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Old 30th January 2012, 02:29   #346
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Default re: Rationalising diesel prices*Update: 50p rise/month announced*

Perhaps a good way to reduce diesel car sales is to ban diesel cars from the road. 2 warnings followed by impounding the car.
It can be policed easily as compared to dual pricing. I would also reduce the consumption of diesel by 1.6% and also reduce the pollution levels.
Diesel cars may be bought for personal use on non public roads.
That would surely be a feather in petrolheads cap. And also set to rest the unjust use of subsidized fuel.
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Old 30th January 2012, 08:53   #347
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Default re: Rationalising diesel prices*Update: 50p rise/month announced*

@wildsdi - that is the most ridiculous suggestion that has ever come up on this forum. There are 4 of us carpooling in the car and we had all had a good laugh over it while I read it aloud.

While I stop myself from reverting your points, I would recommend you and others quoting the words of this great government about diesel subsidies. There is none. There is a minor price correction pending which might be done if the pricing is deregulated.

What is differentiating is that this great government wants to lay the excessive taxation and duties on diesel as they have been doing on petrol. What we should realize is while they were able to do this on Petrol when the prices were rock bottom decades back, they'll get screwed if they try to lay it on diesel in today's scenario, even if it is only for car owners.

I call this taxation on petrol unjust. Forget the reasons, just observe that the taxes are a Percentage, not fixed values. So as the crude price increases, the taxes too. Now think about it - why should the tax amount increase just because the global price went up. But nobody questions it because that's how it is been done since ages. We were paying close to 16Rs as taxes for every litre of petrol in 2008, and now we pay close to 32 now, double the amount in 4 years without any reason. Would you agree if your salary taxation increases in such a manner?

Please think about it guys, next time you think about mentioning "diesel subsidies".
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Old 30th January 2012, 09:21   #348
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Default re: Rationalising diesel prices*Update: 50p rise/month announced*

I would suggest the following:

1. Price fuel by its Calorific Content.

2. Same taxation on all kinds of fuel incl. Kerosene. See the Kerosene sales plummet and cleaner air (less adulteration of diesel).

The fact that there may be a new government then next time round will be a bonus.
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Old 31st January 2012, 00:10   #349
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Default re: Rationalising diesel prices*Update: 50p rise/month announced*

@ninjatalli: glad to have made you and your friends happy.
I own a diesel car and upto my neck with comments on this forum and from friends. My suggestion is just to show that diesel consumed by personal cars is a minority and taxing that minority for the commercial majority is stupid.
If diesel cars were banned, it would not affect diesel consumption in anyway. the fact remains that people who pay a premium to buy diesel cars do so for a variety of reasons and not to exploit the govt's hypocracy.
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Old 2nd February 2012, 08:27   #350
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Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ninjatalli
@wildsdi - that is the most ridiculous suggestion that has ever come up on this forum. There are 4 of us carpooling in the car and we had all had a good laugh over it while I read it aloud....

We were paying close to 16Rs as taxes for every litre of petrol in 2008, and now we pay close to 32 now, double the amount in 4 years without any reason. Would you agree if your salary taxation increases in such a manner?

Please think about it guys, next time you think about mentioning "diesel subsidies".
I agree with you on the suggestion, but think it was tongue in cheek.

I however must disagree on ad valorem taxes. That's how everything in India is taxed - eg for the car you buy, we have 20% CENVAT + 12.5% state VAT + 4% Octroi + 7% registration (in Bombay), and as car prices rise, the tax you pay rises too. That also applies to simpler things like a packet of biscuits, why should petrol or diesel be treated differently?

And let's recognise that at least so far this year, the government has succeeded in collecting only 60 p in tax and other revenues for every Rupee it spends (and that is after recognising the taxes on diesel as income, but not counting the subsidies owed to oil companies as expenses), so taxes have to go up or spending has to be cut drastically. Any commodity which is being taxed below the average level of taxes is being subsidised - I agree that petrol and cars are over taxed but diesel prices clearly need to be a lot higher.

And the argument on inflation is also pure bull ****, as freight is a small part of the price of most commodities, and diesel costs are only a fraction of total freight costs.
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Old 3rd February 2012, 00:46   #351
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Default re: Rationalising diesel prices*Update: 50p rise/month announced*

Spending on statues and poll freebies is not really the common man's wish. I think he would rather have lower taxes than a tv set or a statue to bow before.
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Old 9th February 2012, 22:42   #352
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Default Re: "Dont buy BMWs & Audis":Jairam Ramesh

Just in case someone who doesn't understand what diesel subsidy really means. It means that you, me, and everybody else is paying (in some part) for the fuel (diesel) for the rich spoilt brat speeding around in his BMW, Audi, big SUVs, etc. Now please understand that diesels cars are still a minority compared to petrol cars. May be they should levy a huge tax on diesel luxury cars.
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Old 10th February 2012, 10:01   #353
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Default Re: "Dont buy BMWs & Audis":Jairam Ramesh

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Originally Posted by pamiboy View Post
Just in case someone who doesn't understand what diesel subsidy really means. It means that you, me, and everybody else is paying (in some part) for the fuel (diesel) for the rich spoilt brat speeding around in his BMW, Audi, big SUVs, etc. Now please understand that diesels cars are still a minority compared to petrol cars. May be they should levy a huge tax on diesel luxury cars.
Sorry old chap. As far as I understand subsidy means that the total 'Take' is less than the total 'Give'. While this is true for Kerosene, it is not true for diesel. If you cover all the taxation at various levels, there is still a small 'Take' in Diesel, so it is not a subsidy!

Kirit Parikh committee had re3commended a flat 80,000 tax on all diesel passenger vehicles, since it is unlikely that the taxation on diesel will ever be as high as on Petrol - the transporters lobby (under the cover of the Farmer's Lobby) will ensure this. What I will love to see is the removal of all subsidies on Kerosene as well as Diesel and LPG. If Nepal's experience is something to go by, then Kerosene demand will plummet and Diesel go up. Remember the various murders by the adulteration mafia.

The BPL folk can always be given a cash subsidy to cover the Kerosene price increase, and hopefully using Aadhar this can be better targeted.
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Old 10th February 2012, 11:16   #354
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Default Re: "Dont buy BMWs & Audis":Jairam Ramesh

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Originally Posted by sgiitk View Post
Sorry old chap. As far as I understand subsidy means that the total 'Take' is less than the total 'Give'. While this is true for Kerosene, it is not true for diesel. If you cover all the taxation at various levels, there is still a small 'Take' in Diesel, so it is not a subsidy!
That is one way to look at it. But knowing well, that it is me (a petrol user) who is being taxed more so that the diesel users be taxed less, I would be happier if my money is used to help some poor farmer than a luxury diesel car owner.
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Old 10th February 2012, 11:20   #355
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Default Re: "Dont buy BMWs & Audis":Jairam Ramesh

We guys here in India - especially the Politicos are full of rhetoric. No action ensues.

Possibly the rot has set in so deeply over these last 60 odd years that it is well nigh impossible to cleanse.

Drastic measures are required, but we are too lazy or politically motivated to make anything happen!
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Old 10th February 2012, 12:06   #356
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Default Re: "Dont buy BMWs & Audis":Jairam Ramesh

With the 80k tax, I believe vehicle manufacturers will probably see their sales affected, with more people opting to retain their old cars or buy pre-owned vehicles to avoid the tax. The current taxation and insurance already brings the on-road price to at least a lakh over the ex-showroom prices. An 80k tax across all diesel vehicles will definitely see the greatest increase in terms of percentage for the Tata Nano diesel. A slab-based taxation instead would seem more appropriate based on vehicle price.
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Old 10th February 2012, 16:52   #357
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Default Re: "Dont buy BMWs & Audis":Jairam Ramesh

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Originally Posted by civic-sense View Post
That is one way to look at it. But knowing well, that it is me (a petrol user) who is being taxed more so that the diesel users be taxed less, I would be happier if my money is used to help some poor farmer than a luxury diesel car owner.
Dear Friend, why do you have this sense that all diesel cars are luxury cars only? In segments where both petrol and diesel models are available, the diesel varient is sold @ minimum 70,000 to 1,00,000 extra, so diesel owners are already paying more(more towards ex-showroom+ more road tax+more insurance).
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Old 10th February 2012, 17:01   #358
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Default Re: "Dont buy BMWs & Audis":Jairam Ramesh

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Originally Posted by sunishsamuel View Post
I don't think minister did some analysis of the situation before he commented like that. If his worry is about the number of SUVs in India, then he should understand most people buy suv's just because they cannot afford to damage their sedans in the indian roads, even the toll roads are damaged and no repairs in site (check hosur, krishnagiri stretch for eg) . I really thanked myself for the decision to buy a SUV after the last weekend trip to kumbakonam, velankanni via thiruvannamalai. I could drive through knee deep water while sedans had to stop or get damaged. Something that we are already discussing on.

Secondly, i would love to avoid taking my car to office, provided

- the autos do not harass me and charge only what it takes to take me to my destination.
- the public transport is easily accessible and frequent, and available even after 10pm in the night

Further, i end up taking my car most of the times for a weekend/long weekend trip to home just because rail tickets are never available, buses unsafe, flights not so economical. Here we talk about problems and never worry about solutions that would work, instead try to blame it on something or other to escape.

Further, why is he not talking about the trucks that are more than 10 year old with old technology which are majority in number ? They can be replaced with newer trucks which offer better fuel efficiency and lower CO2 emissions. Let govt work on providing cheap loans (as low as 2-4%) for replacing old trucks.

It does not make sense to tax the SUV's and expensive sedans more. They just form a minute percent of the total vehicle population in india. And if he is intending to do so, then does he mean more and more people should buy a maruti alto or nano which is fuel efficient than a safari and squeeze in seven people with luggage and enjoy an unsafe trip ?
Sorry to be quoting an old post but it brings out a side of the discussion which is often overlooked (probably with good reason) by the administrative and political machinery.

If the basics are improved - i.e condition of roads and better traffic management, capacity and quality of public transport - the administrative machinery will certainly have a moral ground to bring in restrictive policies towards personal transportation in terms of both purchase and usage. And not just by way of taxes but also options like congestion charges in city centres, higher parking fees and so on. The reason for public acceptance of such measures n many Metropolitan areas around the globe is because they are introduced only after a comprehensive solution for public transport is established in the first place. This is what our authorities need to understand.
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Old 10th February 2012, 18:33   #359
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Default Re: "Dont buy BMWs & Audis":Jairam Ramesh

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Originally Posted by asdon View Post
Dear Friend, why do you have this sense that all diesel cars are luxury cars only? In segments where both petrol and diesel models are available, the diesel varient is sold @ minimum 70,000 to 1,00,000 extra, so diesel owners are already paying more(more towards ex-showroom+ more road tax+more insurance).
Cars are luxury for some, not luxury for others. No point fighting over it.

By paying 1L more for diesel cars, you pay for the cost of the car. And the additional tax you pay on the premium is minuscule compared to the tax lost by the govt via the diesel these cars consume.
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Old 10th February 2012, 18:54   #360
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Default Re: "Dont buy BMWs & Audis":Jairam Ramesh

Subsidy! They need to work more efficiently with the money they already have before trying to get more. Whatever is provided to the oil companies as subsidy comes either out of our fuel bill or our tax bill.
I think where most of us are concerned, it makes no difference. Of course, if they do find a way of realizing some sort of revenue on pvt vehicles using diesel, they will reduce income tax
Also, I may be wrong, but the way the OCs calculate loss is very highly complex and is not a straight loss.
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