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Old 25th January 2012, 23:24   #316
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Default Re: Diesel cars guzzling 40% of segment's fuel

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Originally Posted by SunilM View Post
Trashing industry contention that diesel use by cars is very low, the Centre for Science and Environment (CSE) Wednesday said 40 percent of the total fuel used in the car segment in the country is diesel.
So we should buy our diesel cars now while there is no tax and we can later command a premium
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Old 26th January 2012, 00:59   #317
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Default Re: Diesel cars guzzling 40% of segment's fuel

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Can you elaborate on the above point?
I just quoted the article and provided source link. Don't shoot the messenger!

Let me take a shot at elaborating their point, though. Most diesel proponents argue that since the fuel efficiency/kmpl of a diesel is higher than that of a similar petrol engine, diesel releases lesser greenhouse gases. This statement is true, but it also misses the other important part. Diesel, being a less refined fuel, emits higher particulate matters in air - which may cause serious diseases like cancer. It also emits higher NOx, which not only increases "visible pollution" by contributing to haze, it may also lead to lung diseases. Newer engines are better, but no where as clean as their petrol counterparts. The US EPA says "Because of the technical challenges associated with controlling NOx and PM emissions, manufacturers have not been able to design diesel vehicles that comply with the strictest EPA and California emission standards. However, we expect to see more diesels offered in the future as improvements to diesel emission control technology are made."

My understanding is, the CSE was referring to these factors. I prefer to trust a report from neutral agency like CSE more than an biased SIAM report which has vested interest. Nobody wants kids, family and friends to be put at risk (even if it is very small) simply because somebody chooses to save a few bucks driving diesel (due to stupid govt policies) and our government just doesn't care to correct the mismatch and effectively subsidises such behavior with the price differential.

Last edited by SunilM : 26th January 2012 at 01:08.
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Old 26th January 2012, 07:37   #318
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Originally Posted by SunilM

I prefer to trust a report from neutral agency like CSE more than an biased SIAM report which has vested interest. Nobody wants kids, family and friends to be put at risk (even if it is very small) simply because somebody chooses to save a few bucks driving diesel (due to stupid govt policies) and our government just doesn't care to correct the mismatch and effectively subsidises such behavior with the price differential.
Sorry buddy, but I have to disagree with this statement. The CSE is NOT a neutral body- its a viciously anti development and anti free market "Eco terrorist" group, which specialises in releasing sensationalist reports, and creating health scares where none should exist. The vast majority of diesel used in India is used by trucks and buses - and any risk from particulate emissions primarily arises from the same. If there is a genuine health concern about diesel engines, we need to start by mandating that all trucks and buses which enter cities comply with Euro 4 or Euro 5 norms- which is not the case.

There are loads of good reasons to abolish the diesel subsidy, starting with the fact that India cannot afford it, but health concerns from diesel car emissions are nowhere on that list. Having concerns about emissions from modern Euro 4 diesels and not about trucks is in the same category as worrying about minuscule quantities of pesticide found in Coke but not about the much larger quantities of the same found in drinking water or sugar sold in Indian markets.
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Old 26th January 2012, 07:47   #319
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Default re: Rationalising diesel prices*Update: 50p rise/month announced*

The premium is paid when a diesel car is purchased in the form of extra cost of diesel engines and also more road tax. Then why is the burden again???.

The government is keen in increasing the revenue , but are they interested in spending for the development of the country. If yes, then still why our country is like this

Last edited by rki2007 : 26th January 2012 at 07:50.
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Old 26th January 2012, 08:28   #320
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Default re: Rationalising diesel prices*Update: 50p rise/month announced*

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Originally Posted by Hayek View Post
There are loads of good reasons to abolish the diesel subsidy, starting with the fact that India cannot afford it, but health concerns from diesel car emissions are nowhere on that list. Having concerns about emissions from modern Euro 4 diesels and not about trucks is in the same category as worrying about minuscule quantities of pesticide found in Coke but not about the much larger quantities of the same found in drinking water or sugar sold in Indian markets.
Very rightly said. When I first read the report I was pretty appalled that a body like CSE which considers itself scientific have decided to club commercial trucks with a 5 series sedan or a high end SUV. That too without backing up anything with statistics and just passing generic statements.

I have driven a fair amount on highways and in no way can most commercial trucks pass road worthiness tests from what I have seen. Not only do they belch smoke profusely but simply the lack of maintenance of these vehicles can cause much more pollution than scores of high end diesel sedans and SUVs. So would the CSE recommend making these vehicles roadworthy through regular checks and maintenance which by the way can increase cost of transportation many fold thereby pushing inflation. I am not for maintaining status quo but it is the skewed policy of taxation of fuels by the government to blame.

I am not sure what CSE expects. All citizens who can afford cars should buy petrol ones to pay out more money to the government just because they can do so? They already pay enough taxes through payroll taxes and state taxes, service taxes, its actually endless, lets not count. The CSE should have the guts to do a breakdown analysis on how petroleum products are unfairly taxed in out country. Anyway here is the link to the actual press release where I believe one can leave comments Press Release: CSE trashes contention that diesel use by cars is very low | Centre for Science and Environment.
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Old 26th January 2012, 11:49   #321
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Default Re: Diesel cars guzzling 40% of segment's fuel

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Originally Posted by SunilM View Post
I just quoted the article and provided source link. Don't shoot the messenger!

Let me take a shot at elaborating their point, though. Most diesel proponents argue that since the fuel efficiency/kmpl of a diesel is higher than that of a similar petrol engine, diesel releases lesser greenhouse gases. This statement is true, but it also misses the other important part. Diesel, being a less refined fuel, emits higher particulate matters in air - which may cause serious diseases like cancer. It also emits higher NOx, which not only increases "visible pollution" by contributing to haze, it may also lead to lung diseases. Newer engines are better, but no where as clean as their petrol counterparts. The US EPA says "Because of the technical challenges associated with controlling NOx and PM emissions, manufacturers have not been able to design diesel vehicles that comply with the strictest EPA and California emission standards. However, we expect to see more diesels offered in the future as improvements to diesel emission control technology are made."

My understanding is, the CSE was referring to these factors. I prefer to trust a report from neutral agency like CSE more than an biased SIAM report which has vested interest. Nobody wants kids, family and friends to be put at risk (even if it is very small) simply because somebody chooses to save a few bucks driving diesel (due to stupid govt policies) and our government just doesn't care to correct the mismatch and effectively subsidises such behavior with the price differential.
I guess even CSE would be surprised at the kind of reverence that they are being treated with , since when have they become a credible source ? As Hayek mentioned they have positioned themselves as anti-establishment and thats how they rake in the moolah . Diesel should be free market pricing , it cannot be because of the reason that its a 'dirty' fuel since its a flawed view! India should adopt low sulphur diesel asap , the planning has to start now for things to be implemented in a couple of years time
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Old 26th January 2012, 11:59   #322
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Default re: Rationalising diesel prices*Update: 50p rise/month announced*

I don't think anything will change Unless we get a clear one party mandate at the centre in 2014. If its coalition which most likely it will be then there is no way the subsidies are going away. For a simple thing like introducing electronic meters and putting in GPS devices all the Taxi's and Trucks and Buses unions go on strikes, paralyzing the country. So the Govt in no way can do away with those old battery of trucks and buses belching out black fumes. At the same time they cannot touch the subsidy since inflation is here to stay. With the subsidy gone it will only increase and no govt can bear with that.

So increasing the taxes for the diesel cars is the only way I see this going forward. And with constant increases in Petrol prices I doubt that even these increased taxes will be able to curb the sales of Diesel cars.
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Old 26th January 2012, 13:05   #323
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Default re: Rationalising diesel prices*Update: 50p rise/month announced*

I may be a bit OT, but I believe diesel car owners are already paying a diesel tax, which does not go the government, but to the car makers by way of 1 lac (and onwards) premium charged for diesel cars over equivalent petrol models. Based on my limited understanding, diesels cars should not cost that much more to make with respect to petrol cars. It is mainly the automobile companies making profits exploiting the petrol and diesel price difference.
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Old 26th January 2012, 13:26   #324
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Default re: Rationalising diesel prices*Update: 50p rise/month announced*

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Originally Posted by altius View Post
I may be a bit OT, but I believe diesel car owners are already paying a diesel tax, which does not go the government, but to the car makers by way of 1 lac (and onwards) premium charged for diesel cars over equivalent petrol models. Based on my limited understanding, diesels cars should not cost that much more to make with respect to petrol cars. It is mainly the automobile companies making profits exploiting the petrol and diesel price difference.
Dude, Diesel engines are more expensive to make than petrol engines. All that clatter is from those more number of parts that go into the diesel engine and make noise. You need to pay for those dont you

That said diesel engines have always been relatively more expensive to manufacture.
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Old 26th January 2012, 15:09   #325
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Default re: Rationalising diesel prices*Update: 50p rise/month announced*

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Originally Posted by abhi1309 View Post
Dude, Diesel engines are more expensive to make than petrol engines. All that clatter is from those more number of parts that go into the diesel engine and make noise. You need to pay for those dont you
Lol, that's one way of putting it.

@altius,
Basically a diesel engine costs more because of the extra measure of durability required to withstand the stress of high-compression diesel combustion, plus additional components such as turbochargers.

Having said that, I doubt if the additional cost would actually match the difference between petrol and diesel options. Also I am pretty sure most car companies would be putting an additional premium on diesel cars just to cash on the diesel car needs.
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Old 26th January 2012, 15:45   #326
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Default re: Rationalising diesel prices*Update: 50p rise/month announced*

This news is from TOI Bangalore today:

Green’s want diesel cars taxed
Pankaj Doval TNN

New Delhi: The clamour for making diesel cars dearer is getting louder, just ahead of the Budget, with environment lobbyists and sections of the government advocating higher taxes to compensate for the subsidy the fuel enjoys. While the petroleum ministry is believed to have advocated a raise in excise duty on diesel cars to compensate oil companies that have to keep diesel prices low, environment lobby Centre for Science and Environment (CSE) has also pressed the government for a higher tax on diesel cars. CSE said that rapid “dieselization” is not only a drain on the exchequer but is also leading to increased health risks as the emissions from diesel cars and the fuel itself are much higher when compared to petrol. “Emission data shows that diesel cars, on an average, emit seven times more particulates and three-to-five times more nitrogen oxides than petrol cars. There is sufficient evidence that tiny particulates emitted from a diesel vehicle are toxic and carcinogenic,” Anumita Roychowdhury of CSE said. Taking a cue from the recommendations of a committee headed by former Plan panel member Kirit Parikh, the CSE said that an additional Rs 81,000 excise duty should be slapped on diesel cars to keep their rising popularity under check. Roychowdhury agreed that de-controlled diesel prices are the right way to take things forward.

My take:

Raising taxes for diesel cars and making it costlier does not answers the environmental impact related concerns. If the government is thinking that people will be put off by the hike not to buy the diesel they must first understand that people buy high end diesel cars because of performance and FE reasons and these people have lots of money to do so in the first place. Coming to environmental impact so we are talking about people still going ahead and buying these cars which make no difference hence.

the greens must rather do something about alternative fuel and move gradually into another viable solution and then prevent diesel from being used at a later stage when we are self sufficient. increasing taxes is not a solution

Last edited by GeekSrik : 26th January 2012 at 15:53.
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Old 26th January 2012, 16:30   #327
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Default re: Rationalising diesel prices*Update: 50p rise/month announced*

I think gradually (and this graduation should be pretty rapid) all inter-city public transport should move to electicity/hybrid options rather than diesel. Diesel should only be for inter-state vehicles. That should go a long way towards containing the pollution problem we have in India. Folks, lets not show a backside to this monster of a problem in the name of loving automobiles. Pollution is really a big big problem, esp in cities. In Bangalore I constantly feel allergies (and not just me, every second person looks like that. Even small children have breathing problems.) I have been here in Sweden on a business trip since last week and here I dont feel the same problem at all !!! All city buses here run on electricity. The cities in India have become health hazards and it is going to be worse. It will be worse for our children and even much worse for their children. Think of what legacy we are leaving for them.

One can find 1000 faults with CSE but what they say is not wrong. Instead of ridiculing them, it might make sense to find veritable solutions. The govts should be pressurised to phase out diesel from public transport (like something that was done in Delhi which for some time made it better, till all the new cars there brought back contamination levels to pre-CNG!)
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Old 26th January 2012, 16:45   #328
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Default re: Rationalising diesel prices*Update: 50p rise/month announced*

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Originally Posted by joslicx View Post
I think gradually (and this graduation should be pretty rapid) all inter-city public transport should move to electicity/hybrid options rather than diesel. Diesel should only be for inter-state vehicles. That should go a long way towards containing the pollution problem we have in India. Folks, lets not show a backside to this monster of a problem in the name of loving automobiles. Pollution is really a big big problem, esp in cities. In Bangalore I constantly feel allergies (and not just me, every second person looks like that. Even small children have breathing problems.) I have been here in Sweden on a business trip since last week and here I dont feel the same problem at all !!! All city buses here run on electricity. The cities in India have become health hazards and it is going to be worse. It will be worse for our children and even much worse for their children. Think of what legacy we are leaving for them.

One can find 1000 faults with CSE but what they say is not wrong. Instead of ridiculing them, it might make sense to find veritable solutions. The govts should be pressurised to phase out diesel from public transport (like something that was done in Delhi which for some time made it better, till all the new cars there brought back contamination levels to pre-CNG!)
Not a great solution really. Ignoring the infrastructure setup (required on an individual/society level), we need to look at the energy production methodologies. Electricity production is mostly done through thermal power stations, and these mainly use coal as a fuel, which again comes back to the core issue of pollution.

Some time back there was a video on Honda's fuel cell car tested out in the Top Gear. A far better eco-friendly solution than hybrid cars, if only the technology becomes more viable. From a realistic (today's) view, CNG is a far better solution than hybrid or petrol or diesel cars.

As for CSE, what they are saying isn't wrong. But it isn't correct either. Basically they are playing with the numbers and presenting a view that defames diesel consumption. 9/10 of their facts can be easily twisted the other way, if one gets the base numbers.

However the basic truth is this - diesel is a cheaper, more abundant (relatively), more economical and (if low-sulphur fuel is introduced) more eco-friendly too. Only problem - the government is not able to find a method to tax the common man without hitting on the industry and transport sectors, and in the end, themselves.

Clarification : Low sulphur diesel obviously won't be cheaper to produce than petrol.

Last edited by ninjatalli : 26th January 2012 at 16:53.
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Old 26th January 2012, 17:31   #329
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Default re: Rationalising diesel prices*Update: 50p rise/month announced*

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Originally Posted by joslicx View Post
The govts should be pressurised to phase out diesel from public transport (like something that was done in Delhi which for some time made it better, till all the new cars there brought back contamination levels to pre-CNG!)
I don't have any data but this is what I feel as a layman living in Delhi.
After the introduction of CNG in both buses, auto and Taxis, Delhi has totally transformed. There are no longer any black fumes. You can easily drive with your window open if you feel like although you will have to battle the noise pollution then. I don't know about sulfur levels from private cars but wouldn't it be very less given the modern diesel engines?

Also a major factor for contamination going back to Pre-CNG era is the ever rising industrial growth too.
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Old 26th January 2012, 18:22   #330
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Default re: Rationalising diesel prices*Update: 50p rise/month announced*

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Originally Posted by ninjatalli View Post
Not a great solution really. Ignoring the infrastructure setup (required on an individual/society level), we need to look at the energy production methodologies. Electricity production is mostly done through thermal power stations, and these mainly use coal as a fuel, which again comes back to the core issue of pollution.

Some time back there was a video on Honda's fuel cell car tested out in the Top Gear. A far better eco-friendly solution than hybrid cars, if only the technology becomes more viable. From a realistic (today's) view, CNG is a far better solution than hybrid or petrol or diesel cars.

As for CSE, what they are saying isn't wrong. But it isn't correct either. Basically they are playing with the numbers and presenting a view that defames diesel consumption. 9/10 of their facts can be easily twisted the other way, if one gets the base numbers.

However the basic truth is this - diesel is a cheaper, more abundant (relatively), more economical and (if low-sulphur fuel is introduced) more eco-friendly too. Only problem - the government is not able to find a method to tax the common man without hitting on the industry and transport sectors, and in the end, themselves.

Clarification : Low sulphur diesel obviously won't be cheaper to produce than petrol.
I am not talking about individuals. I am talking about public transport - buses as somebody said they emit a lot of polluting gases. And electricity is more viable solution than say something radical like fuel cell (in Indian context as fuel cell is still very nascent tech, expensive and not proven over long term or on a mass scale). Electricity might be produced by coal but the production factories need not be in the cities. Cities could be made cleaner and electric vehicles wont emit harmful gases so that can improve quality of living drastically in cities where around 350m people live India today.

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Originally Posted by drmohitg View Post
I don't have any data but this is what I feel as a layman living in Delhi.
After the introduction of CNG in both buses, auto and Taxis, Delhi has totally transformed. There are no longer any black fumes. You can easily drive with your window open if you feel like although you will have to battle the noise pollution then. I don't know about sulfur levels from private cars but wouldn't it be very less given the modern diesel engines?

Also a major factor for contamination going back to Pre-CNG era is the ever rising industrial growth too.
Well I was in Delhi recently (during last Diwali) and moved around a bit in a govt vehicle that had no A/C so we had windows open and I can tell you it wasnt good! The pollution in Delhi is definitely worse than Bangalore!! If you dont believe me, you can look at the pollution meter in the news or maybe that info might be available on internet as well. And I feel there should be an effort to contain pollution from all parties. Saying that its first the responsibility of others to reduce their emissions is just running away from the problem (the good old indian way!) Overall the emissions from cars might be less compared to other vehicles like buses/trucks but there could be pockets of space in the cities where there will be lot of cars and there the emissions from cars could be substantial and can have adverse effect on health of people living there. Just a thought, you are a doctor you might know better.

Growth should make our Quality of Life better not worsen it.
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