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Old 12th September 2008, 22:20   #436
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Originally Posted by NetfreakBombay View Post
Govt schools are free, so anybody can afford studying there. And if someone is starving, give him food rather then giving money to business.

Its not like TATA is in deep loss and needs taxpayer's support for survival.
ummm... so all those under 13 kids working in cafe's, as house maids, as road side vendors, as mechanics are not going to schools because there are not enough free schools? No, it is because their parents cannot 'afford' to lose the money the kid would be earning. The parents cannot afford it because they do not earn enough to feed themselves and the kids.

This is the main reason behind mid-day meal schemes in most states, so that parents do not feel the pinch of losing a earning body.

TATA may not be in deep losses but the business model is to build a cheap car. They can build a cheap car if they get cheap land and tax sops. The govt. cannot create employment for 10,000 people using 200 cr.

With a billion plus population, India needs jobs. I believe jobs are more important than schools, roads and hospitals. If people have jobs then people will have spending power. When people spend money, industrial production increases leading to more jobs. When that happens, governemnt does not have to build free schools or hospitals, people can afford private schools and hospitals. Agriculture doesn't cut it. The amount of arable land can only be increased that much, that too at the expense of environment. The population on the other hand keeps increasing. The land cannot support the small farmers anymore and give them a good quality of life. They have to make a choice, either find a job and educate kids or live on the land and divide it between kids.
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Old 13th September 2008, 00:17   #437
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The talks between West Bengal Chief Minister Buddhadeb Bhattacharjee and Trinamool Congress chief Mamata Banerjee on Friday evening to settle the Singur imbroglio failed to bring out any positive results.

Times Now sources say Mamata walked out of the meeting demanding the return of full 300 acres of land in Singur and asking the government not to go back on “gentleman’s words”.

to read complete news go to Singur row: Talks between Buddhadeb, Mamata fail- Automobiles-Auto-News By Industry-News-The Economic Times

This is the height of Hopelessness. Hence its proved that in India, political parties can do anything they want & can stop any project & the government will only watch all the tamasha to loose everything!
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Old 13th September 2008, 02:17   #438
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ummm... so all those under 13 kids working in cafe's, as house maids, as road side vendors, as mechanics are not going to schools because there are not enough free schools? No, it is because their parents cannot 'afford' to lose the money the kid would be earning. The parents cannot afford it because they do not earn enough to feed themselves and the kids.

This is the main reason behind mid-day meal schemes in most states, so that parents do not feel the pinch of losing a earning body.

TATA may not be in deep losses but the business model is to build a cheap car. They can build a cheap car if they get cheap land and tax sops. The govt. cannot create employment for 10,000 people using 200 cr.

With a billion plus population, India needs jobs. I believe jobs are more important than schools, roads and hospitals. If people have jobs then people will have spending power. When people spend money, industrial production increases leading to more jobs. When that happens, governemnt does not have to build free schools or hospitals, people can afford private schools and hospitals. Agriculture doesn't cut it. The amount of arable land can only be increased that much, that too at the expense of environment. The population on the other hand keeps increasing. The land cannot support the small farmers anymore and give them a good quality of life. They have to make a choice, either find a job and educate kids or live on the land and divide it between kids.
Very well said. Unless, industrial production and consumption keeps pace with the exponential and continuous growth in population here, the disparities will only continue to rise and lead to dangerous situations down the line, if not carefully managed. Most of the arable lane in India is under par, to say the least, in yield per hectare.
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Old 13th September 2008, 02:27   #439
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Most of the arable lane in India is under par, to say the least, in yield per hectare.
Exactly, most of the people have these romantic notions about agriculture being the backbone of India. That worked in 1947 when Indian had 250 mil population, but it won't work in 2010 when population is 1.1 billion and arable land has not increased at the same pace.

A family of 4 with 1 - 2 acres land and tilling it using cows should not be our idea for a 21st century India. The bigger issue is that this family with 1 - 2 acres hires another 2 from poor family as seasonal farm labor! So while it is true that a 1 acre land is providing food for 4 families, it is grossly inefficient. Now the solution to this is not grabbing the fertile land and building a factory on it. But at the same time the present situation is also unsustainable. The solution is somewhere in the middle where atleast 60% of the farm labor and small farmers are shown alternative means of employment in Organized sector while the remaining 40% own bigger lots and use more productive farming techniques.
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Old 13th September 2008, 02:40   #440
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What self-respect are you guys harping about?

Joslicx, you live in Delhi, na? Come down to South India, like AP, where every year when the crop fails, farmers commit suicide by the thousands, leaving behind orphans to beg on the streets. Visit Kalahandi, where the odd crop failure turns the people into Indian Somalians. Come to Karnataka, where once-poor farmers who had bicycles now drive Scorpios because their land prices have skyrocketed due to industry.

This is not Delhi, or Punjab, where a single farming family owns thousands of acres of cash crops. This is the unglamorous side of farming, where 3 generations of one family struggle on less than a dollar a day, tilling their stamp-patch of barren land, looking heavenwards praying for rain so that they won't have to kill themselves, or die of hunger.

You talk of self-respect, and big business threatening the common farmer. I talk of farmers who would WILLINGLY give up their useless land and be employed in a factory at thousands per month, after getting lakhs as compensation. That is what empowers people with self-respect, not the thought of suicide during the next drought.

And for all those people who say 'Give India to big business, they will build the roads', I say go right ahead. Give all of India to the Tatas. We will have a Tata-stan, maybe. But it will be like Jamshedpur. Where everything works, and someone is always accountable.

It's easy to bandy words like self-respect and exploitation around when you're sitting behind a safe desk, pounding on a keyboard. The reality is something very different, and I hope and pray that none of us ever have to feel it.
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Old 13th September 2008, 10:56   #441
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@ joslicx: Selling of farmlands is happening everywhere. The farmers who want to get rich and show their richness are selling their lands to real estate agents or industralists (Eg: farm lands near BIAL). Before BIAL was announced, the land was fetching only in thousands, once the BIAL started their airport building activities the rates shot up in lakhs and today the rates of land is in crores. Most of the farmers in and around that area has stopped farming and sold off their lands and have got crores.

What is the self-respect we are talking about here and to whom?
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Old 13th September 2008, 11:25   #442
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Default Another thing...

There is another calculation in the minds of people who dont want to sell their land.

Say they get to keep their land. And Nano production starts. People who sold their land to the government got a few lakhs, and maybe some jobs. But one production starts, the value of the land they get to keep goes through the root - after all it is land within the project area!

Very smart. Now not only did you not sell your land, you can now sell it directly to tata or another buyer at a cost massively higher than the government would have ever paid you, making a total idiot of the farmer who sold the land to the government. If that guy built a house and got a job, the guy who holds out now has prime land which when sold will make him top dog at one shot.

The determination to hold on to the land is to a large extent based on the factory coming online. The government cannot insist they cannot sell the land, if they get to keep it, its their right to sell it to whoever offers them a high price.

In theory, someone can adjacent buy plots of land from a few farmers and have a mall there. A mall, right in the middle of the project area. Super eh?

Now assume they really sold the land to the govt. What about the guy who has land adjacent to the factory and who was never approached? Well, project is on, and he can sell it to a multiplex or mall or 5-star hotel or whatever. He is going to be in far beter condition than anyone who sold the land. So the farmers dont want that. Just by doing nothing, the guy who was like them yesterday now has a crore!

Very smart of everyone.
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Old 13th September 2008, 13:50   #443
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Originally Posted by v1p3r View Post
What self-respect are you guys harping about?

Joslicx, you live in Delhi, na? Come down to South India, like AP, where every year when the crop fails, farmers commit suicide by the thousands, leaving behind orphans to beg on the streets. Visit Kalahandi, where the odd crop failure turns the people into Indian Somalians. Come to Karnataka, where once-poor farmers who had bicycles now drive Scorpios because their land prices have skyrocketed due to industry.

...

You talk of self-respect, and big business threatening the common farmer. I talk of farmers who would WILLINGLY give up their useless land and be employed in a factory at thousands per month, after getting lakhs as compensation. That is what empowers people with self-respect, not the thought of suicide during the next drought.

...
It's easy to bandy words like self-respect and exploitation around when you're sitting behind a safe desk, pounding on a keyboard. The reality is something very different, and I hope and pray that none of us ever have to feel it.
Very well put. I support industrialization and the TATAs et al just because I believe farmers need options - not because they should die out of 'self-respect'.
And I say this being very close to the farming situation in India and being supportive of farmers. Thanks.
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Old 14th September 2008, 12:23   #444
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Originally Posted by v1p3r View Post
What self-respect are you guys harping about?

Joslicx, you live in Delhi, na? Come down to South India, like AP, where every year when the crop fails, farmers commit suicide by the thousands, leaving behind orphans to beg on the streets. Visit Kalahandi, where the odd crop failure turns the people into Indian Somalians. Come to Karnataka, where once-poor farmers who had bicycles now drive Scorpios because their land prices have skyrocketed due to industry.

This is not Delhi, or Punjab, where a single farming family owns thousands of acres of cash crops. This is the unglamorous side of farming, where 3 generations of one family struggle on less than a dollar a day, tilling their stamp-patch of barren land, looking heavenwards praying for rain so that they won't have to kill themselves, or die of hunger.

You talk of self-respect, and big business threatening the common farmer. I talk of farmers who would WILLINGLY give up their useless land and be employed in a factory at thousands per month, after getting lakhs as compensation. That is what empowers people with self-respect, not the thought of suicide during the next drought.

And for all those people who say 'Give India to big business, they will build the roads', I say go right ahead. Give all of India to the Tatas. We will have a Tata-stan, maybe. But it will be like Jamshedpur. Where everything works, and someone is always accountable.

It's easy to bandy words like self-respect and exploitation around when you're sitting behind a safe desk, pounding on a keyboard. The reality is something very different, and I hope and pray that none of us ever have to feel it.

Viper, you are 100% right. These critics of Tata should be taken on a guided tour of Jamshedpur which is an island in the otherwise dilapidated state of Jharkhand. The minute you leave Jamshedpur and hit the govt. maintained roads, the stark reality hits you.
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Old 14th September 2008, 13:56   #445
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Are we still stuck in our age-old syndrome here?

If somebody makes money by legal and ethical means it is his business to take all the **** in that area!

Why don't we appreciate his efforts and enjoy the secondary benefits that evolve out of it. Or are we all going to wait till 1.4 billion people get government posts?

Everybody is crying over farmers. What do farmers get? Indian farmers in the current state does not have a chance in a million to compete against farmers from other countries. Even after slapping high import tax wheat from US is worked out to be cheaper than that produced locally! The whole hoopla in WTO revolves around this basic fact. I work in the Western region. People here have barely half an acre on an average. They still till the lands with bullocks. They still do not have access to proper seed and fertilizer distribution networks. They do not have the scale to use anything modern in their farms. Is it not better if he gets a factory job? Would not he enjoy the stability and security of a job in factory? If somebody really loves the farmers, he/she should attack these problems with long term vision rather than blindly blocking every thing related to farmers.

I am automotive enthusiast who left IT field to pursue my passion. It is extremely frustrating that the single automobile project that could have placed India in the automobile market is stuck in something like this! Mercedes recently acquired land for their new plant and none of these questions were asked! If we think that making an Indica or Scorpio had gained as respectability in International arena, it is a myth. The Tata Nano achieved that. It made the world notice us. And now we ourselves will kill the golden goose.

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Old 14th September 2008, 14:35   #446
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Originally Posted by v1p3r View Post
Joslicx, you live in Delhi, na? Come down to South India, like AP, where every year when the crop fails, farmers commit suicide by the thousands, leaving behind orphans to beg on the streets. Visit Kalahandi, where the odd crop failure turns the people into Indian Somalians. Come to Karnataka, where once-poor farmers who had bicycles now drive Scorpios because their land prices have skyrocketed due to industry.
Sir its quite pathetic you have to resort to personal digs in a debate of this sort!! You dont know anything about me to make this kind of statement. I was born in a village and my granddad was a small poor farmer. My great granddad was a big farmer with lots and lots of land but he was stupid enough to heed Gandhiji's call for independence movement and lost everything! I call him stupid coz now people here want to prefer living in a tataistan while conviniently forgetting their own history (how one single company had once enslaved our country). Anyway my granddad still managed to educate and raise his 6 children (despite having their share of living in a leaky mudhouse and days without food!) and he died a proud farmer and I am also very proud of him!
By the way driving a scorpio or riding a bicycle has nothing to do with self-respect! Lot of politicians drive scorpios and i think they dont have even an iota of self-respect!!!

Quote:
You talk of self-respect, and big business threatening the common farmer. I talk of farmers who would WILLINGLY give up their useless land and be employed in a factory at thousands per month, after getting lakhs as compensation. That is what empowers people with self-respect, not the thought of suicide during the next drought.
Where have I said I am against farmers WILLINGLY selling their lands? Its their property so they have a right to do whatever they want. The objection if they dont want to sell and it is being forcibly taken!!! Nobody should have a right to do that! Thats all my point!

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And for all those people who say 'Give India to big business, they will build the roads', I say go right ahead. Give all of India to the Tatas. We will have a Tata-stan, maybe. But it will be like Jamshedpur. Where everything works, and someone is always accountable.
Dont really want to get into this! Tatas struggles in Singur is not the only incident out there of this nature. ambanis are having problems with farmers in maharastra, tatas in TN, birlas in orrisa, anil ambani in gr. noida (even a few farmers lost their lives in a remonstration few weeks back but nobody would care for them) and lots others. so do want to have ambanistans, birlastans etc etc also to come up?

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It's easy to bandy words like self-respect and exploitation around when you're sitting behind a safe desk, pounding on a keyboard. The reality is something very different, and I hope and pray that none of us ever have to feel it.
As I said, I dont know where you get this from! I was born into a farmer family and although I am myself not a farmer but I respect them a lot. My only point in all this is If a farmer doesnt want to sell his land he should have the right to keep it!!! I dont have a problem if they want to sell!
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Old 14th September 2008, 14:46   #447
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Viper, you are 100% right. These critics of Tata should be taken on a guided tour of Jamshedpur which is an island in the otherwise dilapidated state of Jharkhand. The minute you leave Jamshedpur and hit the govt. maintained roads, the stark reality hits you.
I am sure you waoulf have seen news about villagers manhandling people who were doing survey for a company being established.

Would not have happened if farmers were so much is four of selling their land.

And there are talks about BANNING idea of govt buying land for business houses. IF things go as planned, bill should be on table in next session.

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As I said, I dont know where you get this from! I was born into a farmer family and although I am myself not a farmer but I respect them a lot. My only point in all this is If a farmer doesnt want to sell his land he should have the right to keep it!!! I dont have a problem if they want to sell!
Completely agree. India is a free country and nobody should be able to grab property that belongs to a person. Fact that the person is farmer or city dweller does not make any difference. Only exception could be in case of things can absolutely can not be done anywhere else.

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Old 14th September 2008, 20:46   #448
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This is a picture from "Pratidin" a Bengali daily from Kolkata, which appeared in its edition on 7th Sept 2008. Shows Tata Indigos of W.B. ministers assembled at Raj Bhavan for the meet with the Governor.
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Old 15th September 2008, 00:06   #449
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This is a picture from "Pratidin" a Bengali daily from Kolkata, which appeared in its edition on 7th Sept 2008. Shows Tata Indigos of W.B. ministers assembled at Raj Bhavan for the meet with the Governor.
Attachment 49490
The Indigo looks much better in photos!. Anyways, the Singur issue is back to square one, i believe. MB isn't budging an inch from her original demands. I wonder if there ever will be a solution to this mess.
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Old 15th September 2008, 11:05   #450
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Here's a statement issued by Tata Motors today regarding the Singur Issue

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Official Tata Motors Statement[ 15th Sep 2008 ]Tata Motors appreciates and supports the recent initiatives of the Government of West Bengal for the residents of Singur area where it had acquired land for Tata Motors Nano project. Tata Motors decided to set up its Nano plant at Singur to play an active role in the re-industrialization of the State of West Bengal and make a contribution to the economic development of the region, providing direct and indirect employment opportunities and participating in the overall community development.

Tata Motors hopes that these initiatives will evoke a positive response from the residents of Singur and that all stakeholders will contribute to create a congenial environment conducive to the long-term sustained operations of an industrial enterprise
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