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Old 19th March 2005, 23:37   #31
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Gentlemen

Since this thread was started on my suggestion to Type O, I should post a reply even if my weekend's through since yours has just begun.

For one, the thread should read 'Are Fiat cars Overhyped', in place of over-rated.

For another, a lot of people talk about the car without having owned these cars or having evaluated them, Type O Negative included. This is my point exactly - its easy to get carried away by what you read in the magazines, because they keep talking about 'performance' as though the car is a hot rod. It is not - I agree with Rudra here.

Finally, there is this tendency amongst many to rubbbish other cars when they decide that what they own/like is the best. Amongst the replies that I read, Lambo's were the most biased - he has mentioned that the Indigo loses out on Ride, Performance, FE, Bootspace amongst others. My experience with the Indigo (D) has been quite the opposite - the only major negative v/s the Petra (D) was the vague gearshift. For the difference in price and post-purchase peace of mind, I'll live with the slightly vague gearshift since it doesnt wrong-shift.

If other cars seem to be doing better, try to find out WHY they're doing better instead of rubbishing them.

I also heard someone mention that the troubles with Fiat internationally has nothing to do with the cars and I beg to differ. Getting a trouble-free Fiat is like picking a lottery, and thats pretty much across the board, Alfas & Lancias included. I cant speak about Maseratis and Ferraris since they're beyond my current reach.

Just to get to the bottom of this performance debate, I am willing to go on a long drive with anyone in a Petra. If its a petrol, I'll bring my Accent. If its a diesel, I'll borrow my cousin's Indigo. If the other person can get to the destination before me by any significant margin (to be decided), I will accept the 'performance' arguement, sell my car and put a deposit down for a Petra in front of you. Thats a promise, as long as the opposition is not a licensed rally driver. You can pick Bangalore or Cochin as the start point - time to be decided.

Lest you think I am overoptimistic - I'm pretty confident that if I can put my 'underpowered' Accent GLS ahead of a 2 litre CRV by about 15 minutes in a drive from Coimbatore to Cochin, any Petra should be a 'piece o cake'. For the right driver, a couple of seconds off 0-60 times on paper doesnt count.

To conclude, if this forum is to grow in stature as a reliable source of information on the web, we should try to be more objective and try not to get carried away by emotions or perceptions. That was the point of the whole arguement. Enthusiasm is great, but it has to be tempered by reality and experience.

Now let me get back to work while this debate heats up a bit. Catch up in a day or two.


Cheers

Steer
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Old 20th March 2005, 00:55   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steeroid
Gentlemen

Since this thread was started on my suggestion to Type O, I should post a reply even if my weekend's through since yours has just begun.

For one, the thread should read 'Are Fiat cars Overhyped', in place of over-rated.

For another, a lot of people talk about the car without having owned these cars or having evaluated them, Type O Negative included. This is my point exactly - its easy to get carried away by what you read in the magazines, because they keep talking about 'performance' as though the car is a hot rod. It is not - I agree with Rudra here.

Finally, there is this tendency amongst many to rubbbish other cars when they decide that what they own/like is the best. Amongst the replies that I read, Lambo's were the most biased - he has mentioned that the Indigo loses out on Ride, Performance, FE, Bootspace amongst others. My experience with the Indigo (D) has been quite the opposite - the only major negative v/s the Petra (D) was the vague gearshift. For the difference in price and post-purchase peace of mind, I'll live with the slightly vague gearshift since it doesnt wrong-shift.

If other cars seem to be doing better, try to find out WHY they're doing better instead of rubbishing them.

I also heard someone mention that the troubles with Fiat internationally has nothing to do with the cars and I beg to differ. Getting a trouble-free Fiat is like picking a lottery, and thats pretty much across the board, Alfas & Lancias included. I cant speak about Maseratis and Ferraris since they're beyond my current reach.

Just to get to the bottom of this performance debate, I am willing to go on a long drive with anyone in a Petra. If its a petrol, I'll bring my Accent. If its a diesel, I'll borrow my cousin's Indigo. If the other person can get to the destination before me by any significant margin (to be decided), I will accept the 'performance' arguement, sell my car and put a deposit down for a Petra in front of you. Thats a promise, as long as the opposition is not a licensed rally driver. You can pick Bangalore or Cochin as the start point - time to be decided.

Lest you think I am overoptimistic - I'm pretty confident that if I can put my 'underpowered' Accent GLS ahead of a 2 litre CRV by about 15 minutes in a drive from Coimbatore to Cochin, any Petra should be a 'piece o cake'. For the right driver, a couple of seconds off 0-60 times on paper doesnt count.

To conclude, if this forum is to grow in stature as a reliable source of information on the web, we should try to be more objective and try not to get carried away by emotions or perceptions. That was the point of the whole arguement. Enthusiasm is great, but it has to be tempered by reality and experience.

Now let me get back to work while this debate heats up a bit. Catch up in a day or two.


Cheers

Steer


are u not going too far.what u have written is the most biased answer of all.reaching from point a to b faster does not mean a car has higher performance.performance in general for a auto enthuiast is the way the car makes u feel when u put the throtle to the floor.or the way it handles or gives u the exitement.only fast is not performance dude.no one drives a indigo or petra at 150kmph in daily routine.u got ahead of the crv because the crv driver let u do that.understand.

what is overated?In terms of Fiat it is like peole say it is well built,high performance,solid handling etc,but why does it not sell.so is it overated?
if it had these values it would have sold..

if u see in real life Fiat cars are european cars so they are better built than korean or japanese cars.the feel solid.even a corolla feels like tin can in front of an Octavia.Zen,santro fell the same in front of the palio.

Europens give more importance to refinement and power than economy.hence the palio failed(here).

for people who buy cars with their heads.i think u should not call urself auto enthusiat.if u were one u whould have bought a car that makes u feel happy when u drive and not one which gives u the best economy or resale value,spares cost etc.


The Santro,Zen,Indigo are good for peole like a-b fast.not people who like to drive cars from a-c-d-e-b.All hyundai,Maruti,Tata cars are good for such peole.hene they sell.many indians are like a-b.So they dont sell in europe where Quality is given preferance over economy.


For all VW Golfers.Fiat palio is never compared to VW Golf.For that we have stilo.VW cars are better than fiat cars in general hence they sell more.but both are better than Tata and Koreans which sell way less.Golf is BMW 1-seies teritory and will cost u 10Lacs+ in India.even a polo will be 5-7Lacs. only a lupo will come close to price of palio.

So to sum it up Fiat cars are Under-rated(cursed) by A-B kind of peole and Over-rated(praised) or correctly rated(it is much precise) by A-C-D-E-B style of people.but some exceptions exist on this forum also.

Moderator's note: When replying back don't use the full post as quote. Take the relevant lines and reply.

Last edited by Rudra Sen : 20th March 2005 at 07:54.
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Old 20th March 2005, 01:49   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by merve_extreme
are u not going too far. reaching from point a to b faster does not mean a car has higher performance.
Then whats the point?

Quote:
Originally Posted by merve_extreme
u got ahead of the crv because the crv driver let u do that.understand.
Two of us did the driving - one was me and the other wasnt you, son !

Quote:
Originally Posted by merve_extreme
if u see in real life Fiat cars are european cars so they are better built than korean or japanese cars.
No I dont see. What you say is true for German and French automobiles, but NOT for the Italians. Buying a Fiat is like buying a lottery, trust me on that one - I bought an Alfa 156 despite warnings from well meaning friends, and dumped it after 3 months.

Quote:
Originally Posted by merve_extreme
So to sum it up Fiat cars are Under-rated(cursed) by A-B kind of peole and Over-rated(praised) or correctly rated(it is much precise) by A-C-D-E-B style of people.but some exceptions exist on this forum also.
You need to get some sleep. Goodnight!
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Old 20th March 2005, 02:27   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steeroid
You need to get some sleep. Goodnight!
On afterthought - that was patronising and condescending, bordering on the rude.

Just realised that I held the same views at your age, when the fastest vehicles on IAJ and C&BI were all that mattered. However, a few years, a few cars and a few hundred thousand kms down the line I tend to look at vehicles in more ways than one.

I also tend to analyse whats happening in the industry, which may not be a priority to you at this point in time.

Cheers and no offence meant

Steer
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Old 20th March 2005, 02:34   #35
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I agree with merve that performance does not mean getting from A to B faster....especially not the kind of A to B you are talking about. Your opinions,based on experiencing one Alfa and critiszing the whole Italian auto industry, are very biased too. You also critisized the forum for being biased. Well, a forum like this is meant to be subjective. We're not here to provide the figures such as FE, 0-100 etc.! People who have posted in this thread, such as Amit and Stratos, do have first hand experience of owning the cars mentioned. To me, this thread seems pointless since you are more interested in judging the credibility of team-bhpians.
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Old 20th March 2005, 02:35   #36
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Originally Posted by LLL
Fully agree.

If Fiat is such a great company with great products, why is it doing badly all over the world?

Its just that other better products have not arrived in indian markets...
the other products ur talking about would be the fiat panda &the punto which are great cars for the european markets but not what the indian customer wants-
both these cars would cost 4.5 lakh+,if and when they are brought to india,heavy kerb weight & engine designed more for driveability than FE which would automatically take it off the firing range of potential hatchback customers.
there is not doupting the fact fiat makes good solid cars,which i think is a little too good for indian market.build quality,finish & performance would be the last thing on the mind of a 3-4lakh car buyer - which is where the fiat cars tops.
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Old 20th March 2005, 02:38   #37
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Quote:
Just to get to the bottom of this performance debate, I am willing to go on a long drive with anyone in a Petra. If its a petrol, I'll bring my Accent. If its a diesel, I'll borrow my cousin's Indigo. If the other person can get to the destination before me by any significant margin (to be decided), I will accept the 'performance' arguement, sell my car and put a deposit down for a Petra in front of you. Thats a promise, as long as the opposition is not a licensed rally driver. You can pick Bangalore or Cochin as the start point - time to be decided.
Firstly, don't try anything of that sort. If you wanna prove that your Accent can beat a Petra, invite them to a race track. There are good enuf tracks in Chennai and in Coimbatore and, we'll be more than glad to come and witness this. Hehe

Quote:
Lest you think I am overoptimistic - I'm pretty confident that if I can put my 'underpowered' Accent GLS ahead of a 2 litre CRV by about 15 minutes in a drive from Coimbatore to Cochin, any Petra should be a 'piece o cake'. For the right driver, a couple of seconds off 0-60 times on paper doesnt count.
I've been overtaken by Santros and Wagon Rs doing 130kmph but, i always stick to my 120kmph limit on the Vtec during long distance drives, come what may. I have a Wagon R too and i know where it stands when compared to the Vtec so, there's nothing to prove.

Shan2nu

Last edited by Shan2nu : 20th March 2005 at 02:40.
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Old 20th March 2005, 02:48   #38
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Please ur age does not mean u know more.i maybe smaller that u age wise but not when it comes to Knowlege regarding cars.u can call is boasting if u like.if u cannot understand some basics like A-B, etc then what can i say.

i see u defeated a crv?.if i was in that crv u would have been a distant spec on the horizon.just because u got ahead of him dont feel he way trying all that hard.u get an accent i'll get a petra.i'll reach atleast 5 mins before u.

BuilD Quality.hear the door shutting in a Palio and a Accent and then tell me.the thud says it all.what u said in broad term means Skoda cars are crap,Volvo is rubbish,Land rovers and Rolls Royce are disgusting.Ferrari,Lamborgini,etc are lolly pops.have u ever in ur life driven a Fiat.People like JC(jermy clarkson) love the Alfa's and Fiats.i think he is european with lot of knowlegde.

any western european car is better built than any korean vehicle if not a Japnese vehicle.
Hyundai Accent is the wosrt vehicle of the year acc to TOPGEAR.

p.s:

A-B:People for whom car is a mode of travelling from one point to another.

A-C-D-E-B:this is common sense.it is for people who love their cars any buy them by listening to their heart(not head) and hence like to take the longer route from one point to another.

Last edited by merve_extreme : 20th March 2005 at 02:55.
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Old 20th March 2005, 02:53   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shan2nu
Firstly, don't try anything of that sort. If you wanna prove that your Accent can beat a Petra, invite them to a race track. Hehe
Hi Shan. Exactly my point - do we drive on race tracks in real life? Performance has to be realistic, given traffic, road condition and terrain. What I meant is that in real life, those 2 secs dont matter.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Shan2nu
I've been overtaken by Santros and Wagon Rs doing 130kmph but, i always stick to my 120kmph limit on the Vtec during long distance drives, come what may. I have a Wagon R too and i know where it stands when compared to the Vtec so, there's nothing to prove.

Shan2nu
I try to drive within 80% of my vehicles capability. If you know the route between CBE and COK, you'll know that speeds of 120+ are possible only on very few stretches of the route. At the end of the day, the available power in the Accent was adequate to get the better of the other car in those conditions, and that is my point.

Here in Dubai, I wouldnt even think of such an experiment because the roads are as good as racetracks and you only need to place a brick on the accelerator and turn on the radio. In such a situation, a fat american 5.7 litre V8 Caprice (TAXI!!!) would beat the daylights out of any Euro, Jap, Korean or other car. I still wouldnt buy one!

Cheers

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Old 20th March 2005, 03:03   #40
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Originally Posted by Steeroid
In such a situation, a fat american 5.7 litre V8 Caprice (TAXI!!!) would beat the daylights out of any Euro, Jap, Korean or other car. I still wouldnt buy one!
Gentlemen Start your Engines(in the M3's,M5's,E55's,S6's.......)

even the 530i,E350,Golf GTI will be enough i feel)
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Old 20th March 2005, 03:04   #41
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Originally Posted by Steeroid

I try to drive within 80% of my vehicles capability. If you know the route between CBE and COK, you'll know that speeds of 120+ are possible only on very few stretches of the route. At the end of the day, the available power in the Accent was adequate to get the better of the other car in those conditions, and that is my point.

You think it was the power that got you A to B faster in those conditions?? You really think that the CRV is an SUV and is physically bigger had nothing to with it? On re-reading you earlier post, i'd suggest that you get rid of the mentality that because you are older you are more credible.

PS: this thread has the quickest replies i've ever seen here.
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Old 20th March 2005, 03:06   #42
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Gentlemen Start your Engines(in the M3's,M5's,E55's,S6's.......)

even the 530i,E350,Golf GTI will be enough i feel)

Don't forget the likes of EVO 8 (2L engine), skyline and Supra!

Last edited by Deeps : 20th March 2005 at 03:10.
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Old 20th March 2005, 03:10   #43
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Gentlemen

The original topic was "Are Fiat Cars Over-rated"

Lets try and get back to it, lest we get into another debate about Cubic Capacity.

Come to think of it, that would be another good thread to start off...

Good Night all of you

Steer
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Old 20th March 2005, 03:12   #44
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Originally Posted by Deeps
PS: this thread has the quickest replies i've ever seen here.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steeriod
Now let me get back to work while this debate heats up a bit. Catch up in a day or two.
The temperature is rising.Rising very fast.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Deeps
Don't forget the likes of EVO 8, skyline and Supra!.
Sorry.i forgot to mention the Japanese cars.apni Impreza bhi hai.

Last edited by merve_extreme : 20th March 2005 at 03:13.
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Old 20th March 2005, 03:15   #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steeroid
Gentlemen

The original topic was "Are Fiat Cars Over-rated"

Lets try and get back to it, lest we get into another debate about Cubic Capacity.

Come to think of it, that would be another good thread to start off...

Good Night all of you

Steer
same to u.we'll continue this tomorrow(with Fiat at the centre)
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