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Old 24th August 2008, 14:45   #106
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Whilst you are remembering the employment and indirect employment provided by industry, you completely forget the employment provided by farming. It just does not happen that farm labourers move easily into industry; what happens is that Industry brings a lot of its workforce with it and the local people are left out.
Hi, nobody is denying the fact that farmers should have a fair compensation and should be taken care of properly so that they have at least as much livelihood as what they currently have, if not better. The real point is that such situations could often become a source of extortion of the industrialist, thanks to petty politicians.

As you would see in today's papers, farmers or whoever the protestors are DO NOT want the Nano project to go away. Rather, they would want to get the best they can. Is it really so difficult to do a proper compensation for the owners of 400 acres of land - be it cash or some other similar land elsewhere?

Please note that TATA is gaining the respect for the very social sensitivity they always exhibited, and not for the lack of it.
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Old 24th August 2008, 16:31   #107
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lawdgawd... that's a very interesting summing up.

I certainly had not appreciated that the government had settled people on the land whilst still acknowledging that it belonged to someone else, thus paying that someone else. Worse than I thought! Politicians taking people for granted indeed.

rippergeo... offtopic, but as my wife and I are currently looking for a house in Alleppey area, thanks for the warning!

Glass... another balanced view. It seems there is every possibility of every one losing, except of course the politicians.

If you are saying that Tata is applying pressure to the politicians, rather than the people, then I can go with that, although I still find it impossible not to be cynical about the core interests of business. Profit is its job, its nature...

I still say that good farmland is the wrong place to build a factory.
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Old 24th August 2008, 17:07   #108
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lawdgawd... that's a very interesting summing up.

I certainly had not appreciated that the government had settled people on the land whilst still acknowledging that it belonged to someone else, thus paying that someone else. Worse than I thought! Politicians taking people for granted indeed.

rippergeo... offtopic, but as my wife and I are currently looking for a house in Alleppey area, thanks for the warning!

Glass... another balanced view. It seems there is every possibility of every one losing, except of course the politicians.

If you are saying that Tata is applying pressure to the politicians, rather than the people, then I can go with that, although I still find it impossible not to be cynical about the core interests of business. Profit is its job, its nature...

I still say that good farmland is the wrong place to build a factory.
Lands and land deals in India are controlled by politicians and their thugs who are squatters. Even in Singur the politicians do not want all the land back. They only want part of the land which would be a neighbour to the factory so that those thugs can off load that land at high prices after Tata's have built the factory and developed the area.

In the early stages of Tata businesses they focussed on employee welfare. But in later decades they modified the charter of major Tata companies to define their objectives of business as 'serving neighbourhoods'. Just one company for instance in Tata Group viz. Tata Steel has adopted 276 villages in the country. They provide medical care and education in theses villages so that the villagers can be gainfully employed. I am a shareholder in some Tata companies and I keenly follow this philanthophic activities of the business group. I do not own shares in Tata Motors though. Now are you telling me that Tata is into land grabbing? You seem to think that business is only for profit. There are numerous such businessmen both across India and the world. But there are many others who belong to a different genre of business class who believe in contributing to the society. For example Warren Buffett, John D. Rockfeller, Tatas belong to this group. You may not like their cars. But I love those cars which are designed for practicality and there are more people like me in this country.

Regarding the fertility of the land is concerned it cannot be called more fertile because it grows rice. Its productivity to the society is more important than mere fertility for a particular crop. I seriously doubt if any of those squatters are interested in growing rice there. Out of millions of hectares of land that we abuse in this country removing forest cover and merely using it to feed a carnivore of the highest order called 'Homo Sapien' we could productively utilise lesser quantity of the same land using better technologies and that is possible on with progress and industrialisation and scientific enquiry. By the way Tatas have funded Indias largest scientific projects and educational institutions. They were first in the world to institute awards for scientific research in blood cancer. And only 20% of that particular awards should go to research belonging to India. The rest 80% is for the rest of the world. Look at the magnanimity of their vision.

Their family biographer mentions in his book 'The Creation of Wealth' thus: "There is a difference between making money for oneself and creating wealth for others. This is the story of a House that has created wealth for a Nation. It is the story of struggle, anxiety, adventure, achievement. An unfinished story..."

I am sure the struggle and anxiety seem to be still going in Singur and it is definitely unfinished.
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Old 24th August 2008, 17:08   #109
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I still say that good farmland is the wrong place to build a factory.
Nobody is denying or neither want the farmland to be given to industrial use. Here the case is something different. IMO, and according to the news I have read, the farmers themselves are not objecting the land transfer. It is done and instigated by the people like MB to get some political mileage as elections are round the corner.

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rippergeo... offtopic, but as my wife and I are currently looking for a house in Alleppey area, thanks for the warning.
Pls check with the local authorities and couple of other people (maybe your would be neighbours) before taking the plunge. I feel this may not be true in all the cases (its my view).
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Old 24th August 2008, 21:08   #110
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All in all the political parties are looking for mileage, which is sad. The farmers should be adequately componsated...WB will loose big time if they create the circumstances as are being created today. The local populace would recieve employment..


I am no expert at politics, but I am talking from common sense.
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Old 24th August 2008, 21:42   #111
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If tatas pull out, WB will loose not only in auto sector, but also in other sectors (IT/BT) wherein just now they are creating an environment for MNCs/Indian Gaints to set up their plants. This will certainly kinda given the impression that the state is not friendly for investments from MNCs and other indian gaints.

Even if WB come out of this, there is an industrial union (CITU) which ruins any prospering company with its dubious policies. We have seen this in past and hope they will do the same again in the plants that are setup in WB.
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Old 25th August 2008, 00:37   #112
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The Communists really messed up, didn't they?.
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Old 25th August 2008, 02:41   #113
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Guys, I'm listening to you --- especially about Tata. Heck... Might even buy a share or two!

But surely the Tata guys must have known the score from the beginning? Or is it that they were misled?

I'm probably going to get the details wrong, but there is an ongoing thing here in TN about mining (Titanium?) and the government is keen on it.

There was a lot of controversy, so the government said, look, we'll send a commission to talk to the local people and report back.

The news came back: local people people love the idea; want the mine, behind the idea all the way.

However... before the government could get it's PR team (sorry, enquiry) team there, a bunch of journalists visited the area: Local people shocked and horrified, no way do they want their villages torn up and destroyed; they are devastated and utterly opposed to the idea.

It hasn't been in the new for a while, which probably means the politicians and the money guys are quietly getting their own way there.

Please excuse my cynicism.
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Old 25th August 2008, 10:10   #114
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@penpavan - looks like you have limited knowledge about Tata's operation in Dharwad(Karnataka), let me explain

Tata's main facilities in Dharwad are

1) Tata Motors Stockyard - mainly commercial vehicles - that's what you see from NH4
2) Telcon - Tata group's off-highway and earthmoving equipment division
-subsidiary of Tata Motors and their turnover is ~ 2000 crores
they have one of the best paint shop facilities in India


3) Telcon Spare Part warehouse/service HQ

Now the land - Tata have around 617(or 670) acres of land in DWD in which 200+ are occupied by Telcon and remaining is more or less unused
and it is very easy for them to acquire more land as there is no one to protest!!! and is not agricultural land
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Old 25th August 2008, 12:53   #115
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Default Tata's Nano plant disruptions

I strongly believe the factors behind Tata's Nano plant disruptions by the Mamtas are:

1)The autorickshaw monopoly industrialists must have hired Mamata to take it up as a farmers' land dispute- political issue.

2)The number of Nanos on road in the near future is directly proportional to less number of auto rickshaws! It is a fear of survival for the Aurorikshaw industrialists to loose such a monopoly market to melt away in a year or two to the revolutionary Tata Nano!

3) Competitors from Car indusry must be encouraging the likes of Mamatas to agitate against Tatas Singur plant functioning and to upset the production commerical launch of Tata Nani.

4) As Maruti 800, Maruti Omni , Hyundai Santro's sales will be hit deeply by the punctual commercial launch of Tata's Nano!

This is india, I still remember how Hindustan motors & Maruti with all political power crushed Standard motors Plant in Chennai in the mid 80's. Standard motors dared colloboration with Rover and brought a better car model Standard 2000 for the people of India.

However Tatas are NO standard motors to get crushed by combined vested interests from competitors and political policy making clout!

At the same time Tatas are not exempted from damaging attacks too!!
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Old 25th August 2008, 14:19   #116
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It was told by a TV channel that TATA at first planned the Nano revolution in another state.. But on request by the West Bengal government TATA re-started the Nano revolution and decided to make their factory at Shingur.

The land that was offered to Mr.Ratan Tata at first was rectangular shaped, and construction was already started. However, some part of the land was gicen back to the Singur people and the land became "W" shaped. Still, because he had already invested a lot, and to keep WB's request, Tata decided to set up the plantation in the "W" shaped land.

There is a reason for Tata readily accepting WBs proposal to make the factory in WB. Remember that Nano is a Rs. 1 - lakh car. To build this car, they need to find a place where transport costs will be low. The car chasis will be built and only the car will be assembled in Singur. Now, Singur is close to the place where they manufacture the engines and all. So in Singur transport cost will be low.

If Tata pulls out no company will be bothered to set-up a business in WB. On the other hand, if the Nano project is successful, Tata might be an icon and more and more companies might set up factories in WB. After all this, some people still say that they are not bothered if Tata pulls out of WB !
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Old 25th August 2008, 16:02   #117
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Originally Posted by Thad E Ginathom View Post
But surely the Tata guys must have known the score from the beginning? Or is it that they were misled?

I'm probably going to get the details wrong, but there is an ongoing thing here in TN about mining (Titanium?) and the government is keen on it.

It hasn't been in the new for a while, which probably means the politicians and the money guys are quietly getting their own way there.

Please excuse my cynicism.
Let us be realistic. Business cannot run without the support of the Government. I recall an earlier instance where Tatas were bidding for the construction of Bangalore airport and also for setting up a domestic airline. Three governments changed at the center and they all managed to push out Tatas away from the Airline/airport business. On 24 th February 2004, India Today magazine questioned Ratan Tata," You couldn't handle the politics?" (Today's Air-India was formerly Tata Airlines and was forcibly nationalised four decades ago.) If this saga continues, India's industrialisation and modernisation has a grim future.

I remember the Titanium case. Ratan Tata flew to Chennai. The TN Govt entered into a memorandum of understanding with him for setting up the project. The moment he flew back, the very next day, they changed their position.

I just wish we had a system where the influence of the Government and politicians is much lesser.

Last edited by sridhga : 25th August 2008 at 16:10.
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Old 25th August 2008, 17:47   #118
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Default The System - as it works

The only surprise is the reaction. This news itself comes as no surprise.

World over Politicians have squabbled to ensure power parity [or control] over capitalists. If capitalists win, politicians lose their power. Even in the fabled USA politicians almost broke the nation apart into two - and came close to doing that a number of times. It took a couple of hundred years for the system to respond to capital and distribute power in a less-corrupt way.

Ofcourse, Capitalists know better. They should. They create the power that politicians wield.

And by god, they sure have. For people who talk about Rockefellar philanthropy without knowing who the person behind it was - I suggest a keen reading of Rockefellar's antics.

Don't get me wrong - what politicians are doing at singur is wrong. But I don't see how a democracy could function otherwise. Its upto the capitalists to ensure their power one-upness. Think Reliance and their numerous dot-on-the-schedule projects. I'm sure they have detractors - like Tatas. I'm sure there were people who didn't see eye to eye with Dhirubhai.

So - again, how did the Ambanis manage to grow in the presence of the Wadias and what have yous?

How did the Mittals of Bharti survive and grow - from scratch ?

Because capitalists - and that's not a negative connotation to people here I hope - are supposed to deal with the environment in they operate. And not act like - pardon my french - sissies.

My cynical and shareholder self of Tata Motors' would blame none other than the Tata - and Tata alone.

150 years in the business - and they couldn't see this coming ? Really ?

Schedule a study lesson from the uber-corrupt Hyundais, Mr Tata. Sorry - the last suggestion was a snide joke.

You hate our corrupt democracy ? What's your solution - A China-like totalitarian regime ?

In China, the party occupies land on its whim. Need a road ? Throw people out. Need a stadia - demolish everything in sight. Let people fend for themselves. People not happy ? Jail them. I suggest a keen viewing of BBC documentaries on youtube to get a grasp on human issues in a totalitarian regime.

India is on the right track hiccups notwithstanding. Please don't blame Mamta for creating ruckus. She's just doing her job. Don't blame the thousand-strong crowd that throngs her rallies. They have their right to express their anguish. They are as much citizens of this country as your are - if there's anything like quantifying the citizenship of this nation.

The system works as advertised, thank you.

Tata should've known better. I would blame them squarely.

Tata's first - and foremost duty is to ensure shareholder's interest. That they erred on this is a mistake - which is going to cost both Tata - and this country dearly.
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Old 25th August 2008, 18:17   #119
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Note sure why our team from Kolkata are not commenting anything on this. Guys, pls help fill in the gaps in this discussions.
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Old 25th August 2008, 18:45   #120
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@agentsmith2 I do agree and i feel you have spoken like a shareholder of the company.

What i feel is that TATAs should ditch the talks with the WB govt and talk to mamta now. No point in talking wit Mr BB who thinks WB is his raj and he can do whta he wishes to. Am not questioning TATAs integrity but i do feel that they took things for granted when the govt promised them land. How can you not talk to the people who loose their land instead of posting nice pictures of yourself with the media.
When the Tatas were launching the Nano in delhi their model was being burnt in singur. Were they sleeping or didnt they subscribe to the newspaper?
I do agree with some comments where when a project comes to a place there are lotsa people who claim to own lands along this.

Sometimes you gotta learn from the some small projects.
Look at the konkan rail proj. From what i heard the people were compensated with Jobs and given jobs according to their qualification.
We support the nano but common you cant expect us to sympathise with you.
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