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Old 26th October 2008, 18:22   #151
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Smile Hey!, Look What Fiat Has To Say!!!

Hey look what reply I got on another forum... (People had questioned generally on its late launch and the justification for this Fiat mistake

(Dear Sir),

yes we are defitinately late for the launch ...........but it's for a Cause.......it's for something that you people will realise after the vehicle is launched.......The reason is that we want to bring into the market a good quality product with a cost that would be affordable to customers at all levels...........Its not that we dont realise about our competitors,and dear customers believe me....you will definately love its interiors and exteriors...............

Benson Babu
Process Quality
(FIAT INDIA AUTOMOBILES PVT LTD) (FIAPL)

I hope that is a reason for all of you people to keep quiet for the time being till Linea comes into view. Then we can believe it is correct...

P.S. Loved the multi quotes by Amit- you have justified everything except I would want the price to be around 8 lacs.
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Old 26th October 2008, 18:24   #152
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So from being a competitor for SX4/City, now it's a competitor to Laura and Accord!
Good going Fiat. :

I think it's better we stop these baseless assumptions and perceptions and wait for the car to reach the showrooms.
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Old 26th October 2008, 19:07   #153
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Originally Posted by speedzak View Post
So from being a competitor for SX4/City, now it's a competitor to Laura and Accord!
Good going Fiat. :

I think it's better we stop these baseless assumptions and perceptions and wait for the car to reach the showrooms.
dude you have some real issue with FIAT, don't you? All your post on this subject are always negative towards FIAT.

FIAT has never till now claimed that the Linea will be competing with the SX4/GHC3 or with the Laura/Accord.

So stop blaming FIAT for it, all this is just assumptions / views of fellow forum members.
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Old 26th October 2008, 20:02   #154
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Just saw the ANHC in the showroom yesterday...did not TD it though, But it actually a big dissapointment!..Don't get me wrong, its a good car and all that, but the Hype and Hoopla surrounding its launch, has been simply overwhelming. And IMO the Civic for 2 lakh more is far greater value for money. The only saving grace for the ANHC is, if the FE is as really as good as the Old City, in all driving conditions, and not just on the Highway.
Fiat can certainly learn many lessons from Honda about marketing and Hype. ( the artist impression in the Aug. issue of the ACI was definitely a selective Leak!.. No artist however good can make such an accurate rendition, by just observing a heavily masked Test Mule)
IMO, the Fiat Linea will rightly blow away the ANHC if it is priced in the same bracket.
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Old 26th October 2008, 21:31   #155
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Thumbs up Lol! Chill.

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Originally Posted by dude131 View Post
dude you have some real issue with FIAT, don't you? All your post on this subject are always negative towards FIAT.
It's a well known fact here on the forum buddy!
Quote:
Originally Posted by dude131 View Post
FIAT has never till now claimed that the Linea will be competing with the SX4/GHC3 or with the Laura/Accord.

So stop blaming FIAT for it, all this is just assumptions / views of fellow forum members.
You haven't read my post well. Or didn't get the sarcasm out of it. So, chill.
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Old 26th October 2008, 22:20   #156
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Originally Posted by amit View Post

If the features mentioned in this thread do come with the car then I believe the Petrol Dynamic and Emotion variants will compete with SX4, G3HC, Verna and Fiesta petrols. Maybe the MJD Dynam.....

I don't understand why you think the car has to have a diesel engine with more features at a lesser price to deliver value against the G3HC. You are heading for a disappointment if you expect that. Neither Fiat nor any other company can do what you are expecting.



Having said that, no matter what the features and price, the Linea will never pose a challenge to the City.

I am not sure about this, but my post reflects what I am expecting from Fiat.
And IMHO, anything above G3HC wont be much VFM.


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Originally Posted by amit View Post
What makes you think of that? This is news to all of us!
OK. It was just a thought/feeling that Tata might not want Linea to be sold through its dealerships. Still, its not new, but my view or feeling.

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Originally Posted by amit View Post

Would a Emotion+ Linea MJD priced at a premium of about Rs.50K over the Civic V be VFM for you?
With 1910cc, 148 bhp, 305 Nm torque, yes it will be.


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Originally Posted by amit View Post
To me it would. The car is Civic sized with a diesel engine and more features then you see in a Honda Accord. That's the way I would see it. If thats not VFM, I don't know what is. The closest car to the Emotion+ in terms of features would be the Laura L&K and we all know that car costs almost 2 million bucks!
Its not matter of how Fiat performs, but its matter of what people think and how the competitors manage this.

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Originally Posted by amit View Post
How many car owners know the size of their cars engines? I have never seen a prospective Indian car buyer, irrespective of the segment he is looking to buy a car in, ask the salesperson about the size of the engine. For most people, if the car is driveable it's good. Slight sluggishness for 2kmpl more is definately acceptable. Most Linea's will be chauffer driven.
Exactly, the Indian customer is not very well informed. Well, if a person has budget to buy Linea, then most of them definitely will visit to other cars's dealerships in the same price band. There the fact that Linea will have just 1248cc engine will come up and rest the marketing skills we know.
He might not know well, but then again others can inform him and make him believe that its not sufficient for 1185 kg ( approximation, taken from other site ) body.

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Originally Posted by amit View Post
I don't know why these points are raised when it comes to Ford, GM, Fiat and not when it comes to Honda? The Fiesta 1.4 came in, and we had people talking about the car being sluggish. Why not the same questions for the 77bhp NHC?...

With due respect, Honda is the manufacturer that I have many times pointed out is taking us for granted. Not putting in ABS till SX4 arrives is the proof enough.

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Originally Posted by amit View Post
Quite a few people seem to be waiting for the Linea to fail. If the features mentioned in this thread are actually being considered by Fiat then I hope the Linea is a blockbuster success and Fiat manages to keep the car a success at the sales charts. It will be good for Indian car buyers if the Linea succeeds.
I hope that this car gets success and Fiat sorts out all the issues as its car are good for India, no doubt about this.


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Originally Posted by amit View Post
A Emotion+ MJD at about 11.5-13.5 lacs would force other car manufacturer's to give more features at more realistic prices to us. The SX4 forced Honda and Ford to give us 2 Airbags and ABS. The Linea with 6 airbags, blue&me, follow me /coming home lights, ASR blah blah will force other companies to do the same. For the sake of the forever shortcharged Indian customer who pays premium prices for cars with basic features, I hope the Linea dominates the C and C+ segments.
Well, if Honda/Toyota manages to produce a car with a some reasonably complex variable valve timings in the range of 11-14 lakhs ( Civic and Corolla Altis ), then IMO, Fiat should deliver 1.6 modern diesel for the same price atleast. Hyundai offers a good diesel at 9 lakhs. Linea considering bigger size, but smaller engine should cost almost equal. Now if they want to cross tihs pricing, then a better motor is required.

IMHO, wait and watch is the best thing to do now. We dont know what the pricing is and pricing alone is capable of deciding the fate of this ( almost all Indian ) car.
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Old 26th October 2008, 22:44   #157
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The car is Civic sized with a diesel engine and more features then you see in a Honda Accord.
Surely, you jest…
I can sense from your previous posts that you seem to be an ardent FIAT fan (believe me, as am I) and at times a FIAT defender but to even suggest that the Linea offers more features than the Honda Accord even if considered vis-à-vis their respective segments is – well down right ludicrous. At its perceived price point and segment, the Linea might offer a lot more than its competition but at no level can I see it offering more than the Accord. It appears that you are completely ignorant of the features that the new Honda Accord offers and browsing through this would help. For arguments sake, the Accord in its segment is hugely considered value for money and is Honda's bread and butter car in America – the world’s largest car consumers and a market that is oblivious of FIAT’s existence not considering Ferrari, Iveco, Maserati and Alfa Romeo.

I do remain a FIAT fan and personally would like to see the Linea dethrone the City'2008.

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Originally Posted by amit View Post
How many car owners know the size of their cars engines? I have never seen a prospective Indian car buyer, irrespective of the segment he is looking to buy a car in, ask the salesperson about the size of the engine.
I feel that a huge amount of car buyers would know the difference between say an 800 engine and a Zen engine, so on and so forth, especially when you are plunking down your hard earned money. With so many car magazines (like a Rs.30/- WHATCAR? Magazine for example) offering in general what is considered decent car buying tips, most if not all customers are quite aware of what they are buying – engine size included. It would be foolish not to do some R&D on the cars in your budget and just rely on what the salesperson tells you before investing in one.

Quote:
Originally Posted by amit View Post
For most people, if the car is driveable it's good. Slight sluggishness for 2kmpl more is definately acceptable.
If most of us were to perceive a car as just driveable to get us from point A to point B and back, then shouldn’t we be content with just the Maruti 800 and limit our alternatives to say the Nano?

Quote:
Originally Posted by amit View Post
For the sake of the forever shortchanged Indian customer who pays premium prices for cars with basic features, I hope the Linea dominates the C and C+ segments.
Amen! to that…
I, for one would truly like to see FIAT India whip the daylights out of the competition but on a personal level I would only buy the 1.4 16V T-Jet 120bHp Linea, if it is offered fully loaded and that too at a price – mine being, on-road Mumbai, under Rs.10 lacs. For a car with the dimensions it touts, I feel 120bHp is bare minimum. At times I wish they would power it with 150bHp similar to some variants of the FIAT Bravo. Diesel is not my cup of tea so I couldn’t care less whether it came with 90bHp or 200bHp. Sadly, until FIAT’s new innings in India proves otherwise, buying a FIAT car in India as on date is still perceived by many as a risk. The car by itself is not part of the risk criteria, it’s what surrounds it. Hence if I am a potential Linea customer, I want maximum for my rupee, something what no other car in its class offers me (consider it as a reward for my risk) and at a killer price to make me feel that I have not only got maximum value for my money but got a great bargain as well, especially knowing that with any car purchase the moment you leave the showroom your car’s value drops by 25% immediately and knowing jolly well that until FIAT India effectively repairs its present reputation in India, I would always carry a lower resale value on their products as opposed to say a Honda, Ford, Maruti or Hyundai car.

Incidentally, the 1248cc 16V MultiJet 90bHp Diesel engine does appear to feel a bit sluggish and run out of breath as these two independent test drives here and here will certify. Thought potential Diesel Linea customers would like to be made aware of this.
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Old 27th October 2008, 06:45   #158
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Originally Posted by speedzak View Post
It's a well known fact here on the forum buddy!
OT:
So you are proud of your anti-Fiat campaign on this forum!

All I can say is Grow up....!
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Old 27th October 2008, 07:41   #159
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Seriously, guys: This thread has done only one thing - give our old Fiat discussions a new flavor called Linea.
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Old 27th October 2008, 08:59   #160
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Originally Posted by autoenthusiast View Post
I second that, I just don't see this happening in our country. Would be impossible to sell a vehicle (even with different specs) if there is such a high variation in the price, no one would want to buy the higher spec vehicle just because you would have someone else driving it and having bought it at a much much lower price. Also in our country a car is still a status symbol expecially on the road (wonder when this mindset might change).
Sorry off topic again and again. But don't you think that Indians buyers in the mid segment cars are already changing that mindset? I remember how Maruti expected SX4 LXI to sell more, but never expected more customers to ask for ZXI. And there were considerable price difference.

Even in Indica Vista, the only variants I have seen so far is quadrajet, which is the costliest (is it 30% more expensive than the cheapest Vista?)

People are completely misplaced, I would say. Indian car buyers are growing up. They do some basic test drive, specially in mid-segment and above, get to know the features and more importantly ask for opinions of someone in the family circle who they think has good car knowledge.

Only those who have never driven car in life and thus would hire somebody to drive back the new car from showroom to home, would not have done a proper test drive. Still they do collect a lot of feedbacks from others. Forget cars, people are even gathering all sorts of informations for two wheelers itself, which was something not heard a few years ago.

You people agree or not. That is what I'm observing around. May be internet age has helped a lot in the process of searching reviews and information about anything.
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Old 27th October 2008, 11:07   #161
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Hyundai offers a good diesel at 9 lakhs.
Sure they do but did you notice that the Verna VGT SX (top end diesel) doesn't have airbags even as an option and they only offer ABS as an option? For the same 9 lacs Ford offers the Fiesta with a 1.4L 68bhp diesel. ACC is not even an option on that car. If, for the same price, Fiat offers a engine thats 100cc less then Fiesta but one that gives 22bhp and substantially more torque with ABS, 2/6 Airbags and alloys and blue&Me then where is the problem?

Quote:
to even suggest that the Linea offers more features than the Honda Accord even if considered vis-à-vis their respective segments is – well down right ludicrous.
For lesser money the Linea emotion+ offers a diesel engine with almost the same features as the Accord. You seem to have conviniantly ignored the powerplant while comparing features. And by more features, I meant that the Linea will offer Blue&Me, something that even the CR-V, forget the Accord doesn't offer. I am not saying that a Accord buyer will compare it to the Linea. If I was looking to buy a Accord segment car, I wouldn't look at Linea too but with a diesel engine it surely seems great VFM even at 12 lacs. And since you talk of the Accord, the closest diesel to the Accord is the Skoda Laura and VW Jetta. These cars compete with the Civic in North America. The diesel Jetta slots in between Civic and Accord out there. Over here, they are priced higher then the Accord and I am guessing it's because they have a diesel engine. Laura Ambiente doesn't have as many features as the Accord but is still more or less at the same price point simply because it has the diesel attraction to pull in the buyers.

I don't see how I am defending the Linea. I am trying to ask people here to have realistic expectations. I would do that even if the Linea was a Ford, GM or a Rhino! The Linea, thanks to Fiat's reputation in our market, will have to offer more features then other cars in it's segment and that it will but to expect the emotion+ to offer D segment features WITH a 120-150 bhp diesel engine when the Verna's and Fiesta shy away from offering half as many features with lesser power plants is only heading for disappointment. Sadly, for Fiat, this thread isn't based on the companies official announcement but on some members talk with a company rep. Everyone here believes that the car will come with all the features being discussed and when the car would be missing some features then we will flame Fiat for it conviniantly ignoring that the company never made any official announcement about what’s being discussed here.

Quote:
I remember how Maruti expected SX4 LXI to sell more, but never expected more customers to ask for ZXI. And there were considerable price difference.
It was for the features. You get ABS and Airbags, ACC, alloys, integrated stereo (when it was launched), steering mounted controls for about 70-80K more. It was a combination of more features at realistic prices that made people root for the Zxi. Fiat seems to be following that policy. I have a Zxi and feel that the SX4 falls short by about 20bhp but for the extra features it offered over the Vxi and the Fiesta and Verna's, I went for it. Most people do the same and thats why it outsells the Vxi. Then there is also the snob factor of sporting the Zxi badge on your car over the base one. Some people bindly go for the top end version because it makes them look good in their neigbourhood.

Quote:
People are completely misplaced, I would say. Indian car buyers are growing up.
There are members here who have put a deposit down on a car without even looking at it forget test driving it.

Quote:
I would only buy the 1.4 16V T-Jet 120bHp Linea, if it is offered fully loaded and that too at a price – mine being, on-road Mumbai, under Rs.10 lacs. For a car with the dimensions it touts, I feel 120bHp is bare minimum. At times I wish they would power it with 150bHp similar to some variants of the FIAT Bravo.
That would be just awesome wouldnt it? To be honest, I expect Fiat to give us the T-Jet and 150bhp JTd with 6 speed MT in the Grande Punto for about 7.5 lacs. But realistically, will it happen?

Maruti, with it's huge volumes, offers the Swift with the dinosour age Esteem engine. Honda, with it's zooming and dominating City sales, charges 9 lacs for the G3HC and doesn't give Alloys and ACC, Verna VGT doesn't give ABS, Airbags as standard, Fiesta SXi D doesn't give ACC. Is it because the margins are really that much tight or because they, specially in the case of Verna and Fiesta D, are taking advantage of our obsession with diesel mileage? Ironically, it seems like India's most abused and hated car company will give us the answer in the next few months!

Last edited by amit : 27th October 2008 at 11:10.
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Old 27th October 2008, 11:23   #162
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Smile PRO-FIAT atleast till Linea launches!

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Originally Posted by finneyp View Post
OT:
So you are proud of your anti-Fiat campaign on this forum!

All I can say is Grow up....!
You are right about speedzak... cursing () a car and its features is just not going to help- maybe pessimism should be converted into optimism- hey speedzak chillax, you can say negatives about Linea and express your views but keeping on sarcastically teasing the Linea just dosen't make sense. So there- as the car launch is near we all should look on the positives and dude yes Linea will possibly attack the Accord segment as features in the Linea are not even there on the accord though price wise Fiat is more concerned than Honda wo has a higher brand image.!!! So speedzak you were right on that point!

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Old 27th October 2008, 11:56   #163
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RX - with due respect, all people are not fools. If there is such a widespread perception, there has to be some basis behind it.

I dont think you can put all of FIAT's weaknesses down to just perception. Or those of any other manufacturer.

Lets face it - it was and still is a failed product. There are reasons why a product fails, and turning a blind eye to them by blaming everything on 'perception' simply doesnt cut ice. If the company shares the same viewpoint, god help them - they've fallen short of profit and sales targets again in their home market (Europe) just 2 years after turning the corner thanks to GM's largesse and one big product launch and several analysts are predicting a predicament for them that is similar to that of the other proudly Italian marquee - Alitalia.
I didn't say that and neither do I mean to say it. They have had poor A/S/S and apathy towards customers. That is not perception. (Actually it is perception for *me*, since I never faced it in last 4 years). They have confused marketing team in India, which is not perception. And, finally the brand name has no value, which is not a perception.

That is why, I was very specific about what I thought as perception and not reality. Hope, this clears it up.

Every time I drive a non-Fiat car, I feel sorry about how Fiat wasted their otherwise excellent products.

Last edited by RX135 : 27th October 2008 at 12:07.
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Old 27th October 2008, 12:16   #164
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I think Fiat should be given a chance here - no point in Fiat support or bashing. let's take this one product at a time. However, recovering lost image is a daunting task - and Fiat knows that.

They've done a decent job with the 500 launch. I'm sure they're preparing well for this one.

In either case, they're making things straight before their workhorse comes along, on which they are pinning all their hope for a turnaround - the Grande Punto. In all likelihood, the GP's going to bring them the volumes they seek. The Linea is a prelude to it - perhaps to establish and iron out things.

IMHO, It's most important for Fiat to revamp their showrooms and *** - even if they become adjacent to a TATA showroom. On the other hand, exclusive FIAT centers in cities will boost consumer confidence a great deal, and more so if the service is good.
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Old 27th October 2008, 13:16   #165
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The Linea is not yet launched. We can't say anything about it right now. It may turn out to be a gem of a product or a trash can. Let's reserve our judgment for the time when we are able to get our hands on it. Till then, this thread is closed.
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