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Old 25th October 2008, 15:29   #121
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Originally Posted by RX135 View Post
Well perceptions are perceptions because they are only thought to be so. Need not be correct. Old Pre-NV Palio was perceived as fuel inefficient due to Odometer problem when it was not so, 1.6 is perceived to be inefficient but it runs 1.6 engine and it gives excellent FE when compared with any other 1.6 engine, 1.6 was perceived to be less FE because it was compared with Santros and Wagon-Rs (1 segment below).
RX - with due respect, all people are not fools. If there is such a widespread perception, there has to be some basis behind it.

I dont think you can put all of FIAT's weaknesses down to just perception. Or those of any other manufacturer.

Lets face it - it was and still is a failed product. There are reasons why a product fails, and turning a blind eye to them by blaming everything on 'perception' simply doesnt cut ice. If the company shares the same viewpoint, god help them - they've fallen short of profit and sales targets again in their home market (Europe) just 2 years after turning the corner thanks to GM's largesse and one big product launch and several analysts are predicting a predicament for them that is similar to that of the other proudly Italian marquee - Alitalia.
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Old 25th October 2008, 15:51   #122
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Well, it boils down to whether you go by the opinions of majority of public (who don't own a Fiat car) or from the experiences of minority Fiat owners!

Obviously, the opinions of the majority (non-fiat owners) who rather have assumptions without any basis, form the perception!

Last edited by finneyp : 25th October 2008 at 15:53.
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Old 25th October 2008, 16:40   #123
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Originally Posted by finneyp View Post
Well, it boils down to whether you go by the opinions of majority of public (who don't own a Fiat car) or from the experiences of minority Fiat owners!

Obviously, the opinions of the majority (non-fiat owners) who rather have assumptions without any basis, form the perception!
Very well said Finney. Agree with you on that one. Its like telling someone " Oh! You own that thing, and are happy with it too? Thats a blatant lie ". Why then are we guys holding on to our prized possessions afterall? I mean I am sure there are many of us guys who've owned a Fiat product since more than 5 years and are completely happy with the overall experience, infact we dread the day when we would have to part ways with our cars.

Agreed, Fiat has been wrong in almost all departments, except in the department of making cars. But as RX put it in his post, perceptions too did play a big enough role in the car's failure. The cars were compared directly to those that were actually a segment lower. Why, even BS motoring had compared it directly with their Santro in one of their first reviews of the Palio in Dec 2001.

Frankly, we have to stop bickering about whats happened in the past and just discuss the future, the Linea right? On second thoughts, whats left to discuss on that car? Hmm..

Last edited by roms : 25th October 2008 at 16:47.
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Old 25th October 2008, 16:46   #124
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There seems to be a lot of assumptions and closed mindedness in your comments. Why?

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Originally Posted by aaggoswami View Post
They are obviously very confused. Fiat discontinues 1.6 Palio, then again they launch it.
Yes they are. Since you talk of the 1.6 Palio, lets stick to that. The car was way ahead of it's time and Fiat didn't manage to put this across to it's buyers. The Palio 1.6 was launched in 2002. Even today in 2008, there is no hatch with a 1.6L engine. Mid-size 8-9 lac rupee cars even today are being launched with a 1.6L powerplant. IMO, Fiat goofed up with the Palio 1.6. They gave a car they thought would sell. They should have given a car that the market wanted. To add to that, back in 2002, the Palio 1.6 was the only car from 0 to 15 lacs that had ABS, EBD and Airbags.

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Linea is a good product, no doubt, but then agian positioning between C & D is not a nice thing to do.
huh? Then where will they position that car?! It's a C/C+ segment car and it's being positioned in that segment. Where do you want the Linea? In the Swift/Getz segment?! Depending on variants it seems like Fiat is trying to cover the Fiesta, Verna , SX4 , Aveo, G3HC on one end and the Civic, Corolla Altis on the other.

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Maximum they can take is 8 lakhs. They cannot dream to price this car around G3HC with the existing motor. Rs. 8-9 lakhs is OK for FIAT Linea if the motor would be 1.6 120bhp version.
Honda charges almost 9 lacs for a 1.5 I-VTEC petrol and you want Fiat to price the 120bhp 1.6 MJD with more features for the same price?! By the way, I don't think the 1.6 engine is coming. At least not now. Why can't they charge more then 8 lakhs? If they do launch the Emotion+ with a 90bhp diesel then why can't they ask for Rs.12 lakhs? The car is diesel and will have features not seen on the Accord!

Quote:
Again as usual for FIAT, A.S & S. would be controlled by Tata and not FIAT. Hope that finally step-motherly treatment would go away.
For Fiat and their future's sake, I hope so too.

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I dont think that Tata will allow selling of FIAT Linea. If it does, its good.
Huh?! What makes you think of that? Are you saying Tata will not allow the Linea to be sold through their dealerships or that Tata will not allow the car to sell at all? If it's the latter, then why is Fiat launching the car?!

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Expected a better motor.
You don't want to pay more then 8 lacs but expect a high end powerful engine?

Quote:
Octavia is also 90bhp, but it is a large motor. I am sure there will be some issues regarding the highway performance, though not of cruising. More power and torque would be more appreciated.
90bhp from 1.9L and 90bhp from 1.3. Seems like the smaller engine is more efficient doesn't it? One is a TDi and the other is state of art CRDi. People are ready to pay 10 lacs for a TDi and 8 lacs for a better, more hi-tech engine? I don't understand how people are willing to pay almost Rs.20 lacs for a TDi Laura but say they will not shell out more then 8 lacs for a Linea. Is it just because of brand? I think it is because after all the Laura outsells the Sonata doesnt it? Can't comment on highway performance without test driving it but I am sure 90% of people wouldn't have a problem with the 90bhp motor.
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Old 25th October 2008, 16:56   #125
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Originally Posted by finneyp View Post
Well, it boils down to whether you go by the opinions of majority of public (who don't own a Fiat car) or from the experiences of minority Fiat owners!

Obviously, the opinions of the majority (non-fiat owners) who rather have assumptions without any basis, form the perception!
Sorry to disagree. Majority of the Indian car owners have once upon a time had a Fiat themselves or atleast one in their houses. Nobody can easily forget the Padmini/138D that easily.
Same goes with the Palio/Petra/Siena. Even myself, I have seen all these cars at my house and my relative's houses. None of them were pleasant experiences to write about.
Why are all these bad perceptions exclusive to Fiat alone? Why is it not happening to other manufacturers/cars? As I said earlier, there should be some fire somewhere for a big smoke to appear.
Perceptions don't just come up blindly. There're many things which lead up to it.

Linea is just another great chance for Fiat to cover it up. Hope they grab this opportunity correctly.
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Old 25th October 2008, 17:24   #126
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Originally Posted by speedzak View Post
Nobody can easily forget the Padmini/138D that easily.
Padmini/139D were manufactured by a company called Premier Automobiles Ltd (PAL) in collaboration with Fiat, not directly by Fiat!
Quote:
Same goes with the Palio/Petra/Siena. Even myself, I have seen all these cars at my house and my relative's houses. None of them were pleasant experiences to write about.
We like to know more about it!
Pls post a Ownership experience of the Fiat cars, you or your family owned!
Quote:
Why are all these bad perceptions exclusive to Fiat alone? Why is it not happening to other manufacturers/cars?
Not only Fiat, even Ford, and GM to certain extent!
Quote:
As I said earlier, there should be some fire somewhere for a big smoke to appear.Perceptions don't just come up blindly. There're many things which lead up to it.
I have given the reasons in my previous post above!
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Linea is just another great chance for Fiat to cover it up. Hope they grab this opportunity correctly.
Yes! Please give the car (Linea) a chance, before we start passing judgements!
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Old 25th October 2008, 19:07   #127
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Originally Posted by speedzak View Post
Majority of the Indian car owners have once upon a time had a Fiat themselves or atleast one in their houses. Nobody can easily forget the Padmini/138D that easily.
Same goes with the Palio/Petra/Siena. Even myself, I have seen all these cars at my house and my relative's houses. None of them were pleasant experiences to write about.
I am trying to understand the significance of the highlighted part. What basis for perception does the Padmini ownership experience offer, especially when the oft-criticised aspects of the FIAT ownership are A.S.S and availability of parts.

The only relevant connection i see is this. these days if someone says they are buying/owning a FIAT, people immediately think of the Padmini and go eeekkk!!!

Is there something i am missing. Please enlighten us.
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Old 25th October 2008, 19:21   #128
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Originally Posted by jagan0677 View Post
The only relevant connection i see is this. these days if someone says they are buying/owning a FIAT, people immediately think of the Padmini and go eeekkk!!!

Is there something i am missing. Please enlighten us.
Jagan, I guess it all depends on the generation a person has come from. Not meaning to sound insultive to anyone.

IMHO, it really doesn't bother me, I don't see how the current FIAT's and experiences can be compared to the Padmini. Both are totally different sets of vehicles and a different era altogether.

Come to think of it, in the days when the premier padmini was sold, compared to the rest of the vehicles available at that time, the premier padmini was a pretty decent vehicle. Ofcourse it can't be compared to the cars today, it's a different generation altogether.
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Old 25th October 2008, 19:35   #129
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Knowing Fiat's management style, I can only imagine the chaos and confusion on the assembly floor esp if they are building Palios and Lineas on the same line.
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Old 25th October 2008, 20:01   #130
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Knowing Fiat's management style, I can only imagine the chaos and confusion on the assembly floor esp if they are building Palios and Lineas on the same line.
imagine a person getting a Linea with a Palio engine, just kidding, just kidding... couldn't help saying it.
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Old 25th October 2008, 20:44   #131
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Originally Posted by aaggoswami View Post
Once more, FIAT are back. I am tired of hearing this again and again. They are obviously very confused. Fiat discontinues 1.6 Palio, then again they launch it.

Linea is a good product, no doubt, but then agian positioning between C & D is not a nice thing to do. Maximum they can take is 8 lakhs. They cannot dream to price this car around G3HC with the existing motor. Rs. 8-9 lakhs is OK for FIAT Linea if the motor would be 1.6 120bhp version.
Again as usual for FIAT, A.S & S. would be controlled by Tata and not FIAT. Hope that finally step-motherly treatment would go away.

A few issues.
1) Availability of dealers. The dealers are far less in number to sell the car itself. I dont think that Tata will allow selling of FIAT Linea. If it does, its good.

2) A.S & S.

3) The palio was a huge success initially and then waiting list for even reasonably small number. Hope they sort the things out before coming into war zone.

4) Expected a better motor. Octavia is also 90bhp, but it is a large motor. I am sure there will be some issues regarding the highway performance, though not of cruising. More power and torque would be more appreciated.
Fiat can even dream to price Linea more than ANHC why because the built quality of Linea is far better than ANHC.More than that Linea have lots of additional features.
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Old 25th October 2008, 20:50   #132
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Thumbs up Lol!! Lol!! Lol!!

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Originally Posted by autoenthusiast View Post
imagine a person getting a Linea with a Palio engine, just kidding, just kidding... couldn't help saying it.

That would be another first in the auto industry managed by Fiat!!
Fiat Palio: 4lacs
Fiat Linea: 10lacs
Confusion on a customer's face when given a combination of both: priceless!
Couldn't resist it! Sorry guys.
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Old 25th October 2008, 21:10   #133
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Originally Posted by autoenthusiast View Post
imagine a person getting a Linea with a Palio engine, just kidding, just kidding... couldn't help saying it.
In the 80s there was a Chrysler plant churning out Plymouths and Dodges. One day they ended up building a car with Dodge front grille and Plymouth rear lights. They had to rework about 400 cars or so.
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Old 25th October 2008, 21:52   #134
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Originally Posted by finneyp View Post
Well, it boils down to whether you go by the opinions of majority of public (who don't own a Fiat car) or from the experiences of minority Fiat owners!

Obviously, the opinions of the majority (non-fiat owners) who rather have assumptions without any basis, form the perception!
I know this is not FIAT v/s Rest of the World thread, but I just *couldn't" help back finneyp on this: +1 to you
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Old 25th October 2008, 23:15   #135
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Originally Posted by amit View Post
Yes they are. Since you talk of the 1.6 Palio, lets stick to that. The car was way ahead of it's time and Fiat didn't manage to put this across to it's buyers. The Palio 1.6 was launched in 2002. Even today in 2008, there is no hatch with a 1.6L engine. ...

Sir I think we are trying to say the same thing. FIAT cars are undoubtedly good. The fact is that FIAT is not able to make the most out of it. I have from heart appreciated Palio, a hatch that happens to be the best built along with Fabia. But FIAT always goofs up and end result is what we know.


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Originally Posted by amit View Post

huh? Then where will they position that car?! It's a C/C+ segment car and it's being positioned in that segment. Where do you want the Linea? In the Swift/Getz segment?! Depending on variants it seems like Fiat is trying to cover the Fiesta, Verna , SX4 , Aveo, G3HC on one end and the Civic, Corolla Altis on the other.
It must not be over 7.5 lakhs, IMHO.


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Originally Posted by amit View Post

Honda charges almost 9 lacs for a 1.5 I-VTEC petrol and you want Fiat to price the 120bhp 1.6 MJD with more features for the same price?! By the way, I don't think the 1.6 engine is coming. At least not now. Why can't they charge more then 8 lakhs? If they do launch the Emotion+ with a 90bhp diesel then why can't they ask for Rs.12 lakhs? The car is diesel and will have features not seen on the Accord!

This way its a sure shot that Linea will beat G3HC efficiently in almost every parameter of the car. And that is what I want. I want Fiat Linea to show Honda how to deliver value to Indian customers.



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Originally Posted by amit View Post
Huh?! What makes you think of that? Are you saying Tata will not allow the Linea to be sold through their dealerships or that Tata will not allow the car to sell at all? If it's the latter, then why is Fiat launching the car?!
I meant what is there in bold letters above.


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Originally Posted by amit View Post
You don't want to pay more then 8 lacs but expect a high end powerful engine?
Thats value and almost a 100% confirmation that this car can beat G3HC effortlessly. Nothing else. I want Hyundai and Honda to learn from FIAT about value. This is the only car now that can do this. One car that partially did this was SX4.


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Originally Posted by amit View Post


90bhp from 1.9L and 90bhp from 1.3. Seems like the smaller engine is more efficient doesn't it? One is a TDi and the other is state of art CRDi. People are ready to pay 10 lacs for a TDi and 8 lacs for a better, more hi-tech engine? I don't understand how people are willing to pay almost Rs.20 lacs for a TDi Laura but say they will not shell out more then 8 lacs for a Linea. Is it just because of brand? I think it is because after all the Laura outsells the Sonata doesnt it? Can't comment on highway performance without test driving it but I am sure 90% of people wouldn't have a problem with the 90bhp motor.
I know the technology bit, but then 1248cc wont be enough IMHO. Moreove, the general public will say like this " for this much money,just 1248cc engnie ? ".Dont like this happening. Swift has not told everyone about the true capabilities of modern diesel technology, the CRDi.


Yes its true, cannot comment on performance till test driving is done.


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Originally Posted by amit View Post
There seems to be a lot of assumptions and closed mindedness in your comments. Why?
Well, the answer is this. We wanted a FIAT car but the issues never allowed us to have Petra diesel. Not that we are unhappy with Baleno, but then we really liked Petra. We did not buy the car becasue of the issues and problems for which FIAT is responsible and could have performed better.
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