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Old 12th September 2008, 08:14   #421
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Originally Posted by chncar View Post
I'm sorry, but I would rather have my tax money going to private entrepreneurs to build industry than to the Mamtas/Commies/Politicos/Babus of the country. Or for that matter to keep PSUs alive that cant turn out a single competitive or quality product, yet focus on reservations, job security, unionization, anti-privatization, and language promotion.
Not all politicians/Babus are bad and not all private entrepreneurs and businessmen are good. What is there to suggest the private entrepreneur would not run away with the money?

In old times (probably now also in villages or small towns) the local sahukaars fleeced poor like anything! In fact history suggests most of the businessmen in india have been pretty bad!!! In the pre-libralization years most of them just siphoned off money from here in to their swiss bank accounts... the common 'keeda' in an indian businessperson's blood is profiteering rather than profit-sharing! Most businesses (even big ones) are family run and closely family controlled and totally at mercy of promoters i.e. controlling family). We have seen so many of them (the Birlas, the Modis, Mafatlals etc) who were huge at one point have almost disappeared now!

Businesses are generally cyclic in nature. What is hot today could completely go out of market tomorrow. A very good case here is the various mills in mumbai. they were big employers at one time but what about them now and the thousands of workers (many of them must have been farmers)? The only sustainable very long term activity is in fact Agriculture (has sustained for thousands of years!) Thats why I think it should have policy precedence over any other business! There is no need to build factories on agri land when waste land is available. and its a huge disincentive to agriculture if farmlands are forcibly taken and converted to industries who might or might not survive! Today there is Ratan Tata who is good but what about tomorrow. His successor might or might not be that good (as they are so diversified I dont know if they can keep competing) and the entire empire might crumble (I think Corus and JLR are huge huge risks) and we dont know if it would be good for Singur plant or not (just an example here). What happens to workers (who are probably farmers now but will be converted to factory workers) in case say after 'x' years Tatas decide to fold up?
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Old 12th September 2008, 09:22   #422
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Originally Posted by chncar View Post
I'm sorry, but I would rather have my tax money going to private entrepreneurs to build industry than to the Mamtas/Commies/Politicos/Babus of the country. Or for that matter to keep PSUs alive that cant turn out a single competitive or quality product, yet focus on reservations, job security, unionization, anti-privatization, and language promotion.

Well said, chncar!!! What irritates me is these guys who are so vocal about Tatas 200 crores LOAN are silent about thousands of crores of LOOT by politicians.

Netfreak, agreed that one crime does not justfiy the other crime. But why don't you speak against politicians' LOOT like you are doing against Tatas' LOAN? These politicos build multiple spacious bunglows with this money, encroach hundreds of acres of prime land, have store rooms to stash ceiling high stacks of thousand rupee notes and their sons go bersek all over the city with their SUVs pushing everyone over and teasing, kidnapping and raping girls. Haven't you heard about such incidents? In Bihar a politicos' son hit a poor scooterist with his SUV, got down, picked up the fallen guy and thrashed him royally for coming in his way. But you have no problem with such guys. But Tatas? They are criminals. Right?
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Old 12th September 2008, 10:55   #423
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Originally Posted by joslicx View Post
The only sustainable very long term activity is in fact Agriculture (has sustained for thousands of years!)

I assume 1000 years sustained Agriculture here refers to the following:
1. a piece of land divided every year between offspirngs of each generation
2. Something green on that land, does not matter if its quality is good or bad, or it sustains the farmer's family or not
3. a few loans, if from private enterprise then a tension to pay back, if from a nationalised bank, then a prayer for a loan waiver.
What's the use if all that govt is going to do for you is that a farmer has land and there is no focus on helping him with making the right choices for inputs and best ways to practice agriculture. all that they will do is give a loan waiver in the end.
Its easy to disrupt, and thats what MB is doing, but once the land is back or for farmers in rest of WB who have land, has she done anything to help them make right choices in terms of seeds, fertilizers, crop rotation etc and get maximum out of their limited land?

A 1000 acre in WB or in 10 more states will not destroy Indian agriculture. lack of proper guidance to farmers and loan waivers will destroy much more

In that 1000 acres I would prefer to have a tata factory and see MB (or as you mention the good babus/politicians) concentrating on helping rest of farmers in adaptingt to modern farming.

Last edited by METISWHG : 12th September 2008 at 10:56. Reason: wrong quote
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Old 12th September 2008, 12:05   #424
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In that 1000 acres I would prefer to have a tata factory and see MB (or as you mention the good babus/politicians) concentrating on helping rest of farmers in adaptingt to modern farming.
Thats the issue. It is about farmer's preference (not your or mine).

They owned this land. Unless absolutely necessary to build roads/dams (and other things that can;t be built anywhere else), no govt should acquire it forcefully.

Govt has HUGE forest land. Trees can be cut and it can be used for business. There must be lot of non fertile land it can be used.

If Business wants land owned by farmers, it has to deal with them and negotiate the price.
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Old 12th September 2008, 12:08   #425
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Originally Posted by NetfreakBombay View Post

Govt has HUGE forest land. Trees can be cut and it can be used for business. There must be lot of non fertile land it can be used.

Of course Trees can be cut.
They have no role in anything.
Who needs oxygen, rains, prevent soil erosion, save the wild animals etc etc.
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Old 12th September 2008, 12:48   #426
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Originally Posted by METISWHG View Post
I assume 1000 years sustained Agriculture here refers to the following:
1. a piece of land divided every year between offspirngs of each generation
2. Something green on that land, does not matter if its quality is good or bad, or it sustains the farmer's family or not
3. a few loans, if from private enterprise then a tension to pay back, if from a nationalised bank, then a prayer for a loan waiver.


Yet generations after generations have survived on it!!! Buddy you need to understand that farmers are also entrepreneurs in their own right.

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What's the use if all that govt is going to do for you is that a farmer has land and there is no focus on helping him with making the right choices for inputs and best ways to practice agriculture. all that they will do is give a loan waiver in the end.
Exactly my sentiments! Govt should be supportive of agriculture not destroy it! Its another thing if they are not doing it. But they cannot forcibly acquire it and give it to a private business house!!!
Quote:
A 1000 acre in WB or in 10 more states will not destroy Indian agriculture. lack of proper guidance to farmers and loan waivers will destroy much more

In that 1000 acres I would prefer to have a tata factory and see MB (or as you mention the good babus/politicians) concentrating on helping rest of farmers in adaptingt to modern farming.
Wrong! Its not just about 1000 acres of land. Its also about people's rights. Most villages are self sustaining (realistically what does govt do for villages? they have no electricity (or if they have its only maybe 2-3 hours supply a day), no modern education, no banks or hospitals in most cases and its amazing still they are surviving) The one fundamental aspect of all this is role of agriculture. Even with antiquated techniques (and I am really not sure if so called modern techniques are really better) most farmers are surviving. If there are farmers who need help then govt should help them and not strip them of their land and livelihood. I would say being an independent farmer even a small one is a million times better than being landless and a daily-wage factory worker who is bound to follow others!! There is no guarantee that the factory will remain there in 10 years or in 50 years. who knows if tatas would still be as successful and not wind up.

Food, Air, water etc are basic necessities of life. These should always take policy precedence over luxuries (like cars are)! We all can do without cars but not without food. if all farmers would just lose their land or sell their land for factories then what will people eat?
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Old 12th September 2008, 13:53   #427
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Originally Posted by joslicx View Post
If all farmers would just lose their land or sell their land for factories then what will people eat?
People will eat from the perks they get from TATA or any other industry who employes them. I would rather work in a an Factory under a roof than ploughing my cows in open Fields under hot sun.
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Old 12th September 2008, 14:19   #428
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Originally Posted by NetfreakBombay View Post
This is MY money (and every other taxpayer's) it must not be given to any business. Business can raise the cost of goods. Why should I pay for somebody else's car??

It would be better spent on Roads/ Hospitals/ Schools/ Collages. India needs lots of them.

And govt got taste of this medicine when it lost elections just after Nandigram fiasco.

Exactly! Where were you when the government wrote of Rs. 60,000,00,00,000 on loans to farmers? Was it not tax payers' money? What were you doing when govts. across the country announce free power supply to farmers? Was that not tax payers' money? In that massive scheme of loan waiver banks lost big time because the waiver happened within two months and the reimbursement to banks is spread out over 3 years! Now do you understand that for a bank making money on interest is its lifeline and the government was just killing the banking system? So you loot electricity companies and banks and the tax payers to run agriculture. We are all talking of poor farmers who were always victimised. In fact farmers as a vote bank have victimised many other sections.

Last edited by sridhga : 12th September 2008 at 14:35.
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Old 12th September 2008, 15:29   #429
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Originally Posted by sridhga View Post
Exactly! Where were you when the government wrote of Rs. 60,000,00,00,000 on loans to farmers? Was it not tax payers' money? What were you doing when govts. across the country announce free power supply to farmers? Was that not tax payers' money? In that massive scheme of loan waiver banks lost big time because the waiver happened within two months and the reimbursement to banks is spread out over 3 years! Now do you understand that for a bank making money on interest is its lifeline and the government was just killing the banking system? So you loot electricity companies and banks and the tax payers to run agriculture. We are all talking of poor farmers who were always victimised. In fact farmers as a vote bank have victimised many other sections.
. Infact we the tax paying people are always victimised taking the name of farmers/scholarships/cesses on various products.

I think we need to stick to the tpoic of Singur and Tata rather than debating farmers and tax payers.
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Old 12th September 2008, 15:39   #430
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People will eat from the perks they get from TATA or any other industry who employes them. I would rather work in a an Factory under a roof than ploughing my cows in open Fields under hot sun.
But that is not what our politicians would want the villagers to be. They always want the mass to be uninformedly happy about life and never to come up in life to be able to question them. Well, good or bad for the farmers, that is debatable. And that is true for any development and advancements. General belief is that development is good. So, if farmers are employed in a factory, they will be under payroll. They will start having ambitions. They will be insured in the time of sickness or ill fate, etc. Overall, the state of the Indian farmers is pretty bad and no one, not even the people who are supporting to let them remain as they are, will not be willing to be farmer.
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Old 12th September 2008, 15:41   #431
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People will eat from the perks they get from TATA or any other industry who employes them. I would rather work in a an Factory under a roof than ploughing my cows in open Fields under hot sun.
what if the factory makes u work near a furnace?

And what happens when they ultimately fire you? You'll be reduced to a begger. Nice journey from a land-owning self-respecting farmer to a begger!
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Old 12th September 2008, 16:05   #432
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And what happens when they ultimately fire you? You'll be reduced to a begger. Nice journey from a land-owning self-respecting farmer to a begger!
I wonder if you read about the first farmer suicide at Singur a couple of weeks back, thanks to Mamata's agitation?

It was a family of five, the father had sold land & got approx 15 lacs or so (I forget the exact amount). The family prospered, the three sons got employment at the Nano plant & the daily income of the family went up to Rs 200 or 300 odd (from about 40 or 50 that it was before the land was sold).

Then, along came the trouble maker (as in Mamata B), the factory was closed & the family income started to slide. In a hasty & (perhaps) over-reactive action, the father consumed pesticide. And died. The mother vocally blamed Mamata & her gang for having been responsible for agitating unnecessarily. For a change, Mamata had no answers.

Maybe the locals are tired of being land-owning farmers getting little or no returns from the land...........as for self respect, perhaps they feel that an assured job means more?

Last edited by suman : 12th September 2008 at 16:17.
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Old 12th September 2008, 16:12   #433
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Originally Posted by joslicx View Post
what if the factory makes u work near a furnace?

And what happens when they ultimately fire you? You'll be reduced to a begger. Nice journey from a land-owning self-respecting farmer to a begger!
the self respecting part is interesting.
land provide assurance not respect - and land needs inputs for outputs.
With loans from money lender and banks, with no clue where to buy original BT seeds(just an example) and no info on the fact that dont plant BT seeds again, its not so easy to have self respect (& i am not talking about others respecting you or ones ego).
All our forefathers were farmers, but we arent. we want all those who are sustenance farmers right now to remain so. how many of us would take up farming at this stage (and it doesnt mean a farmhouse).
For most sutenance farmers, who lose money every other season in crop failure and rest of earnings in interest.. farming is not about a self respecting life...its just hanging on to avoid death till your kids get a job that can help live.
maybe I am wrong, but i have seen it in interiors of places like UP, AP and Punjab.

Last edited by METISWHG : 12th September 2008 at 16:15. Reason: missed out
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Old 12th September 2008, 16:55   #434
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What's the latest on Nano from Singur? We are pretty sure that the launch models will be from elsewhere (Pune, Pantnagar), but will the Nano ever be produced in Singur (its chosen home?) To me, it looks unlikely that they will produce the Nano there. They might switch the factory (if it ever starts) to produce somethign else.
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Old 12th September 2008, 20:19   #435
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It was a family of five, the father had sold land & got approx 15 lacs or so (I forget the exact amount). The family prospered, the three sons got employment at the Nano plant & the daily income of the family went up to Rs 200 or 300 odd (from about 40 or 50 that it was before the land was sold).

Maybe the locals are tired of being land-owning farmers getting little or no returns from the land...........as for self respect, perhaps they feel that an assured job means more?
Must say I am impressed! If only the monkeys (spelled with a 'd' ;-) ) in the finance ministry had this kind of imagination the country could have saved 60k crores! For all we have to do is to just forcibly acquire lands of all those poor farmers and give it to industrialists (and the govt can actually make money in this process as govt rates are far less than market rates)! Our industrialists, angels they are, will no doubt build all the necessary roads,hospitals,schools, etc for the poor villagers, employ them at excellent wages (whosoever heard of exploitation is quite stupid or a communist!) and then villagers also will have world class living standards that we all enjoy in our big cities Amazing that it was such a simple solution yet the govt has been completely ignorant so far really!!! Now that WB govt has shown the way, perhaps time for Cong (or whatever govt it is at the center) to implement it all over India?

And yes you are right about the self-respect part. Only the rich can afford self-respect these days!!! Perhaps you can also tell how rich one has to be to be able to say he/she has some self-respect?
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