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Old 5th September 2008, 15:31   #76
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Originally Posted by joslicx View Post
No not a crime but u pay for luxury!!
We already pay more income tax (30%) if we earn more. And it makes sense. You cannot tax poor poeple otherwise they would not be able to afford anything in life let alone any luxuries.
But there has to be a reasonable limit to all this. you cannot have policies which encourage corruption, esp in a country like this where even the basic right to life cannot be enforced
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Old 5th September 2008, 15:40   #77
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Originally Posted by joslicx View Post
A fuel like petrol that is primarily used by two wheeler owners (so the poorer than car-owner section of the population) is much more expensive than diesel thats used by cars or societies for power backup (so the rich users in effect).
You're kidding, right?
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Old 5th September 2008, 15:47   #78
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Basic argument that there loses for govt is wrong.

Govt and Oil refineries are making more and more from booming crude Oil prices

Oil marketing companies owned by Govt are losing.

What does it mean.

One arm of Govt is making profit from OIl and the other arm is losing from Oil = net is profit for Govt.

Tax rates on Crude and refined Oil are kept at almost the same rates ( except for small reduction done recently)

Here's an example

When crude is $50 per barrel Govt got say @ 30% tax $ 15 revenue

When crude is @ $135 per barrel Govt gets say@30% tax $ 40.5 revenue

This hypothetical but fact. actual tax rates on Oil are more than 100% (most of it is TAX on TAX)

When everything was brought under VAT petroleum products were excluded because GOI and State Govt's will loose revenue

Govt is asking Oil companies to pay tax same old rates and sell petrol/diesel at same old rates. So oil companies loose

But my question who owns these oil marketing companies ---- GOI

Recently there was a debate about taxing the windfall profits made refineries. that show even refineries are making huge profits from increasing crude prices. But GOI is reluctant introduce windfall tax like other countries on oil refineries
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Old 5th September 2008, 16:11   #79
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Originally Posted by mjothi View Post
With so MANY taxes, finally it will become like Singapore where you can only dream cars
Hey in fact cars in Singapore a lot cheaper than a few years ago...The ridiculous COE [Road tax] has decreased a lot!!!

Anyway YES the price of Diesel should increase. If it's not more expensive than petrol, at least equalise the price!

Diesel is also more polluting, so while the milage and cost of running calculations come into play, the government should think about the situation on the whole!

The best solution though is to stop taxing fuel!!!
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Old 5th September 2008, 16:12   #80
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Originally Posted by suman View Post
You're kidding, right?
Hows it kidding? Arent all two wheelers run on petrol?
And people have two wheelers coz they cant afford cars (well most of them). Whats the fun part in this?
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Old 5th September 2008, 16:15   #81
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Originally Posted by joslicx View Post
Hows it kidding? Arent all two wheelers run on petrol?
And people have two wheelers coz they cant afford cars (well most of them). Whats the fun part in this?
The fun part is that you're saying that Petrol is primarily used by two wheelers & cars use Diesel - maybe you should check what percentage of Petrol usage is for two wheelers?

Or maybe you were trying to say something else........
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Old 5th September 2008, 16:18   #82
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Originally Posted by DocG View Post
Diesel is also more polluting, so while the milage and cost of running calculations come into play, the government should think about the situation on the whole!
Where did you get this?
In Europe with carbon tax coming into play from next year, diesel cars will pay less tax because they emit more CO2.
The world is moving towards diesel because you can travel more, consuming less fuel and producing less CO2
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Old 5th September 2008, 16:27   #83
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Originally Posted by rkg View Post
Basic argument that there loses for govt is wrong.

Govt and Oil refineries are making more and more from booming crude Oil prices

Oil marketing companies owned by Govt are losing.

What does it mean.

One arm of Govt is making profit from OIl and the other arm is losing from Oil = net is profit for Govt.

Tax rates on Crude and refined Oil are kept at almost the same rates ( except for small reduction done recently)

Here's an example

When crude is $50 per barrel Govt got say @ 30% tax $ 15 revenue

When crude is @ $135 per barrel Govt gets say@30% tax $ 40.5 revenue

This hypothetical but fact. actual tax rates on Oil are more than 100% (most of it is TAX on TAX)

When everything was brought under VAT petroleum products were excluded because GOI and State Govt's will loose revenue

Govt is asking Oil companies to pay tax same old rates and sell petrol/diesel at same old rates. So oil companies loose

But my question who owns these oil marketing companies ---- GOI

Recently there was a debate about taxing the windfall profits made refineries. that show even refineries are making huge profits from increasing crude prices. But GOI is reluctant introduce windfall tax like other countries on oil refineries
Well it is essentially a non-argument as taxes are government income but then money from this income is what is utilised for nation building. Its not like they are pocketing all the money they are getting from duties on fuel. FM can very easily reduce duty but that would mean less income for the govt which would directly mean less public expenditure so probably less hospitals/roads/industries or less pay for employees (or it might be like situation in Bihar where govt employees didnt get paid for years and there are no roads or no doctors etc!!!). Net net it is loss for aam junta only one way or the other!
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Old 5th September 2008, 16:30   #84
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Originally Posted by tsk1979 View Post
Where did you get this?
In Europe with carbon tax coming into play from next year, diesel cars will pay less tax because they emit more CO2.
The world is moving towards diesel because you can travel more, consuming less fuel and producing less CO2
You said it right, the only reason diesels get blamed for pollution is SPM(suspended particulate matter-black soot) which is visible. On the contrary diesels emit less CO2 & Nox than petrol, which are more harmfull. Inherently the diesles have high volumetric & thermal efficiency than petrol. They are more torquey & consumes less fuel.

A modern diesel equipped with particulate filter is less polluting than petrol engine.
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Old 5th September 2008, 16:33   #85
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Originally Posted by suman View Post
The fun part is that you're saying that Petrol is primarily used by two wheelers & cars use Diesel - maybe you should check what percentage of Petrol usage is for two wheelers?

Or maybe you were trying to say something else........
Well all two wheelers use petrol. I dont know if two wheelers also use some other fuel ?

As for cars, most luxury cars nowdays use diesel. Save Honda all others have diesel cars and diesels are outselling their petrol cousins for every single car model out there. You can correct me if I am wrong here.

And nobody here is talking about petrol cars as they already are already using petrol.
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Old 5th September 2008, 16:43   #86
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Originally Posted by joslicx View Post
Well all two wheelers use petrol. I dont know if two wheelers also use some other fuel ?
Actually, I think I need to brush up on my knowledge of English; to me, the below comment
Quote:
A fuel like petrol that is primarily used by two wheeler owners
would mean that the item is primarily used (as in the larger percentage of users) by two wheelers, which is not the case.

I think you meant that two wheelers only run on petrol unlike cars which have some diesel options. Hence, bring down petrol prices & burden the hell out of the diesel users. Simply brilliant
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Old 5th September 2008, 16:51   #87
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Originally Posted by suman View Post
Actually, I think I need to brush up on my knowledge of English; to me, the below comment

would mean that the item is primarily used (as in the larger percentage of users) by two wheelers, which is not the case.

I think you meant that two wheelers only run on petrol unlike cars which have some diesel options. Hence, bring down petrol prices & burden the hell out of the diesel users. Simply brilliant
Well I think I am right on that as it is indeed primarily used by 2-wheelers in the sense that in volume terms there are much much more 2-wheelers in India than cars. I'd assume there would be at least 5-10 two-wheelers for every car or probably even more. I dont know the exact figures...

Anyway I didnt say anywhere bring down petrol prices or anything like that... where did u get that? I am only for no diesel subsidies for cars!!! It simply doesnt make sense to see car owners who are rich enough (rich enf to afford the likes of Mercs and Skodas) simply enjoying cheaper fuel at the expense of govt (which means at the expense of tax payers like me and you as govt makes all its money from us only)
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Old 5th September 2008, 16:52   #88
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Originally Posted by reignofchaos View Post
You have it all wrong here. Indian prices of petrol atleast are higher than the world standard. While the refineries are making losses at roughly 3 rupees or so per liter of petrol sold, the government(both the state and the central) is pocketing a significant amount as taxes on every liter of petrol sold. This is not true for diesel which definitely is being sold for huge losses with hardly any taxes.
Let me share some info with you here - not my own, but extracts from the B K Chaturvedi High Powered Committee on Financial Position of Oil Companies.

Between 4/04 and 6/08, crude oil prices have risen 360%
During the same period, average price rise of Petrolem Products worldwide is 260%

Between 2002 and 2004, Indian retail selling prices:
Petrol rose by 27%
Diesel rose by 31%

Beween 1/04 and 6/08, Indian retail selling prices:
Petrol rose 50% (but 60% in Dollar terms)
Diesel rose by 60% (bu 71% in Dollar terms)

"Historically, the pricing mechanism used to have a built-in cross subsidy burden on motor spirit (petrol) which was used to keep the price of HSD lower. Apparently, this was later substituted by having a much higher excise duty on motor spirit. This price differential has had the unintended consequence of creating a price incentive for motorists to opt for diesel rather than for gasoline cars."

Diesel constitues 82% of auomobile fuel consumption in India.

"A sizeable part of the diesel consumption is used for captive power generation in industrial, commercial and residential establishments."

"HSD provides more mileage per litre."

"Auto diesel retails a a price that is not much lower than gasoline in most of the developed world.

5/08 prices (Delhi), excluding taxes:
Petrol, Rs 28.43/ltr, 50.56 retail with tax (France 38.45)
Diesel Rs 27.03/ltr, 34.80 retail with tax (France 46.99)

In India, price differential between Petrol and Diesel is maintained at 45%

The gap for HSD is very large. To fully reflect internationally prevailing pricing conditions, the price of HSD before State taxes, duties and cesses have to be increased from the current level of Rs 30.90 to Rs 49.00 per litre, an increase of 59%. In the case of Petrol, increase has to be from Rs 42 to Rs 53, increase of 27%.

Oil companies have passed on full effect of crude oil prices to industrial consumers.

Cash losses for Oil companies is Rs 45,209 crores in 2007-08, and Under-recoveries Rs 77,123 crores.

"There is no domesic market-determined pricing"

"The sooner that domestic pricing can move out of the portals of government decision-making and is replaced by a compeitive domestic market, the better it will be, both for the consumer amd for its efficient operation of the industry."

"Higher selling prices would have kept...fuel consumpion...within levels that were lower.....by placing higher incentives on fuel efficiency"

"High level of world prices.....are not being passed on to the domestic consumer....and instead, domestic consumers are being subsidised....from government revenues and expansion of government debt, both of which have significant and critical alternative use - whether it is in the creation of social or of physical infrastructure."
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Old 5th September 2008, 16:58   #89
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Originally Posted by joslicx View Post
It simply doesnt make sense to see car owners who are rich enough (rich enf to afford the likes of Mercs and Skodas) simply enjoying cheaper fuel at the expense of govt (which means at the expense of tax payers like me and you as govt makes all its money from us only)
Its actually the Govt who is having the last laugh here - it is not at the Govt's expense but at the taxpayers.

By the way, I bought a Diesel because my fuel bills were going through the roof with two Petrol vehicles. Period.

Why are you harping on Mercs & Skodas alone? As you mentioned some posts ago, almost ALL manufacturers have diesel options, including the non-luxury segment.

What is your actual grouse -
  • Affordability of cars
  • Affordability of Diesel cars
  • The fact that two wheelers don't have a diesel option?
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Old 5th September 2008, 17:24   #90
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Originally Posted by suman View Post
Its actually the Govt who is having the last laugh here - it is not at the Govt's expense but at the taxpayers.

By the way, I bought a Diesel because my fuel bills were going through the roof with two Petrol vehicles. Period.

Why are you harping on Mercs & Skodas alone? As you mentioned some posts ago, almost ALL manufacturers have diesel options, including the non-luxury segment.

What is your actual grouse -
  • Affordability of cars
  • Affordability of Diesel cars
  • The fact that two wheelers don't have a diesel option?
I'd like to know what you mean by government??? Is it like somebody is personally pocketing all the taxes we are paying?

And mercs and skodas were just examples. Of course almost all car manufacturers have diesels now. I dont have any grudges against affordability of cars or diesel cars. I am only questioning here one thing and that is subsidised prices of diesels enjoyed by car owners like you. There is no justification for that at all! the price of diesel is artificially kept low in india (it is not like that in most places) coz it is a fuel "primiraliy" used in commercial transportation (by trucks and locomotives). And that was done to keep prices of commodities low and this is something that benefits everyone. Now you tell me how does it benifit everyone in case of subsidised diesel for cars ??? it just benefits buyer of that car only!

"If you want to own a car you should be prepared to pay up to run it! If you cant dont buy a car/scooter/bike/whatever... use public transport or bicycyle." This is what the govt should tell all consumers of oil! Its not like govt is sitting on a kuber ka khazana (endless pot of money) and they can keep absorbing losses forever.
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