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Old 7th October 2008, 19:33   #31
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Originally Posted by GTO View Post


Don't get Mr. Tata into this. We respect him just as anyone else. I don't see the harsh side to point out a fact. And the fact is, the Vista needed a fresh identity for the improved car that it so obviously is.
I think you misunderstood my post, I was responding to SuperSyn's post. I think its harsh to ask him to step down because of Vista, criticizing him is not what I was terming harsh.
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Old 7th October 2008, 19:35   #32
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IMO, the front look is spoiled by the rising line of the front grill, which makes it look like a gaping mouth! They should have tried a better design.
The side profile is ok, but the rear needs getting used to!

Calling all the photoshoppers on T-BHP to try their hand at improving the design.

For those who are blaming the lack of design talent in India, remember that the Nano came from the same company and probably the same team.

If i recall correctly, Tata tied up with a German design firm to come up with the design for Vista, Grande and probably the Xover. So we should be blaming this company rather than Tatas.

World over companies carry over some design elements from previous models to keep the 'familiar face' and therefore brand recall. Its only in the recent past that there have been radical changes to the design of say a Honda Civic or a Toyota camry. Even the Bangle design came only a couple of years ago - till then the BMW had that oh so lovely design!

The Indica V2 got some design touches from Rover's design team to make it more palatable. Hopefully the Vista will get a similar touch from FIAT?
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Old 7th October 2008, 20:07   #33
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The Vista's headlights remind me of the peugeot 206/ 207 family. Why couldnt the design team look at that car for some 'more' inspiration!
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Old 7th October 2008, 20:22   #34
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I'll let you guys in on a secret. The reason the Vista looks so similar to the Indica is that you simply cant improve on Perfection. Thats right Tata's achieved perfection with the first design itself.

On a more serious note, while I understand that the Tata's should have taken this opportunity to come out with a new and fresh design for the exteriors, the fact is that the costs do go up. They probably thought that they have a very successful model and they've already improved the engine, the gearbox and the interiors, now why spend some more money on tweaking the exteriors?

Maybe a year or two down the line, you might just get the V2 Vista with some more cosmetic changes which actually help distinguish the two models.

Either ways, the Vista is a fantastic car, and the Tata's seem to have addressed most of the flaws associated with the earlier Indica. And this is sure to be reflected in higher sales in the coming months.
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Old 7th October 2008, 20:28   #35
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Originally Posted by Ajay_J View Post
We can build rockets but cant design cars, is it ? ..you went a bit too much supersyn.
India has many talented designers but I guess they are not given much chance. Telco itself has bunch of trained designers (from NID, IDC etc) but looks like they are invloved in some cosmetic facelifts and not full fledged design.
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Old 7th October 2008, 20:33   #36
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Originally Posted by Lalvaz View Post
now why spend some more money on tweaking the exteriors?
The entire body shell of Vista is different anyway, even if it resembles the old design. It would not have costed more money to make it look little more different.
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Old 7th October 2008, 20:47   #37
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Agreed,

I thought about it, was considering it as my next car, but then it looked so similar and I couldn't imagine myself being seen in an Indica.
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Old 8th October 2008, 03:32   #38
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Originally Posted by GTO View Post
Okay, I am beaten on this one. WHY did Tata give the Vista a near identical profile to the older Indica? Heck, last week, my sister didn't even realise that the bright red car next to us was the new Vista. I am sure this is the case with many a casual observer. It's not like Tata have the brand identity of a Merc / BMW / VW that they need to maintain a common family look. Period. Even Honda & Toyota refresh their designs with each new generation. If the new platform is a giant leap ahead (which it is), doesn't it make more sense to give it a fresh identity? Would the ANHC be so well-received if it looked like the NHC? Would the Swift be such a hotseller if it looked like an evolved Zen?
Well I think TATA wants to keep the Indica brand identity just like the permimum brands BMW, VW or Audi
One of the reason may be India being the primary market, unlike Honda or Toyota or Ford who will use the same model form Latin America to South east Asia, hence they can it worth/afford getting a completely new design.
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Old 8th October 2008, 09:39   #39
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Would the ANHC be so well-received if it looked like the NHC?
Lol. Infact I showed the new ACI to my father (an award winning engineer) and he thought it was very similar to his NHC Vtec on first glance.

As a Professional Car Designer I think this is going to be a substantial problem that needs to be considered very throughly by the respective design teams.

The evolution of an existing model (eg indica to vista) is a tedious process. Everyone needs to understand that these designs cannot be radically different from their predecessors. The evolution has to go through the cycle of design to ensure that all the possibilities are explored. If tata had come out with a radical indica then they would have missed the opportunity of the Vista (which IMHO is doing very well). For eg: If honda had not explored the NHC which was quite radical as compared to the OHC, then they would have failed to learn that it was not the best direction to go for. Hence the design cycle helped them identify the problem and develop the fresh and exciting ANHC.

Tata is trying to establish a design language just like honda is using the FCX concept as the new go green direction. The vista is the current benchmark for Tata. what every one will see in the coming years is the new indigo, marina, new safari and the innova competitor will start to share the same language. Again design language doesnt mean just the front and rear clips of the vehicle. It is more on the lines of proportion, acceleration of lines, surface definition and overall character and feel of the design. the vista's side view/silhouette will allow other concepts to achieve a cohesive feel hence creating a "Brand identity" and this is the main reason the indica and vista is an "evolution and not a revolution" from the indica v2.

Last edited by JRD : 8th October 2008 at 09:42.
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Old 8th October 2008, 09:57   #40
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Originally Posted by SuperSyn View Post
GTO, the reason Tata have retained the original Indica looks is because India does not have the talent/brains to make new designs. So they have affected some cosmetic changes while retaining as much of imported design as possible.

Original thought is lacking in this country. Or at least quality original thought.:(
FYI the Vista as well as the Nano has been designed at TATA Technologies Pune and anyone with even one design eye can see that the vista has undergone substantial work both form as well as engineering wise.
"cosmetic changes" is not as easily as putting make up on.

As far as "original thought in this country or atleast quality original thought" take a look at the Suzuki A-Star concept and the nissan 350Z. These are a few examples of the "quality original thought" in this country.

A little appreciation goes a long way in the development of "this" or I should say OUR country.
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Old 8th October 2008, 10:30   #41
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One more question is WHY Indica Vista? Simple vista or Tata Vista or XYZ Visya will also do.
I know more than 2 cases where tata lost customer to MUL only because the Indica word behind Vista.

Indica word attaches taxi image to the vista ( thought it is much better than INDICA) and similar looks to INDICA works as a combo which is keeping (Premium ) customers away from the vista.
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Old 8th October 2008, 10:49   #42
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There was an article an in overdrive on the same issue and writer correctly pointed out that Indica Vista is to be measured more by opportunity lost instead of gained . This car at best is contemporary and may not be path breaking or even different as i 10 was to Santro . May be Tata focussed too much on Nano and lost focus on Indica Vista .
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Old 8th October 2008, 11:46   #43
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Originally Posted by raul View Post
I think you misunderstood my post, I was responding to SuperSyn's post. I think its harsh to ask him to step down because of Vista, criticizing him is not what I was terming harsh.
Apologies. I take my words back.

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Originally Posted by Lalvaz View Post
with a new and fresh design for the exteriors, the fact is that the costs do go up.
Well, the dyes for the Vista are entirely new. As is the design. I don't see substantial cost savings here. The only problem is that the all-new design has still taken too much inspiration from the older Indica.

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Originally Posted by JRD View Post
Everyone needs to understand that these designs cannot be radically different from their predecessors. The evolution has to go through the cycle of design to ensure that all the possibilities are explored.
The Vista bears a striking resemblance to the Indica. As highlit previously, the untrained eye can't tell the Vista from the Indica in a passing glance (e.g. my sister's reaction). Even if Honda intends to maintain a certain family look, each successive generation of their cars is clearly distinguishable from the previous gen. Not too many are going to mistake the new Accord for the outgoing. Or the new City for the old. Look at the Germans, you can tell that the new S-Class is nothing but a Merc. Yet so different from the W220. Lower down the food chain, lets consider the i10. Similar in design principle to the Santro, yet it has its own identity.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hrishig View Post
One more question is WHY Indica Vista? Indica word attaches taxi image to the vista ( thought it is much better than INDICA) and similar looks to INDICA works as a combo which is keeping (Premium ) customers away from the vista.
Good point. Why not simply Vista? The fact that the new car, however fab, is branded & looks like the older Indica has effectively chalked it off a phenomenal no. of shopping lists. Whether we like to admit it or not, there is a category of customers who simply won't consider a "tata Indica" when looking out for a 5 lakh rupee hatch.
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Old 8th October 2008, 11:54   #44
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I am surprised that people find it difficult to differentiate between the old indica and the new vista. I would have imagined the new proportions together with the completely new character of the car up front would lend the required differentiation.

It looked quite different to me when I saw it in the showroom. But I must state I am yet to see one on road. Will need to keep my eyes peeled.

Though I agree that they could have made a clean break at least with the naming and dropped the indica tag altogether.
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Old 8th October 2008, 11:55   #45
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quicksilver : Could it be a cost-cutting measure (so Tata can still use the same dies and moulds as that of the Indica without much of a change) to keep the costs low for the Vista?
Very un-likely. These will be new dies - the car is bigger in proportion w.r.t the Indica.
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raul : I think its harsh to ask him to step down because of Vista, criticizing him is not what I was terming harsh.
Quite.

Actually, if you dont like, dont buy it. Nobody is forcing you to even look at the car !

Last edited by condor : 8th October 2008 at 12:01.
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