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Old 7th August 2008, 19:29   #16
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Originally Posted by finneyp View Post
Also there is a good demand for preowned Palios in the Used car market, but most of the Palio owners don't easily sell their cars, so very difficult to get used Palios in the market.
Why would it be the case that `Palio owners don't easily sell their cars'. Could it be:
1 emotional reasons (fantastic car)
2. difficult to sell
3. collector's item and will appreciate with usage
4. the money received may not even a new bike in exchange for a old `AC 4 wheeler'.
5. there is no better alternative on either side of 20 lakhs.
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Old 7th August 2008, 19:33   #17
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In India main reason for fiat to fail is the lack of service and dealers for the product
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Old 7th August 2008, 23:04   #18
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Like the Siena, the Palio was always good VFM and a great package back in 2001. It was a success then. Then the downslide began:

1. The Indian mindset is more focussed towards mileage, economy and reliabiltity than ride, handling and build quality. The heavier Palio 1.2 gives 9-13 kpl in city driving as opposed to 12-15 kpl for Santro / Wagon R. Who looks at torque curves and high speed stability when the zippy 1.1 erlx Santro gives rev happy rides at 20% more mileage?

2. Once the sales drop, the profits drop. Company mismanages and loses interest (did they?). Once margins reduce and numbers of cars sold reduces, dealers become apathetic. Its a vicious cycle.

3. The A.S.S. experience worsened because very few good service personnel who have knowledge about Palios stick around. In some cases, even the dealers / ASC move on to other brands. Even some of the new Tata ASC don't know about Palios, just do hit and trial.

4. Although fairly well-built with decent mechanicals, some bits like electricals, fans, speedo-odo etc tend to give trouble with Palios. Have gathered that from other owners' experience.

5. Low sales = less numbers on the road = low demand for spares = less availablilty of spares.

6. Basic funda: As long as products sell in good numbers, everything's fine, everybody's happy. That was the case with the Palio in a nutshell. Once the sales drop and the company destroys its reputation, all the effort is wasted. Anybody buying a Palio today has to take the promises of Tata-Fiat as a risk.

7. @finney: No doubt a lot of Palio owners love their cars. But many don't sell it because the car is still in a condition that its far better value than the pittance you get for it the second hand market. Palios age well and the poor resale price sometimes makes people stick to their for longer. E.g. A 5-yr old Petra in Delhi goes for 1.5 lacs but a 5-yr old Baleno goes for 3 lacs. Now I would rather stick around with the Petra till its almost equal to junk rather than sell it for 1.25 lacs whereas selling the Baleno will get me enough for downpayment of a new car!

Now, if you want that 1.6 GTX for a steal and are willing to do the effort to get it "reconditioned", you are in luck!!

Last edited by architect : 7th August 2008 at 23:16.
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Old 7th August 2008, 23:29   #19
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Quote:
Why would it be the case that `Palio owners don't easily sell their cars'. Could it be:
1 emotional reasons (fantastic car)
2. difficult to sell
3. collector's item and will appreciate with usage
4. the money received may not even a new bike in exchange for a old `AC 4 wheeler'.
5. there is no better alternative on either side of 20 lakhs.
Vasudeva, very valid points. I would say its a combination of some of the factors you mentioned. IMO, these are the reasons:
1. In 90% of the cases, people buy a Palio going by their heart and not by their head. So, there's always an emotional attachment to it. When I bought mine, not a single person encouraged me, but still I went ahead and bought it and till today, I never had a situation where I would have regretted my decision.
2. It is kindoff difficult to sell as well wrt the fact that you will never get a good price.
3. Its actually not a collectors item and will not appreciate with time. But, it will take care of you as long you take care of it. Its a car meant for those who dont wish to sell it off within 5 years time.
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Old 8th August 2008, 00:04   #20
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Vasudeva ji,

Lovely posts on this thread. Ideal fiat bait stuff so we must separate the sensible stuff that you said, from the entertainment (for want of a better word).

Quote:
`Palio owners don't easily sell their cars'. Could it be:
1 emotional reasons (fantastic car)
2. difficult to sell
3. collector's item and will appreciate with usage
4. the money received may not even a new bike in exchange for a old `AC 4 wheeler'.
5. there is no better alternative on either side of 20 lakhs.
1. Maybe for small %
2. The actual genuine reason.
3. You are now talking out of your rearside, starting now
4. The hyperbole begins now - or maybe its the post-work period when we switch off reason and negotiate delhi traffic. Because the previous post had been absolutely spot on.
5. Ha ha, the hyperbole hits the fan.

Good overall, nothing like reality mixed with ridicule. Good post work entertainment.

and GTO saab, what do I say:
Quote:
No one wants the Palio new, no one wants it used either.
Your statement while pithy and rooted in % sales of segment - maybe fit for a speech could do with rationale, since that's what the poster really wants to understand. Fact is that palios are an end of product life cycle car, and besides a facelift, a NEW vehicle should have come. That and the previous ghosts accounts for lack of sales of current version.

As for the older one, simple issues like low mileage of 1.2 (urban legend/fact i donno), service backup, spares availability and the fiat ghosts have made it underpriced. Its not a bad buy by anyone's standard. of course, Architect has patiently dissected it. I would say your post for a newbie is dangerous - not until he reads it with mature commentary/rationale like architect's!

And before I am called a fiat fanboy, would lovingly ask the junta to really consider resale prices for say a Ford Fusion, a vehicle that hasnt set the charts on fire itself, whose spares prices are legendary, and service network isn't leagues ahead of Fiat's.
yet: CarValue | My Valuations | CarWale CarValue - CarWale.com vs CarValue | My Valuations | CarWale CarValue - CarWale.com Its unfortunate that some initial rational posts are followed up with rhetoric. Let's actually give newbies sensible advice than motherhood statements which the average tom d-- and harry on the street anyways gives.

Last edited by phamilyman : 8th August 2008 at 00:18.
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Old 8th August 2008, 09:23   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by phamilyman
Fact is that palios are an end of product life cycle car, and besides a facelift, a NEW vehicle should have come. That and the previous ghosts accounts for lack of sales of current version..
Well, Fiat is not alone in flogging end-of-product life-cycle cars in India. Maruti is the master at that game, flogging the M800 for 25 years now, and till recently the Esteem, Baleno, Zen etc etc. Same goes for the Ikon from Ford, Accent from Hyundai, Octavia from Skoda etc etc. Yet, these cars sell. So that is not a valid reason in the Indian car market.

Quote:
Originally Posted by phamilyman
And before I am called a fiat fanboy, would lovingly ask the junta to really consider resale prices for say a Ford Fusion,
I did not understand the rationale behind comparing the resale of 2 cars that are not exactly same segments/types - one is a proper sedan, while the other is not sure what it is exactly - a hatch or an SUV or a half-sedan.

IMO a fair comparo would be between the Petra and Baleno, both sedans of same cc and both did not exactly set the sales charts on fire. See the Chennai resale values for the same month/year (Mar2005) Petra and Baleno that ran the same 25K kms and you would get an idea of the huge difference in resale values :

Individual value for a car in Excellent condition.

2005 Maruti Suzuki Baleno LXi - BS III in Chennai - Rs.4,06,000
2005 Fiat Petra 1.6 EL PS in Chennai ------------- Rs.2,42,500

The Maruti commands almost double the Fiat. The on-road price in 2005 for the Baleno was 5.8lakhs from which it has depreciated just 1.74lakhs. Not sure what the price was for a Petra in 2005 - guess close to the Baleno.

A car experience does not end with buying a good car. Especially in India, where people want to stretch the rupee to the max, use products for a lifetime and more. And in such cases, FE, after-sales-service etc are key. Lack of these along with a management that did not even react (forget being pro-active) led to the Palio being where it is.
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Old 8th August 2008, 09:50   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GTO View Post
..No one wants the Palio new, no one wants it used either.
Won't agree with this blanket statement. There are ample folks buying a Palio, both new and used and even the upcoming planned models.


Quote:
Originally Posted by GTO View Post
Poor resale makes for a fantastic used buy though, as many enthusiasts have discovered with the 1.6 GTX.
In fact, thats a great +ve for folks who are looking for the best VFM performance car in India today. There is NOTHING better than the Palio 1.6 in India today for MAX 2L.

This was the reason for me to but a Palio S10. I don't like or hate FIAT. It's the car that I love.
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Old 8th August 2008, 09:56   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vasudeva View Post
Why would it be the case that `Palio owners don't easily sell their cars'. Could it be:
1 emotional reasons (fantastic car)
2. difficult to sell
3. collector's item and will appreciate with usage
4. the money received may not even a new bike in exchange for a old `AC 4 wheeler'.
5. there is no better alternative on either side of 20 lakhs.
My reason - 1,2,3,4,5 !!
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Old 8th August 2008, 10:00   #24
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In some other thread somebody calculated Cost/BHP. And Palio 1.6 took the crown for least cost. Looking at the sales, there is more to car than BHP, after all.
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Old 8th August 2008, 10:14   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by finneyp View Post
GTO, this statement doesn't hold good now, considering the success of Palio 1.3 MJD, we can see so many new Palio MJDs on this forum & as well as on Bangalore roads!
Quote:
There are ample folks buying a Palio, both new and used and even the upcoming planned models.
The MJD may have *improved* sales, but it is surely not what we can call a market success. The Palio is still the worst selling hatchback in India. Numbers do not lie.

Quote:
Also there is a good demand for preowned Palios in the Used car market,
Define good demand. If the demand was indeed strong, then the resales would go up to. Somehow, we don't see that happening.

Quote:
Originally Posted by phamilyman View Post
Fact is that palios are an end of product life cycle car, and besides a facelift, a NEW vehicle should have come.
There are several other cars that are at the end of product lifecycle and still generate decent resale. The NHC, Corolla, discontinued OHC etc. are some that come to mind. Even the Zen, at the end of its lifecycle, commanded decent resale.

Quote:
As for the older one, simple issues like low mileage of 1.2 (urban legend/fact i donno), service backup, spares availability and the fiat ghosts have made it underpriced.
Not only is this the reason for *underpriced* used Palios, it is also the reason for many to have avoided new Palios altogether.

Mine was a blunt blanket statement, Yes. But thats not taking the truth away from it. The Palio is the worst selling hatchback in India today. Any car that is a sales flop when new, has terrible resale in the used market too (rare exceptions). We aren't singling out the Palio. Even the Getz has poor resale. When not too many want to buy it new, how many would want to buy it used?
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Old 8th August 2008, 10:17   #26
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Cars manufacturers follow Price elasticity of demand. If demand of the product increases they increase the price and if it reduces they give discounts and in some rare cases reduce the price. In the case of FIAT cars the demand low despite it being low priced. If FIAT tries to increase the price the sales will reduce to ZERO.

Even at the current price point there are very few takers of FIAT cars.
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Old 8th August 2008, 10:19   #27
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Resale depends on the reputation of a car and its manufacturer with general public,resale value of newer palios with multijet engines may be better after some years compared to the petrol variants.
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Old 8th August 2008, 10:48   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GTO View Post
No one wants the Palio new, no one wants it used either.
Me like the exclusivity. And yes, the pricing is simple demand and supply. In this case supply is less, and the demand is even lesser. There are many reasons for the low demand, which everybody is pointing out. Who wants a car which everybody and their brother own anyway?Some great bargains to be had, that is for sure.
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Old 8th August 2008, 11:03   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GTO View Post
The MJD may have *improved* sales, but it is surely not what we can call a market success.
If Fiat makes 600 MJDs and selling all 600 MJDs, I will definitly call it a Market success!
I hope Fiat will increase its production capacity soon!


Quote:
Originally Posted by GTO View Post
Define good demand. If the demand was indeed strong, then the resales would go up to. Somehow, we don't see that happening.
Actually, the resale value of Palio has gone up in the last 2 years!
But, still not in the league of Maruti, Honda.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GTO View Post
The Palio is the worst selling hatchback in India today.
May be, the Worst selling, but for me, it is the Best Hatchback in the country!
And thatz what matters to me end of the day!

Last edited by finneyp : 8th August 2008 at 11:05.
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Old 8th August 2008, 11:21   #30
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Nice logic there about sale success.

So since the current demand is atleast 600MJDs (as per sales figures), I think Fiat should cut production to maybe 300MJDs, so that it can claim 100% sales and also an order backlog too, which would indicate huge public demand for the car. That would make it on par with the Swift-D with its long waiting list and everyone can go home happy.

Just because a product does not sell, it does not become a bad product. So, no one here is debating whether the Palio is a good car or not. The discussion is only about its low resale prices, which IMO are due to a host of reasons which are mostly about everything other than the car itself (excluding the FE, which is about the car).
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