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View Poll Results: Which MJD powered Vehicle?
Indica Vista Quadrajet 204 36.96%
Palio MJD 135 24.46%
Swift VDi DDiS 197 35.69%
Other ( Fiat 500/splash/chevrolet etc ) 16 2.90%
Voters: 552. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 27th September 2008, 00:50   #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aaggoswami View Post
To the space issue, well, I have myself mentioned space as the positive point of indica vista, but the boot space could have been more for the size fo this car. Boot space must also have substancially increased as compared to G1TI as overall there is increase in wheelbase and cabin space.

But G1TC had strut suspension all round and this was positive point. The move to Torsion beam is more because to cut cost and not because of " Overloading concerns and maintainence concerns ".
Swift never came with independent suspension all round, but Indica did have this. And I dont remember that ever Tata had a huge issue over G1TI's rear strut suspension. Here they are just cutting cost. I expected all round independent suspension.
This is going to be long; so bear with me.
Since, you've raised the issue of independent rear suspension for the second time in this thread - Some clarification is required - the Indica platform was developed with the Indigo planned. To save costs between models a similar multi-link independent suspension was planned. This gives the Indigo a very comfy ride at the back (ask my IBM Thinkpad with motion sensor HDD lock ). The same was packaged with minor mods into the Indica and touted as an industry first. The problem is that it's quite difficult to package a multilink independent rear suspension on a car if suitable overhangs are not available (as in case with most hatches and especially the Indica where the rear wheels have been pushed to the extreme edge)
Most Indica's that regularly ply a full load develop a negative camber because of this - just look at any well used Indicab. Let me also share from personal experience (of owning 3 of these) that because of the suspension packaging challenge on the Indica - the rear is most uncomfortable over bad roads - A Getz/Palio offers a much better ride (partly because of gas filled shocks - but some credit to the well sorted torsion beam setup too).
In summary this has less to do with a torsion beam setup being cheaper and more to do with the overall wheel geometry being maintained.

Coming to the 2nd point of the boot size. AFAIK the proposed small car norms when being formulated were to give excise benefits for a length under 3.8m. This was the reason the vista was planned to be just under this. Subsequently the norms were revised to 4m but by then the design & planning of the Vista could not be changed. Now for a car of the size of Vista, if Tata were to give a boot the size the Getz has, the interior space would have pretty much felt the same as the old Indica (which isn't bad at all but perceptions do matter).
It's an ill kept secret that the Palio was the original benchmark given to the italian design firm for the indica. In fact AFAIK Fiat had conveyed its displeasure to this firm for the 'inspired' design. However, Tata chose to stretch the wheelbase slightly and move the wheels to the extremes to maximise interior space and in the process if you compare today the rear seat space and the boot space between a Palio and an Indica - you know how the space got divided. (It's altogether another story how different the two cars feel when driven)

Thanks for being patient through this long one - just had to get it out of the system.

Last edited by viper_711 : 27th September 2008 at 00:54.
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Old 27th September 2008, 12:50   #62
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1)
Regarding the suspension. If Tata is to make Indigo now on the same platform of Indica Vista, then does this mean new Indigo will also have a non-independent suspension ? If yes, its not good.

Whatever reason is cited for this non-independent setup, the main reason was cost cutting. If they were so keen to avoid the camber trouble along with not eating into space, then the ideal solution would be trailing arm setup that would be better than present setup.

2)
Thanks, for updating me on boot space. But in the design stage itself packing could be more efficient, I suppose.

3)
I think we had enough discussion on these issues, if we want, we can take it PM or in technical section.
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Old 28th September 2008, 14:59   #63
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Did everyone see the latest AUTOCAR Show on CNBC? They had a shoot-out between the VISTA, PALIO and SWIFT. It was very comprehensive and very well done. Might find it on you-tube too.

The SWIFT won. Very very surprised that the VISTA is winning on Tbhp.
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Old 28th September 2008, 15:10   #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheARUN View Post
The SWIFT won. Very very surprised that the VISTA is winning on Tbhp.
Vista won on What Car shootout too.

All three cars have different strengths and weaknesses. So, it really depends on your priorities.
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Old 28th September 2008, 15:22   #65
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i vote Vista
Palio - Too dated inside
Swift - i dont even fit in properly. While ingress the steering wheel is a big obstruction
Vista - Wow for ladies at the backseat. great space, FIAT's remapped engine.
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Old 28th September 2008, 16:41   #66
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The Vista is spacious and looks quite nice on the road. All TATA need to do is introduce a sports version now, to generate interest among younger buyers.
Attached Thumbnails
Indica Vista MJD vs Palio MJD vs Swift DDiS-bangalore-084-large.jpg  

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Old 28th September 2008, 18:42   #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aaggoswami View Post
1)
Regarding the suspension. If Tata is to make Indigo now on the same platform of Indica Vista, then does this mean new Indigo will also have a non-independent suspension ? If yes, its not good.
While other have tried to explain but in vain, I will try and for the last time. What makes you think an independent suspension in a car is the end all of everything. Do you know what suspension set up the mid size cars ride on?

Quote:
Originally Posted by aaggoswami View Post
Whatever reason is cited for this non-independent setup, the main reason was cost cutting. If they were so keen to avoid the camber trouble along with not eating into space, then the ideal solution would be trailing arm setup that would be better than present setup.
Vista absolutely screws the Swift when it comes to ride and handling balance. In India ride is more important than handling as long as you dont run into a pole every time you make a quick turn.

Quote:
Originally Posted by aaggoswami View Post
2)
Thanks, for updating me on boot space. But in the design stage itself packing could be more efficient, I suppose.
Same goes for the Swift isnt?.... All the length and breadth have gone into making buldges and curves it seems.
Swift is considered a very good car here in Europe but the build quality b/w the Indian Swift and the European Swift is a no contest. Besides another very important point is the purpose the car is used for. Swift isnt a family car in Europe but in India it is and so is Vista and it a no contest, the Vista trumps the Swift as far as practicality is concerned.
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Old 28th September 2008, 18:56   #68
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Someone please answer this. If the VISTA is so good, then how come the SWIFT has a waiting period? and the VISTA is available almost off the shelf!
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Old 28th September 2008, 18:59   #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheARUN View Post
Someone please answer this. If the VISTA is so good, then how come the SWIFT has a waiting period? and the VISTA is available almost off the shelf!
Simply because Swift D has Demand - Supply problem and Vista doesn't.
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Old 28th September 2008, 18:59   #70
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the swift's waiting period is partially due to
1. the already existing que
2. People might be wary to try a new product- the swift didnt have instant queues for itself the moment it was launched
3. maruti seems to have problems scaling up production of the diesel engine.

The getz CRDI has an even bigger waiting list. Of course its a better car, but the waiting list by itself doesn't prove anything
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Old 28th September 2008, 19:29   #71
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The VISTA is a taxi car. What image will one have driving a VISTA? The SWIFT on the other hand is an out and out personal car.

The SWIFT is sold even in Europe, one of the most stringent car markets, the VISTA has still not got permission even to go there.

Overall, I can't believe the VISTA is winning at T-bhp. I saw it in person, its not such a big deal.

The rear seat is better than the SWIFT, thats all

Sirish Chandran said today on television, the VISTA rolls a lot, the SWIFT is the drivers car.

Finally I think I got the answer, heart says SWIFT, head says VISTA
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Old 28th September 2008, 19:35   #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheARUN View Post
The VISTA is a taxi car.
Eh, I haven't seen a single vista running as a taxi. I doubt if the taxiwallahs will be early adopters. By what logic do you pronounce the vista a taxi?
Quote:
The SWIFT is sold even in Europe, one of the most stringent car markets, the VISTA has still not got permission even to go there.
Tata is working on the export version, which I'm sure will be sold there. If the current indica could be sold there , I am pretty confident this one can, as well.
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Old 28th September 2008, 20:10   #73
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but the price of vista on-road is lesser compared to the swift d , so that makes people go for QJD, instead of waiting 5 months for swift d .
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Old 28th September 2008, 21:45   #74
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This INDICA VISTA does not look too different from the earlier one, and the normal INDICA, in its INDICAB avataar is a taxi, so people are bound to mistake it for one. Imagine getting flagged down by people on the roadside and stuff like that
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Old 28th September 2008, 22:12   #75
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Greenhorn - Getz CRDi is available with MAX ten days waiting in Delhi.

@Et bhaiya: Let's accept and get over the fact that the target segment for the Vista does NOT presently trust the Tata too much. I don't.

@Arun: ALL MAG outputs are crap - speak to the journos for what they WANTED to say not what the editor/publisher's commercial aspirations found okay.

@Chetan: Why does Honda Accord outsell the much cheaper Sonata embera CRDi (half its running cost) by a factor of 10+? Let me not even compare it to the Civic (whose top end is closer to the Embera in price but not in specs) - though ofc I'm not qualified as an owner - but aspirations/beliefs determine result more than just pure VFM.

And Tata will SURELY change it - but its NOT happening overnight. So chill maadi.

This vote here is just sand castles among friends. Market result should be visible at end of September.
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