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Old 10th February 2012, 19:22   #361
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Default Re: "Dont buy BMWs & Audis":Jairam Ramesh

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Originally Posted by dingolphie View Post
Subsidy! They need to work more efficiently with the money they already have before trying to get more.
While I agree with the first part of the above sentence, the second part should have no bearing on the first one. Because expenditures anyway have to be met, the govt tries to cover under-recoveries from taxes by printing more currency. That increases inflation, and inflation affects everybody equally. So in effect the petrol car/bike owner shares the burden of the tax "saved" by the diesel car owners.

Imagine, the bikes+800s+altos+i10s+santros pays for the deficit created by the audis+beemers+skodas+VWs+tatas+fiats. (Sorry for not making a comprehensive list. People who feel left out, please excuse )
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Old 10th February 2012, 19:41   #362
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Default Re: "Dont buy BMWs & Audis":Jairam Ramesh

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If the basics are improved - i.e condition of roads and better traffic management, capacity and quality of public transport - the administrative machinery will certainly have a moral ground to bring in restrictive policies towards personal transportation in terms of both purchase and usage.
OT: Once the govt stops watching Porn during parliamentary sessions they have a right to even 'think' morals..... phaah!!!!
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Old 10th February 2012, 20:26   #363
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Default Re: "Dont buy BMWs & Audis":Jairam Ramesh

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Originally Posted by Zed View Post
If the basics are improved - i.e condition of roads and better traffic management, capacity and quality of public transport - the administrative machinery will certainly have a moral ground to bring in restrictive policies towards personal transportation in terms of both purchase and usage. And not just by way of taxes but also options like congestion charges in city centres, higher parking fees and so on. The reason for public acceptance of such measures n many Metropolitan areas around the globe is because they are introduced only after a comprehensive solution for public transport is established in the first place. This is what our authorities need to understand.
I Agree to this.

City Commute:
I purchased a car just for the reason that I cannot bargain with Auto-Rickshaws in Chennai. Refusals and Exhorbitant fare are the main reason for me not using them. Buses are overcrowded, infrequent and not convenient.

Out Station Commute:
Lets take an example of reaching Madikeri from Chennai. There are no Volvo Buses and the only bus which is there from Chennai - Madikeri, enters Bangalore Mysore etc, whereby wasting time.
It is challenge to find reliable Call-Taxis in Chennai at odd hours. Autos - the lesser said the better. It is also a challenge to move Luggage from Vehicle Drop Off area to the Railway/Bus Station. There are no Porters / Coolie / Trolleys to move luggage. Taking CMBT Bus Station for example, There is no way (even if we are ready to pay) to move luggage from the bus to the Taxi stand. Coolies Charge Exhorbitant Rates at Railway stations. Two Suitcases with one sholder bag is charged around 150/- byt he Porter AFTER bargaining and over and above that I need to hear his cribbing/scolding about long queues at the Prepaid-Taxi Stand. The same challenge of Autos / Taxis at the destination is a turn-off. For an example Autos Asked me 100 - 150/-from Madikeri Bus Station to Club Mahindra Madikeri. The distance is hardly 4 kms. 40 Rs per km for an Auto-rickshaw

Human Factors:
Abuse by Auto-Richshaw drivers / public, Crowds, Sweat and heat in Buses, bargaining at every point really removes the fun / enthu about visiting a place.

Given all the above factors, I seriously prefer to drive my car and reach the destination more comfortably and relaxed rather than face inconveniences of Public Transport.

Before Forcing us to use Public Transportation, Govt must ensure that its easily accessible and equally comfortable. Given Harsh Indian Summers, AC is no more a luxury, its more of a necassity.

Last edited by scopriobharath : 10th February 2012 at 20:28.
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Old 10th February 2012, 20:56   #364
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Default Re: "Dont buy BMWs & Audis":Jairam Ramesh

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Originally Posted by apachelongbow View Post
OT: Once the govt stops watching Porn during parliamentary sessions they have a right to even 'think' morals..... phaah!!!!
At the face of it... its pretty pathetic. Its in the face of parliaments collective inertia (or inability perhaps) to get anything done to match the expectation of the electorate that such an incident takes on an even greater dimension.
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Old 10th February 2012, 21:37   #365
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Default Re: "Dont buy BMWs & Audis":Jairam Ramesh

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Originally Posted by civic-sense View Post
Because expenditures anyway have to be met, the govt tries to cover under-recoveries from taxes by printing more currency. That increases inflation, and inflation affects everybody equally. So in effect the petrol car/bike owner shares the burden of the tax "saved" by the diesel car owners.

Imagine, the bikes+800s+altos+i10s+santros pays for the deficit created by the audis+beemers+skodas+VWs+tatas+fiats. (Sorry for not making a comprehensive list. People who feel left out, please excuse )
Thats the point I was trying to make. Don't make bikes/800s/altos/i10s pay, Cut some of the 101 schemes/corporations/funded bodies that I support from my income tax, that do nothing thats of any use to anyone in the real world and use that for the subsidy i.e. reduce some of the other expenditure to subsidise the cost of fuel, whether diesel/petrol.

For the record, I am not talking about the schemes that actually benefit anyone and India being India, I'm all for fair taxation to ensure housing/food/education and healthcare for those that need it. But atleast in Kerala I see many funded departments/corporations/companies that haven't ever done anything thats benefited anyone. I'm guessing we have that in the central govt as well.
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Old 10th February 2012, 23:23   #366
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Default Re: "Dont buy BMWs & Audis":Jairam Ramesh

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Originally Posted by dingolphie View Post
Thats the point I was trying to make. Don't make bikes/800s/altos/i10s pay, Cut some of the 101 schemes/corporations/funded bodies that I support from my income tax, that do nothing thats of any use to anyone in the real world and use that for the subsidy i.e. reduce some of the other expenditure to subsidise the cost of fuel, whether diesel/petrol.
Wrong solution. Even petrol users pay income tax. Why should somebody else subsidize diesel cars? They should pay, one way or the other. Either via taxes, or via excise duty.
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Old 10th February 2012, 23:30   #367
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Default Re: "Dont buy BMWs & Audis":Jairam Ramesh

I was just wondering about the ratio of 'bikes+800s+altos+i10s+santros' vs 'audis+beemers+skodas+VWs+tatas+fiats' in 2 stats:
-total number of vehicles
-total fuel consumed

I am sure that the ratio will be far skewed towards the first group.
But then again, India is a country where the minority is always taxed to feed the majority.

So the sentiments voiced are certainly keeping with our culture.

I also agree that the poor farmers who get free electricity, no income tax, ridiculously low interest on loans with frequent waivers, More money from insurance than from cultivation, etc. need more subsidies.

Likewise the poor corporate truck owners, poor armed forces and railways, Poor business running generators, poor private bus owners.

All of the above should be supported by the hard working man who aspires for a audis+beemers+skodas+VWs+tatas+fiats.

Isn't that the essence of Marxism? and isn't India well on it's way to communism? 30 years back, India of today would be shrouded by a red curtain.
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Old 10th February 2012, 23:55   #368
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Default Re: "Dont buy BMWs & Audis":Jairam Ramesh

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Originally Posted by civic-sense View Post
Wrong solution. Even petrol users pay income tax. Why should somebody else subsidize diesel cars? They should pay, one way or the other. Either via taxes, or via excise duty.
I'm not sure you got my point. I was challenging the concept of 'petrol users subsidising diesel users'. I don't believe that petrol should be taxed at a different rate either. All I say is, provide fuel, whether diesel/petrol at a reasonable rate and make use of taxation income to make up the subsidy for the shortfall. After shelter/food/security/health care, I believe facilitating transport should be one of the high priority areas for the govt.
If you still feel differently, I think we can agree to differ
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Old 11th February 2012, 00:10   #369
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Default Re: "Dont buy BMWs & Audis":Jairam Ramesh

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Originally Posted by wildsdi5530 View Post
I was just wondering about the ratio of 'bikes+800s+altos+i10s+santros' vs 'audis+beemers+skodas+VWs+tatas+fiats' in 2 stats:
-total number of vehicles
-total fuel consumed

I am sure that the ratio will be far skewed towards the first group.
So what? People are increasingly moving to diesel thereby exploiting diesel subsidies even further. Again, however low be that number, if we can plug the hole, we should do it.

Quote:
But then again, India is a country where the minority is always taxed to feed the majority.

So the sentiments voiced are certainly keeping with our culture.

I also agree that the poor farmers who get free electricity, no income tax, ridiculously low interest on loans with frequent waivers, More money from insurance than from cultivation, etc. need more subsidies.

Likewise the poor corporate truck owners, poor armed forces and railways, Poor business running generators, poor private bus owners.

All of the above should be supported by the hard working man who aspires for a audis+beemers+skodas+VWs+tatas+fiats.

Isn't that the essence of Marxism? and isn't India well on it's way to communism? 30 years back, India of today would be shrouded by a red curtain.
Quote:
Originally Posted by dingolphie View Post
I'm not sure you got my point. I was challenging the concept of 'petrol users subsidising diesel users'. I don't believe that petrol should be taxed at a different rate either. All I say is, provide fuel, whether diesel/petrol at a reasonable rate and make use of taxation income to make up the subsidy for the shortfall. After shelter/food/security/health care, I believe facilitating transport should be one of the high priority areas for the govt.
If you still feel differently, I think we can agree to differ

We have numerous problems at hand, but the current one under discussion is about diesel car users "exploiting" diesel subsidies that was originally designed to benefit some other types of users. Let us fix that first. Trust me, I am against any kinds of subsidies, but it hurts me more to see some "exploiting" government schemes which was meant to benefit some others.

Last edited by civic-sense : 11th February 2012 at 00:16.
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Old 11th February 2012, 00:36   #370
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Default Re: "Dont buy BMWs & Audis":Jairam Ramesh

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Originally Posted by wildsdi5530 View Post
Isn't that the essence of Marxism? and isn't India well on it's way to communism? 30 years back, India of today would be shrouded by a red curtain.
Haha , well said ! New concept of the day "Petrol subsidizes diesel !" , was that a breaking news somewhere? Hope people get their facts correct before dishing out their opinion.

This petrol Vs diesel debate often epitomises the very essence of Indians - it does not matter if I am getting screwed - as long as the others are getting equally screwed I am happy . Why are people not crying about the subsidies on LPG and CNG too ? After all those fuels are enjoying real subsidies i.e. sold at below cost price ( before any tax , levy, etc ) which is not the case for diesel.

We find miniscule percentage of people talk about bringing down the taxes and levies on all kinds of fuel- remove levies , taxes, proxy taxes on fuel and let it be market driven.
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Old 11th February 2012, 01:18   #371
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Default Re: "Dont buy BMWs & Audis":Jairam Ramesh

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Originally Posted by civic-sense View Post
We have numerous problems at hand, but the current one under discussion is about diesel car users "exploiting" diesel subsidies that was originally designed to benefit some other types of users. Let us fix that first. Trust me, I am against any kinds of subsidies, but it hurts me more to see some "exploiting" government schemes which was meant to benefit some others.
Oh good, in that case there's no issue, because no one is exploiting anything. Exploitation happens when, as in the case of LPG, the fuel allocated under one scheme is used illegally, which is not applicable to diesel as no one here has any other way of buying diesel.

I believe the discussion here is on whether diesel prices should be rationalised and not on anyone 'exploiting' any schemes. My answer - yes, if it means reduction in the price of petrol.

If diesel prices should be increased to match petrol so that the oil companies can make more money, I'm not sure it makes much sense. None of them are running at a loss and you might want to take a look at the notional calculation of loss by oil companies. In any case, they are public sector companies who are running at a profit. The profit is fed back to the govt who holds the majority shares.

If the point is that diesel prices have to be rationalised to reduce printing of money to keep inflation at bay, the idea is absurd. As I understand it, money is printed in line with overall budget deficit.

The overall cost of the oil subsidy is less than 0.5% of our budget out of which, the majority is due to LPG and kerosene and 40% is due to diesel. We are talking then of 0.2% of our budget. Passenger cars consume about 1% of total diesel consumption which means you are looking at controlling 0.002%.
You have to keep in mind that our budget deficit target is 4.6% and is now looking to run at around 5.4%. If we make up the difference in diesel prices, I think our budget deficit will reduce to 5.398%. If you expect inflation to go down because of this 0.002%, I'd like to smoke some of that stuff too!!

In my mind, the whole rationale of diesel prices and 'petrol users subsidising diesel users' is just to find a way to raise more revenue for the govt which is going to flow to the oil companies, and the vw/skoda/beemer/merc is just a tagline to ensure no serious protest from the public. Like typical politicos, they are not thinking of anything that will be effective, but want to appear to be doing something.

Last edited by dingolphie : 11th February 2012 at 01:20.
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Old 11th February 2012, 01:59   #372
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Default re: Rationalising diesel prices*Update: 50p rise/month announced*

I find it so amusing that a lot of people keep believing in the "subsidy" nonsense

There is no subsidy - there is a fuel that is being taxed crazily high without any apt reason and there is a fuel that the government is trying to impose similar taxes without touching their major vote banks & lobbies.

Now it all depends on which fuel one would want to opt for. Funny that people are more interested in getting others people wrongly taxed than getting themselves out of it.

I don't mind my house is on fire, as long as I can get the other neighbor's houses on fire too, eh? Who cares about dousing the fire at all!
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Old 11th February 2012, 04:58   #373
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Default re: Rationalising diesel prices*Update: 50p rise/month announced*

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Originally Posted by ninjatalli View Post
I find it so amusing that a lot of people keep believing in the "subsidy" nonsense

There is no subsidy - there is a fuel that is being taxed crazily high without any apt reason and there is a fuel that the government is trying to impose similar taxes without touching their major vote banks & lobbies.

Now it all depends on which fuel one would want to opt for. Funny that people are more interested in getting others people wrongly taxed than getting themselves out of it.

I don't mind my house is on fire, as long as I can get the other neighbor's houses on fire too, eh? Who cares about dousing the fire at all!

Well said!

imagine the amount of revenue earned by the government in the name of fuel taxes, road taxes and sales taxes..

It may have been ok if the road conditions and the quality of fuel is at a higher standard.

I may be wrong, but i dont think the current refineries have the capacity/ability to distill ULSD(Ultra Low Sulphur Diesel)
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Old 11th February 2012, 08:30   #374
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Default re: Rationalising diesel prices*Update: 50p rise/month announced*

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Originally Posted by ninjatalli View Post
I find it so amusing that a lot of people keep believing in the "subsidy" nonsense

There is no subsidy - there is a fuel that is being taxed crazily high without any apt reason and there is a fuel that the government is trying to impose similar taxes without touching their major vote banks & lobbies.
While I used to believe that there is no subsidy for diesel, I recently came across diesel prices in Shell.

Diesel at shell - Rs 65
Petrol at PSU - Rs 73
Petrol at shell - Rs 75
Diesel at PSU - Rs 45

So it is not just taxes. Approximately Rs 18 is the subsidy given for diesel.

Now, if you want to treat diesel as less taxed, am fine with that argument, but who bleeds because of it are the rest of the tax payers. The rest of us are footing the bill for the cheap fuel for mercs/beems/audis/skodas etc. As simple as that.

Last edited by civic-sense : 11th February 2012 at 08:32.
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Old 11th February 2012, 09:09   #375
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Default re: Rationalising diesel prices*Update: 50p rise/month announced*

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Originally Posted by civic-sense View Post
The rest of us are footing the bill for the cheap fuel for mercs/beems/audis/skodas etc. As simple as that.
The way you are making out the gargantuan amount of fuel the mercs/beems/audis/skodas are consuming they must be selling astronomically high numbers though its just not reflecting somehow on their balance sheets . Believe me dude, they would take that any day if that really happened.

I wonder why M&M is complaining to the government about this impending taxation of diesel vehicles though their most expensive one now doesn't cross 15 lakhs even. I would suggest that you stop drinking the koolaid the government dishes out and just crunch some numbers here on TBHP about the sales of the Boleros and the Sumos and how many do they sell every year. And most of them are going to the taxi segment providing transportation to the masses. No I am not talking of call cabs or taxis. I am talking of the overloaded ones that run in rural areas providing the lifeline to the rural masses. Now we dont have the numbers for the commercial trucks and buses and if you stack them up, I am not sure how can your argument about the massive diesel fuel consumption of the mercs/beems/audis/skodas when compared to them can hold up.
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