as long as it is available". You stop there.
No there is no contradiction there. If those cars were still sold then customers would still buy it. And maybe few years down the line it would be called or termed as trash which they are not. Old cars are just obsolete.

And yes i agree with you whole heartedly that manufacturers instead of trying to sell and resell the old cars should provide their up-to-date replacements in the market with little or no increase in price and at the same time phase out the older model. That is what every customer want. Sad it is not happening that way here.
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Old 27th July 2008, 17:46   #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BaCkSeAtDrIVeR View Post
How many of us are aware that M800 is in fact, the 2nd generation Alto? And that the Alto is currently in its 6th generation?
The Accent/Verna, Santro/i10, Lancer/Lancer Cedia and Octavia/Laura are also in the same category.

Just as Hyundia has not phased out Santro, Maruti brought in the Alto and let the 800 do duty as a car that was affordable for a middle class Indian.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BaCkSeAtDrIVeR View Post

But that is no excuse for a manufacturer to sell bad products AFTER putting in a better improved version of the same product. If they do, it is simply exploiting the customer.

And I have a peeve against manufacturers taking advntage of that weakness.
India is a very different market. Internationally if the car grows, generally it also grows in size and quality. Here, the cost increase will eventually lead to less customers in Maruti 800 segment atleast, that is the reason why Maruti is not withdrawing it from the market.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sankar View Post

And yes i agree with you whole heartedly that manufacturers instead of trying to sell and resell the old cars should provide their up-to-date replacements in the market with little or no increase in price and at the same time phase out the older model. That is what every customer want. Sad it is not happening that way here.
IMO, some cost increase in new models in inevitable. In the Maruti 800 segment, if this happens, this might result into less customers having that car.

If Maruti 800 was discontinued, the will all the 6K customers go for the Alto i.e. a modern ( relatively ) 800.
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Old 27th July 2008, 19:26   #55
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Anyways in Autocar (August) it's mentioned that:-
1)The A-Star is going to make an entry this year.
2) The current Alto would be phased out by 2011.
3) But before that Alto would get a K series engine because the current F series won't be able to meet the emission norms for 2010.

So what will happen to the Maruti 800 with the F series engine?

I have a strong feeling that the 800 won't be kept in production for long once the A star is launched. It would make sense for Maruti to push the Alto into 800's territory once the A Star is out because A Star is the next generation Alto! And i don't think Maruti would want to plonk in a K series engine in the 800 to make it pass the 2010 emission norms.

And who knows the 800 already must be on it's way out. And this limited edition gimmick must be to clear the stocks. I'm just speculating!

Can the 800 be made into a Nano competitior? If yes they have to cut the price but at the same time put in a K series engine to combat the emission controls. Will that happen? If it does then there would be more buyers for 800 with a reduced proce and K series engine than for the higher priced Alto with K series engine. And Maruti will not like that. (Thats why they killed the 800 5Speed)


Edit: My gut feeling tells me that 800 is on it's way out. Sooner rather than later.

Last edited by Sankar : 27th July 2008 at 19:27.
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Old 27th July 2008, 19:34   #56
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I personally hope they kill the alto and keep the 800 to battle the nano. ( and it gets de-castrated the coil sprung rear, engine + gearbox etc... ). alternately, maruti could price down the alto to 800 levels, but the former seems a more economical option- i mean the sheer economies of scale which the 800 commands

Last edited by greenhorn : 27th July 2008 at 19:36.
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Old 27th July 2008, 21:11   #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sankar View Post

2) The current Alto would be phased out by 2011.
The present Alto will be replaced by a new Alto as per ACI in 2011.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Sankar View Post

3) But before that Alto would get a K series engine because the current F series won't be able to meet the emission norms for 2010.

So what will happen to the Maruti 800 with the F series engine?

Can the 800 be made into a Nano competitior? If yes they have to cut the price but at the same time put in a K series engine to combat the emission controls. Will that happen? If it does then there would be more buyers for 800 with a reduced proce and K series engine than for the higher priced Alto with K series engine. And Maruti will not like that.
I think to fight Nano, Maruti will have to continue with 800.
Mostly the 1.0 ltr new engine that will be powering A-star will be reduced to 2 cyinders from 3. This will reduce the capacity to something 600+cc. This would make for lower cost and also meeting the emession norms. Moreover, Suzuki has good small car technology and makes some good 660cc petrol engines for Japan Kei car market. They can also put in those engines.

And secondly, Fiat is developing 800cc twin cylinder diesel. Mostly it is also coming to Maruti along with Tata. This will be fitted in Maruti 800.

By this method, Maruti 800 will survive to fight it with Nano and also meed the tough emession regulations.

ACI also mentions that GM has liscence to make the 1248cc diesel ( the one available in Swift and Swift Dzire ) in three cylinders. So this diesel is also a possibility for 800.

Last edited by aaggoswami : 27th July 2008 at 21:26.
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Old 27th July 2008, 21:24   #58
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Kei car engines with 600cc to 660cc are all turbocharged petrol motors. That would push the cost up further.

And ACI says that GM has the rights to a 963cc 3cylinder Diesel motor which is basically the 4 cylinder 1.3 Fiat Multijet minus one cylinder which they might give to Suzuki. Fiat is in discussion with Suzuki regarding a future 2cylinder Diesel the former is developing.
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Old 27th July 2008, 21:29   #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sankar View Post

Kei car engines with 600cc to 660cc are all turbocharged petrol motors. That would push the cost up further.
Non turbo are available. Making around 50-55bhp. Turbo can go upto 60bhp.
Link:
O Kei! Suzuki Cervo bows in Japan - Autoblog



Quote:
Originally Posted by Sankar View Post

And ACI says that GM has the rights to a 963cc 3cylinder Diesel motor which is basically the 4 cylinder 1.3 Fiat Multijet minus one cylinder which they might give to Suzuki. Fiat is in discussion with Suzuki regarding a future 2cylinder Diesel the former is developing.

Yes my mistake. I wrote " two " instead of " three ".
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Old 27th July 2008, 23:00   #60
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Originally Posted by greenhorn View Post
i mean the sheer economies of scale which the 800 commands
I remember that the alto sells more than the M800.



BTW, did the WagonR have a limited edition couple of years back, also named "uniq"? I distinctly remember seeing an older type wagonR (one with the rear number plate on rear bumper - present ones have it on the hatch) at a distant relative's place. It had beige interior, alloy wheels, dual tone dash, etc. He was saying that this was a limited edition version.
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