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Old 29th July 2008, 23:13   #16
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Originally Posted by DCEite View Post
I, personally, would prefer a modern day diesel car (say Swift DDiS) over its petrol counterpart anyday, even if my monthly running is a mere 500 kms. Mathematics be damned!

Anyone else having the same thoughts?
I totally agree with you. I recently took test drive of 4 cars. Civic, Corolla, Laura and Megnum. 2 petrol and 2 diesel. To be honest i liked the performance of the two diesel ones better then the petrol ones, in these regards. I tested their pickup, their capacity to go top speed, ease of doing high speeds like highway races and chases and also tested the red/green light race capacity, I was observing that during pickup that is at high rev the engine should not scream or cry, it should sound as if its also enjoying as much as I am.

My very short expereince of diesel of the two cars that is Laura and Megnum certainly made me to think why are people not suggesting for me to go for diesel, only because I have very little running of 500 to 600 Km per month. But the drive is better and the company guys says that the servicing is needed after 10000 Kms or once a year.
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Old 29th July 2008, 23:45   #17
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Driving pleasure is subjective. Torque is important for me, but refinement, noise and comfort are equally important.

What I like about Petrol:
Noise, Vibration and Harshness is very less
Rev friendly
Soft Clutch (Very important for city driving)
Less Maintenance

What I like about Diesel:
Torque (Addictive)
Fuel Efficiency and Diesel price
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Old 29th July 2008, 23:48   #18
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Originally Posted by DCEite View Post
No longer is the daily/monthly/yearly running the only criteria of selecting the diesel version of a particular car. Driving pleasure is one area where diesel cars are beginning to make a strong case for themselves.
You are so right, was wondering whether I was the only guy so impressed with Diesels.

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Originally Posted by iraghava View Post
From what I've gathered most modern diesels have that initial surge which makes them a pain to drive in city traffic since you've constantly press the clutch to control it. In bumper to bumper traffic, you still can't potter around like you can in a petrol without having to constantly use the clutch.
It is just the turbo spooling up, and you will have that "problem" in any turbo car, whether petrol or diesel.

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Originally Posted by reignofchaos View Post
There is a lot to driving pleasure other than pure straight line performance. Lots of us favor corner carving capabilities of cars as way more important than pure straight line grunt.
While that explains you choosing the Cedia over the faster diesels, every time I see that car, and every time I see you post about this topic, I think of the "injustice" Mitsubhishi is doing in India, giving us outdated cars. What is the point of all the handling capabilities if it is so slow in the first place? Of course, if they were to give contemperory engines like they do in the rest of the world, I would be the first guy at a HM showroom.

Wonder if they do that in the rest of the world, or this attitude India specific? They are still pushing the lancer here, probably HM influence, they try to pull an Amby of every car they can lay their hands on!

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The basic problem with most FWD diesels is that the base car is built as a petrol and putting in a heavier diesel block messes up the weight distribution completely. The front of the car becomes heavy and doesn't change direction as rapidly as one would want and the front heavy nature means the back of the car loses traction sooner than later.
When these guys put in heavier Diesel blocks, they also change the suspension setup, at least so in Hyundai Accent/Elantra/Sonata. And that is one reason why the diesel versions of these cars have way better high speed manners, but of course, slow speed drive suffers. Anyway, precisely what the doctor ordered for high speed highway driving, and I love the stiff suspension setup on the CRDi Elantra.

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Unless one builds a diesel car from ground up and it has RWD like the bimmers, one will never get great handling in a diesel car.
You are so right, but I would take rather take the ability go fast, compared to the all the handling which is there to be used if only it would go faster in the first place?

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Originally Posted by reignofchaos View Post
Addendum: A turbo doesn't make controlling the car easier either compared to a high revving petrol. However that is still manageable compared to the bigger problem.
Put a turbo in a petrol, and you have the same "problem". Of course, for me, the turbo spooling up is not a problem, it is pleasure.

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I find this fascination for revs puzzling. I dont see the point in getting a petrol motor which delivers x bhp at 9000 rpm when you can have a crdi which does the same at 4,500, and that too, while giving even more torque.
Now, if you can hold gear, ie, if you have more revs, the car would eventually accelerate faster? I still miss a good petrol engine for that. Wish there were more turbo petrol cars around in India...
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Old 30th July 2008, 00:14   #19
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Originally Posted by tadukuttan View Post
While that explains you choosing the Cedia over the faster diesels, every time I see that car, and every time I see you post about this topic, I think of the "injustice" Mitsubhishi is doing in India, giving us outdated cars. What is the point of all the handling capabilities if it is so slow in the first place? Of course, if they were to give contemperory engines like they do in the rest of the world, I would be the first guy at a HM showroom.

Wonder if they do that in the rest of the world, or this attitude India specific? They are still pushing the lancer here, probably HM influence, they try to pull an Amby of every car they can lay their hands on!
Lets not get off topic here but let me put it this way... a bone stock cedia will beat a bone stock elantra CRDi in a 0-100 drag and also to the quarter mile. Modified ofcouse... well depends on the level of modification of both.

Quote:
When these guys put in heavier Diesel blocks, they also change the suspension setup, at least so in Hyundai Accent/Elantra/Sonata. And that is one reason why the diesel versions of these cars have way better high speed manners, but of course, slow speed drive suffers. Anyway, precisely what the doctor ordered for high speed highway driving, and I love the stiff suspension setup on the CRDi Elantra.

You are so right, but I would take rather take the ability go fast, compared to the all the handling which is there to be used if only it would go faster in the first place?

Put a turbo in a petrol, and you have the same "problem". Of course, for me, the turbo spooling up is not a problem, it is pleasure.

Now, if you can hold gear, ie, if you have more revs, the car would eventually accelerate faster? I still miss a good petrol engine for that. Wish there were more turbo petrol cars around in India...
A stiffer suspension will only reduce body roll. It obviously can't change the weight distribution. The car still stays front heavy no matter how much you stiffen up the suspension and the handling suffers when you change direction.

Again... as I said I'm not comparing my car to yours or to any other. There's no real point of straight line speed if at every other corner, you have brake to slow down. I'd rather take a slower straight line speed and the ability to maintain that speed when cornering with complete confidence than the other way round. There's a reason why we never see any elantras or magnums either in the rally or circuit racing scene while there are bucketloads of cedias and fiestas.

The difference between a turbo petrol and a turbo diesel is that the diesel has a very narrow power band of ~2000rpm or less whereas a turbo petrol has a powerband of atleast 3000-4000rpm or so which makes it much easier to maintain revs.
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Old 30th July 2008, 00:38   #20
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I have been driving a Accent CRDi Viva for the last 4 years and have covered around 55000 kms in it including highway miles.

The drivability is fantastic and the instant power I get in second and third gear catches most petrol cars totally of guard. The car still does angry wheelspins from first to second gear and its never lacking for power.

BUT..

For a daily drive, I would still prefer a petrol car.

Why?

Silence & Refinement - especially at idling. CRDi or not, a 2 year old diesel car always has a pronounced vibration and sound. That agricultural tremor which intrudes into the cabin and makes you want to turn the car off, just so you can enjoy the silence.

This vibration/sound is mostly absent at idle in a good petrol motor. In a Honda/Mitsu engine, one has to look at the tachometer to tell whether the engine is running!

And unfortunately, all of us spend a good amount of time idling at traffic lights etc.

Will I buy a petrol car next time? No.

Why? Because diesel is cheaper to run.

Last edited by AbhiJ : 30th July 2008 at 00:40.
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Old 30th July 2008, 00:41   #21
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Originally Posted by reignofchaos View Post
Lets not get off topic here but let me put it this way... a bone stock cedia will beat a bone stock elantra CRDi in a 0-100 drag and also to the quarter mile. Modified ofcouse... well depends on the level of modification of both.
I was saying your car is slow because you said you will take handling instead of acceleration. I thought you said that because you feel your car handles well, but is slow.

And not really off topic this is. So for some guys like me, driving pleasure is about how fast the car goes. And how well it stops, and how well it can corner etc, in that order.

And you bring up a very good point. It is so bloody simple, easy and safe to increase the power output of these diesels by some 30-40bhp. Do you know how many dark side threads you will see on this forum if many people try to increase the power output on all their petrols by similar amounts?

And about quarter miles and drags, neither of us do that in real life right? All we get to do is go on tbhp drives, and on public roads with traffic, the in gear acceleration of the diesels will makes them objects farther in the rear view mirror than they appear.

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Originally Posted by reignofchaos View Post
A stiffer suspension will only reduce body roll. It obviously can't change the weight distribution. The car still stays front heavy no matter how much you stiffen up the suspension and the handling suffers when you change direction.

Again... as I said I'm not comparing my car to yours or to any other. There's no real point of straight line speed if at every other corner, you have brake to slow down.
We drove a long distance together, and the video was also posted on the forum. If what you say is true, why was I able to overtake you like you were standing still? I was surprised at how slow the Cedia was when you later told me you were pushing and trying to follow me...
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Old 30th July 2008, 00:46   #22
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Originally Posted by tadukuttan View Post
We drove a long distance together, and the video was also posted on the forum. If what you say is true, why was I able to overtake you like you were standing still? I was surprised at how slow the Cedia was when you later told me you were pushing and trying to follow me...
Your car is modified... mine ain't isn't it simple? Plus at that point of time, I was on stock tyres and the car had hardly done 1500km. Get the mods out and lets see which car is faster shall we? Whoever loses, beer on him what say . This is waaaay off topic.

Last edited by reignofchaos : 30th July 2008 at 00:48.
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Old 30th July 2008, 00:48   #23
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Originally Posted by DCEite View Post


No longer is the daily/monthly/yearly running the only criteria of selecting the diesel version of a particular car. Driving pleasure is one area where diesel cars are beginning to make a strong case for themselves.

With superb in-gear acceleration, and truckloads of torque lower down the revv range, diesel engine cars are proving to be more fun to drive compared to the high revving petrol counterparts, in real world traffic. Prime examples:- Swift Petrol/Swift Diesel. Same goes with Palio 1.1 and Palio MJD.
While I agree with everything you say about Diesels, what about the Palio 1.6 ? You very conveniently left it out in you list of Palios. That 1.6 screaming at 6000 rpm with a free flow exhaust is the definition of driving pleasure, and is pure mechanical music.

Good as new generation diesels are, in terms of driving pleasure, they just cannot match a really nice high performance gasoline engine. Especially Italian ones.

But of course if you compare them to teeny tiny petrol econo gasoline engines, your argument is valid.
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Old 30th July 2008, 00:57   #24
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I hope swift ddis has changed all the calculations (noise, drive comfort...)
But as far as driving comfort I will still prefer petrol over diesel for its high rev capability. Driving Sonata (latest model) now days, ofcorse petrol.
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Old 30th July 2008, 01:36   #25
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One thing which I don't see mentioned, some part of the "driving pleasure" also comes from how little you have to spend, or home much more you can drive with the same amount of money.

For me, who used to drive around quite a bit, getting much lower fuel bills surely has only increased the pleasure. Redlining frequently and keeping that accelerator pressed on a powerful petrol, even something as powerful as the palio 1.6, always feel "wrong", burning up all that expensive gas...

Is it just me, or anybody else feels the amount of money being spent has to do with how much more you can enjoy the acceleration without getting guilty pangs?
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Old 30th July 2008, 01:56   #26
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Originally Posted by iraghava View Post
From what I've gathered most modern diesels have that initial surge which makes them a pain to drive in city traffic since you've constantly press the clutch to control it. In bumper to bumper traffic, you still can't potter around like you can in a petrol without having to constantly use the clutch.
Agreed,but only with car like verna and magnum which have just on or off kind of throttle response which can be very painful in lower gears but other diesel a joy to use in traffic.
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Old 30th July 2008, 03:21   #27
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Agreed,but only with car like verna and magnum which have just on or off kind of throttle response which can be very painful in lower gears but other diesel a joy to use in traffic.
Once you are used to the turbo, driving in city traffic is not problematic at all. At least in the swift DDiS it wasn't. Most often, I would just let off the clutch, not use the accelerator at all to move along at a walking pace.
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Old 30th July 2008, 03:23   #28
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Originally Posted by tadukuttan View Post
One thing which I don't see mentioned, some part of the "driving pleasure" also comes from how little you have to spend, or home much more you can drive with the same amount of money.

For me, who used to drive around quite a bit, getting much lower fuel bills surely has only increased the pleasure. Redlining frequently and keeping that accelerator pressed on a powerful petrol, even something as powerful as the palio 1.6, always feel "wrong", burning up all that expensive gas...

Is it just me, or anybody else feels the amount of money being spent has to do with how much more you can enjoy the acceleration without getting guilty pangs?
+1. I used to smile everytime I tanked up. I was enjoying every km that I put on the odo, the smiles per litre feeling for diesel is unmatched.
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Old 30th July 2008, 06:03   #29
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I agree. I drive two cars on a regular basis, an Accord 2.4 and a Laura AT. The Laura is sooo much more fun to drive. Actually I also drive a petrol Lancer but that does not even come close [although I still love that car].

WRT pure acceleration the new diesels actually almost match their petrol counterparts. For example I think the difference in 0-100 in the 5 series [petrol/diesel] is only about .1 sec and IIRC some of the merc diesels are actually faster than their petrol equivalents.
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Old 30th July 2008, 07:31   #30
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Originally Posted by reignofchaos View Post
Heard of something called torque steer? It ain't a very pleasant experience. Try out the magnum or the verna and you'll know what I mean.
I find torque steer great fun. If you know your car well enough, it isnt a problem.

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Originally Posted by tadukuttan View Post

And not really off topic this is. So for some guys like me, driving pleasure is about how fast the car goes. And how well it stops, and how well it can corner etc, in that order.

And you bring up a very good point. It is so bloody simple, easy and safe to increase the power output of these diesels by some 30-40bhp. Do you know how many dark side threads you will see on this forum if many people try to increase the power output on all their petrols by similar amounts?
the road would be littered with wrecks of petrols trying desperately to up their power and torque.

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We drove a long distance together, and the video was also posted on the forum. If what you say is true, why was I able to overtake you like you were standing still? I was surprised at how slow the Cedia was when you later told me you were pushing and trying to follow me...
Hehehehe
The cedia has been hobbled by HM. it doesnt have an engine that does justice to the chassis. It was heart breaking to see such a good enthusiast's car being turned into a humdrum sedan.

on the highways, the only vehicles that go faster than me or anyone else are common rail diesels. count and see.

There is no challenge in driving a high revving petrol fast.
Mash the go-pedal to the floor board and hold on. anyone can do that.I've done that, I agree its fun, but its not as fun as playing with the torque on a diesel powerband.

The other thing to note is that, quite a few petrol heads have not experienced new gen diesels enough. try them with an open mind, your opinion will change.
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