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Old 26th April 2012, 04:08   #466
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Default Re: Diesel Prices to go up? Deregulation on the cards!!!

No govt. in the foreseeable future, not just the present one, will have the
political will power to push through this change. So things will go on the way they are and we'll reach a point where financially we are in such a mess that it
will be deja-vu again, similar to the mess that the country was in 90/91.

And btw, TOI is simply blowing things out of proportion as always. In-Principle approval means nothing here.
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Old 26th April 2012, 07:05   #467
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Default Re: Diesel Prices to go up? Deregulation on the cards!!!

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Originally Posted by Warwithwheels View Post
Source
  • Do you think this will really happen? Not Really
  • What do you think the Govt. will do keep food inflation and other economic barometers under permissible limits? Even without diesel price rise they couldn't do much
  • Lastly how much do you expect the price to go up? Symbolic 2-3 rupees
Quote:
Originally Posted by supremeBaleno View Post
Yawn !!! Do we even need a thread for something like this which we have been hearing of since oil was first found in Digboi, but never ever moving further to concrete action ? Heck, when they chickened out on the extra taxation for diesel vehicles, is there any point in thinking they would de-regulate diesel ?
Ditto 100 %

Quote:
Originally Posted by nkrishnap View Post
Though logically correct of deregulating the prices, will this get through is another question all together.

"Logical" only with reference to the corresponding set of other policy parameters to amalgamate the impact on national economy as whole.
@Mods: I think a similar thread already exists "Rationalizing Diesel Prices" This thread can me merged.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Harbir View Post
From the Hinduthats $13billion of loss to the exchequer every year!

Deregulation may not happen now, but it will happen eventually. The diesel price issue is a drag on the Indian economy that will sooner or later have to be tackled.

Enjoy the party while it lasts.
Deregulation may not happen "ever" so enjoy the party and it is going to last very very long, thanks to

Didi's mamta flowing unabated coupled with govt. policy paralysis since 2004 (when APM was supposed to be dismantled)

Cheers
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Old 26th April 2012, 09:01   #468
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Default Re: Diesel Prices to go up? Deregulation on the cards!!!

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Originally Posted by vikrantj View Post
No industry survives without subsidy. I think rather than removing subsidy on diesel they should keep the subsidy as is and increase the taxes on the car/ancilliary manufacturers. This reduces the cars on roads and increases the demand foe having a proper public transport.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Optimus7 View Post
Subsidy really? Atleast 30% of the fuel prices go as revenue to the Government in the form of taxes. The government is in turn providing a subsidy, lower than the taxed amont. It is revenue for the government, the word subsidy is just a namesake. Can't the government try to increase its revenue in other areas (like fines for violation and so on) rather than relying on the revenue generated out of taxing an essential commodity.
I have given this issue some considerable thought and the long and the short of my opinion is -
A) Govt is not losing money on Diesel. It is just that they are not making as much money as they could if they were recovering all the taxes. So the correct way to describe the situation could be “Under recovery on account of diesel”
B) Govt cannot just raise the price of Diesel to cover all under recoveries unless they are feeling suicidal (politically).
C) The only viable strategy that comes to mind is "Divide and rule". The users must be divided into groups and the least acerbic (read-Private car owners and Non Agri Generator users) get the wake up call first.
They will give the Agri and the Trucking business a pass as these can organize themselves immediately and cause a lot of problems for the govt. Also the spectre of a large scale price rise in current economic scenario will immediately snuff that idea.
D) Removal of subsidies for Private non commercial vehicles can only be achieved by imposing a serious onetime tax on every engine being made. Differential pricing of Diesel will just fail.
There is going to be a serious case for rationalization of taxes as well. Can’t treat products like cigarettes/alcohol & petrol/clothes similarly.
• Maybe a new tax category for cigarettes/alcohol/gutka ..? I am certain that these 3 can more than offset any rationalization of taxes done in the case of Petrol/Diesel.
• Active Recovery of all subsidies on account of Diesel/Urea/Fertilizer used for agricultural produce that is being exported. Otherwise these subsidies are being enjoyed by customers in developed world and the big exporters here.
• I’m sure there will be many more avenues to make up any such shortfall that i’m not aware of.
Another point that I want to highlight is that in my various conversations with some bureaucrats they have often said that one of the reasons for such heavy taxation on fuel is to reduce the dependence on them on account of their non renewable nature and their coming from countries that are unreliable at best as there are many intertwined geopolitical concerns at play.
This argument though a sound one would have sounded less specious if the same was backed up with an alternative fuel development policy that one could see in full swing. We don’t see that at all. We see a half-hearted stab at Jathropa, a less than serious swing at ethanol from molasses and an inadequate dalliance with development of gas distribution infrastructure. Even in Delhi where a very large number of vehicles are sold/ registered and a CNG distribution system exists there is no attempt to ask the automobile manufacturers to make available an option of CNG in all of their models. What the govt is doing is grabbing the lowest hanging fruit i.e. raising of taxes and let the others happen by themselves.
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Old 26th April 2012, 11:55   #469
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Default re: Rationalising diesel prices*Update: 50p rise/month announced*

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Originally Posted by bharatbs View Post
If we don't control fiscal deficit, India will be further down graded to NON-INVESTMENT GRADE country, there will be no FIIs and our country is expected to slow down to 5% growth.
That's why I believe there is no choice but to do this. Besides UPA is not going to survive till 2014 period!
Hello Bharath,

Just read this in today's Economic Times: Decontrol of Diesel Prices unlikely. Decontrol of diesel prices unlikely - The Economic Times

As pointed by me earlier, already regional parties have already starting opposing any discussions on Diesel Price Hike. That is why I feel that no government worth its salt will even touch Diesel Prices before 2014 Election.

Also when it comes to India's Rating & other things of Economic Development, we all know how much political parties are concerned about it.

I am sorry for being cynical, but the fact remains the fact.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cowardly Lion View Post
I have given this issue some considerable thought and the long and the short of my opinion is -
Hello Cowardly Lion,

Well said. But we all know that Governments here are not serious about long term developmental plans & rationalization of Taxes. The idea you have put forth are worth thinking upon, but strangely it seems that people in power lose the common sense to think about all these things.

Thanks,

Last edited by Jignesh : 26th April 2012 at 11:59. Reason: Information added
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Old 26th April 2012, 12:31   #470
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Default re: Rationalising diesel prices*Update: 50p rise/month announced*

I think its high time we gave up on thinking of ways to increase the price of diesel, the government is in no position to stoke inflation with a price hike. A petrol fuel hike is more likely, currently if you are on the subsidy express, you can enjoy the ride for the foreseeable future. Petrol cars will be back in the game is the price difference is nearer to about 25% other than that, there is no way to convince people to waste money on a petrol(depreciation disaster).

On a related note, we should stop comparing Mercedes owners and bikers, the former are major tax contributors, and it is smart to recoup some of your expenses indirectly.
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Old 26th April 2012, 14:40   #471
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Default re: Rationalising diesel prices*Update: 50p rise/month announced*

I think the earlier the distortions in pricing are removed the better off we shall be. They will have to bite the bullet at some point. Thanks Cowardly_Lion for endorsing my view (of repeated) is that Diesel is by no means subsidized.

At the moment they are too busy with Bofors and ministers quitting to even pay the lip service to the Janta. Kamraj plan came when Nehru realised that he does not have long to live, now who thinks the same? I will not take the obvious name since I do not want to be charged with blasphemy.
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Old 26th April 2012, 14:59   #472
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Default Re: Diesel Prices to go up? Deregulation on the cards!!!

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Originally Posted by wildsdi5530 View Post
@optimus7: where did you arrive at 30% tax? Is it for petrol or diesel? I thought that Petrol was taxed about 120%. Or are you talking about some specific part of the tax?
It is for petrol, I meant that ~30% of the amount we pay for a litre of petrol goes to the government as tax.
In one of the threads a bhpian have arrived at the price of a litre of petrol without central and state government taxes. It was like, Petrol retail price - 70; Base price - 46; Taxes - rest of the price.

Also, can't the government increase its revenue through some other way? With a huge middle class population and a very wealthy upper class population, I wonder how the government is not able to earn sufficient revenue through tax alone. From toothpaste to soap to petrol, in everything we are paying taxes, but get nothing in return.

If the super rich in India pay their taxes correctly, it will boost the revenue a lot. But like in the past, only the middle and poor people will have to bear the brunt and we will do nothing about it, while the rich stash away black money for generations. Seriously is this the best India can do?

Last edited by Optimus7 : 26th April 2012 at 15:17.
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Old 26th April 2012, 15:22   #473
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Default re: Rationalising diesel prices*Update: 50p rise/month announced*

I think the government missed a golden opportunity in this year's budget to boost revenue by not imposing additional taxes on diesel passenger cars. In my opinion that could have been a clean way as much as possible to recoup some of the reduced tax intake on diesel that the government suffers. Dual pricing of diesel or raising the price of diesel to market rates is just not possible while maintaining the current tax collection schemes on diesel both the center and the state governments have. I think the government might even now go for some form of additional taxation on diesel car sales given that the alarm bells have started ringing regarding the fiscal situation and rating agencies are downgrading India's economy. I read somewhere that already the yields on bonds have started increasing.

I don't want to sound cynical since I myself own a diesel car but I predicted this situation in 2010 when the government announced deregulation of petrol. But I have very huge doubts about actually how many of privately owned passenger cars are eating up the diesel "subsidies". I simply don't think the numbers are so high that by just taxing them the government will be able to turn their balance sheet into green. Diesel passenger cars is the red herring this government uses for their flawed policies on taxes and many more.

Last edited by samarjitdhar : 26th April 2012 at 15:24.
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Old 26th April 2012, 16:14   #474
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Default re: Rationalising diesel prices*Update: 50p rise/month announced*

Quote:
Originally Posted by samarjitdhar View Post
I think the government missed a golden opportunity in this year's budget to boost revenue by not imposing additional taxes on diesel passenger cars. In my opinion that could have been a clean way as much as possible to recoup some of the reduced tax intake on diesel that the government suffers. Dual pricing of diesel or raising the price of diesel to market rates is just not possible while maintaining the current tax collection schemes on diesel both the center and the state governments have. I think the government might even now go for some form of additional taxation on diesel car sales given that the alarm bells have started ringing regarding the fiscal situation and rating agencies are downgrading India's economy. I read somewhere that already the yields on bonds have started increasing.

I don't want to sound cynical since I myself own a diesel car but I predicted this situation in 2010 when the government announced deregulation of petrol. But I have very huge doubts about actually how many of privately owned passenger cars are eating up the diesel "subsidies". I simply don't think the numbers are so high that by just taxing them the government will be able to turn their balance sheet into green. Diesel passenger cars is the red herring this government uses for their flawed policies on taxes and many more.
Additional taxes on diesel passenger cars will not help much. The diesel passenger cars accounts for roughly 1-2% of the total diesel consumption in India (please correct me if I am wrong). Trucks, buses, rail engines, power generators consume far greater amount of diesel.

Also, if diesel car provides better fuel efficiency, why discourage them from buying it, already they are 1-1.3L pricier than their petrol siblings.
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Old 26th April 2012, 18:20   #475
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Default re: Rationalising diesel prices*Update: 50p rise/month announced*

Quote:
Originally Posted by Optimus7 View Post
Additional taxes on diesel passenger cars will not help much. The diesel passenger cars accounts for roughly 1-2% of the total diesel consumption in India (please correct me if I am wrong). Trucks, buses, rail engines, power generators consume far greater amount of diesel.

Also, if diesel car provides better fuel efficiency, why discourage them from buying it, already they are 1-1.3L pricier than their petrol siblings.
The subsidy on diesel is not meant for private vehicles and hence any premium that is available from the customer which is a resultant of this subsidy should ideally be pocketed by the government.

I have no idea if putting a diesel car in a customers hands costs the company more than putting a petrol one. Are Diesels and Petrol vehicles prices similarly in countries where diesel and petrol prices are left to free play of the market?
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Old 26th April 2012, 21:36   #476
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Default re: Rationalising diesel prices*Update: 50p rise/month announced*

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cowardly Lion View Post
The subsidy on diesel is not meant for private vehicles and hence any premium that is available from the customer which is a resultant of this subsidy should ideally be pocketed by the government.
I don't think there is any explicit rule or law like this and the entire concept of "subsidy" is a total fallacy. I am not sure why even after so many informative threads and posts on TBHP this theory is now like that zombie which refuses to die. A reflection of how well the government has brainwashed its citizens through the media.
The government first taxes the hell out of an essential commodity and then when it becomes too expensive for end users, it pays some money indirectly to the end user to buy it. Now instead of compensating the users individually they do it in a utterly stupid way by compensating the OMCs instead and asking them to sell the commodity at a lower price. This is for obvious reasons because corruption in the government is entrenched in so many levels that they are simply clueless about how to solve this riddle and provide the "subsidy" to the right persons. Diesel car owners don't just buy a diesel car just for the reason that diesel costs less than petrol but diesel cars also have better FE as well as nowadays for the turbo boost many cars come with. If I were to run my sedan on petrol my FE would never be above 7 or 8 in the kind of traffic I drive. I get 12 or 13 instead. I cannot be held responsible for the government's poor planning and foresight for making diesel cheaper than petrol.
Also remember that the government's share of excise and VAT on diesel is very low. It is the states actually collecting all the taxes on diesel and each state has different amount of taxation. So even if the center stops collecting excise and VAT to the tune of about Rs 3 it will be much bigger problem to solve with the state taxes in play. BTW why should the central government provide "subsidy" to compensate for taxes collected by states? I think the center can call the bluff of all the regional parties by saying its the states who are making diesel expensive for the common man.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cowardly Lion View Post
I have no idea if putting a diesel car in a customers hands costs the company more than putting a petrol one. Are Diesels and Petrol vehicles prices similarly in countries where diesel and petrol prices are left to free play of the market?
Modern diesel engines are more expensive to build as well as the overall assembly to keep NVH levels under control incurs more costs. One of the reasons they are a little more expensive. But I do think the car companies are also collecting some premium under this guise.

Last edited by samarjitdhar : 26th April 2012 at 21:37.
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Old 26th April 2012, 21:40   #477
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Default re: Rationalising diesel prices*Update: 50p rise/month announced*

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cowardly Lion View Post
The subsidy on diesel is not meant for private vehicles and hence any premium that is available from the customer which is a resultant of this subsidy should ideally be pocketed by the government.

I have no idea if putting a diesel car in a customers hands costs the company more than putting a petrol one. Are Diesels and Petrol vehicles prices similarly in countries where diesel and petrol prices are left to free play of the market?
yes, the subsidy on diesel is not meant for individual consumer. It should be restricted for public transports, truck and agriculture needs, but it is not an easy thing to enforce. Even if it was enforced it will not be enough to meet the governements needs, since the % of consumption of diesel by individuals is very negligible.

I am pretty certain that manufacturing a diesel car will cost more than a petrol one, in any country. But the price difference will not be as high as it is in India.
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Old 26th April 2012, 22:05   #478
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Default re: Rationalising diesel prices*Update: 50p rise/month announced*

Quote:
Originally Posted by samarjitdhar View Post
I don't think there is any explicit rule or law like this and the entire concept of "subsidy" is a total fallacy. I am not sure why even after so many informative threads and posts on TBHP this theory is now like that zombie which refuses to die. A reflection of how well the government has brainwashed its citizens through the media.
The government first taxes the hell out of an essential commodity and then when it becomes too expensive for end users, it pays some money indirectly to the end user to buy it. Now instead of compensating the users individually they do it in a utterly stupid way by compensating the OMCs instead and asking them to sell the commodity at a lower price. This is for obvious reasons because corruption in the government is entrenched in so many levels that they are simply clueless about how to solve this riddle and provide the "subsidy" to the right persons. Diesel car owners don't just buy a diesel car just for the reason that diesel costs less than petrol but diesel cars also have better FE as well as nowadays for the turbo boost many cars come with. If I were to run my sedan on petrol my FE would never be above 7 or 8 in the kind of traffic I drive. I get 12 or 13 instead. I cannot be held responsible for the government's poor planning and foresight for making diesel cheaper than petrol.
Also remember that the government's share of excise and VAT on diesel is very low. It is the states actually collecting all the taxes on diesel and each state has different amount of taxation. So even if the center stops collecting excise and VAT to the tune of about Rs 3 it will be much bigger problem to solve with the state taxes in play. BTW why should the central government provide "subsidy" to compensate for taxes collected by states? I think the center can call the bluff of all the regional parties by saying its the states who are making diesel expensive for the common man.

Modern diesel engines are more expensive to build as well as the overall assembly to keep NVH levels under control incurs more costs. One of the reasons they are a little more expensive. But I do think the car companies are also collecting some premium under this guise.

Hi Samarjit, I called it a 'subsidy' for the sake of convenience. I am fully aware and have mentioned the same in a previous post that the subsidy could well be termed notional.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Optimus7 View Post
yes, the subsidy on diesel is not meant for individual consumer. It should be restricted for public transports, truck and agriculture needs, but it is not an easy thing to enforce. Even if it was enforced it will not be enough to meet the governements needs, since the % of consumption of diesel by individuals is very negligible.

I am pretty certain that manufacturing a diesel car will cost more than a petrol one, in any country. But the price difference will not be as high as it is in India.
I would also have thought similarly but prima facie it seems that it is not so. I did a small apples to apples comparison of one model of Ford being sold in the UK with the following results -

Ford focus

1.6 TDCi 115 PS (DPF) S5, 6 Speed – GBP 18,795

1.6T 150 PS EcoBoost S5, 6 Speed – GBP 19,950

The link where i did the comparison -

Configure your car

I am not saying that this comparison proves anything conclusively. Lets all do some more research and post the results and hopefully we can raise our collective awareness on this forum.
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Old 27th April 2012, 00:00   #479
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Default re: Rationalising diesel prices*Update: 50p rise/month announced*

@Optimus7; There is a page on facebook quoting that base price of 1L of Petrol is INR 16.50/-. Even accepting your value that's more than 50% tax. Also many super rich pay their taxes. They also contribute a lot to charity to avoid taxed. And they do a lot for the country by creating jobs, manufacturing, innovation, etc. Actually it is the poor who never pay taxes. How many farmers do you know who pay income taxes? and 80% of India's population is farmer.
@samarjitdhar; I agree govt. missed a golden opportunity. They should have increased taxes to 120%. Who then would buy a diesel swift or figo for 12 Lakhs? We can kill the auto companies and have a few million people off work, including auto majors and component suppliers. We are already paying about 33% taxes on small passenger hatches (assuming no tax on CSD).
@cowardly lion; Diesel used for personal transportation should not be subsidized, but diesel used for commercial enterprises like truck fleets, intercity buses, illegal electric fences, etc. should be subsidized?
India is just socialist not yet communist.
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Old 27th April 2012, 10:52   #480
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Default re: Rationalising diesel prices*Update: 50p rise/month announced*

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Originally Posted by Cowardly Lion View Post
Hi Samarjit, I called it a 'subsidy' for the sake of convenience. I am fully aware and have mentioned the same in a previous post that the subsidy could well be termed notional.
Its interesting actually. The FM has now started questioning the oil ministry about what magic calculations do the OMCs use to arrive at the under recoveries figure. Currently the oil companies claim that with the current prices of diesel they are losing at least Rs 14 a liter. Now we all now that the central excise and taxes come to Rs 3 for a liter and I just checked that based on what the states collect as taxes on diesel the average should be Rs 6 per liter for state taxes taking into account the varying level of taxation in each state. So ideally the cost of diesel per liter should be around Rs 44 taking into account dealer commission, which is incidentally the current rate in the market. Why do the OMCs claim an under recovery of Rs 14 on sales per liter of diesel? Am I missing something here? It needs a good RTI activist to get to the bottom of this hocus pocus since these are public sector companies and we have a right to know.

Quote:
Originally Posted by wildsdi5530 View Post
@samarjitdhar; I agree govt. missed a golden opportunity. They should have increased taxes to 120%. Who then would buy a diesel swift or figo for 12 Lakhs? We can kill the auto companies and have a few million people off work, including auto majors and component suppliers. We are already paying about 33% taxes on small passenger hatches (assuming no tax on CSD).
Well not really. Don't think the Swifts and the Figos would cost 12 lakhs with an additional tax of Rs 50-80K, that is a pretty wild exaggeration . Plus if the diesel car becomes financially unreachable for a car buyer given the cost difference and usage they would go for a petrol car thereby lessening the burden of diesel consumption. Car companies would then simply switch to producing more petrol ones. Killing the car companies? You gotta be kidding.

Quote:
Originally Posted by wildsdi5530 View Post
India is just socialist not yet communist.
I have not claimed it is communist though it is still in some senses as the government is still in charge of running some businesses though its a great leverage to level the playing field against out of control capitalism. The problem is unlike the European nations which are heavily socialist we simply lack planning and are too corrupt to the hilt to get the biggest bang for the buck spent on socialism. Proper implementation would actually help to bring down the amount of subsidies in the long run but frankly all this is

EDIT: And this tug of war Reduce petrol tax by Rs 6 per litre: Oil Ministry - The Economic Times will continue more fiercely now given the ratings downgrade India received on account of its deficit figures. If the prices rise brace for a hike of Rs 9.65 to Rs 13 a liter on petrol.

Last edited by samarjitdhar : 27th April 2012 at 11:12.
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