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Old 27th April 2012, 17:54   #496
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Default re: Rationalising diesel prices*Update: 50p rise/month announced*

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Originally Posted by samarjitdhar View Post
Quite aptly put. In that case, everybody who can should forego the subsidy provided on each LPG cylinder which is actually a true subsidy. Given that we probably use a maximum of 12 cylinders in a year on an average, shelling out Rs 3600 extra in an year will not pinch the pockets of those who are getting decent salaries and can afford to own cars. Its just the cost maybe of one eat out/dinner. If the subsidy bill on LPG can be reduced the taxes on petrol and diesel can be reduced.
Hello Samarjitdhar,

Well made point. Appreciate. You have hit the Bulls eye. LPG Cylinders supplied to most citizens should not be subsidized. If people can spend Rs. 1,000 or more on one dinner or one movie, they can certainly pay Rs. 350 extra for a Cylinder of LPG per month.

I guess a Central Information source like PAN Card Number or Aadhar Card Number, etc should be used for all possible transactions. This will help Government in tracking a Citizen's purchasing power & provide Subsidies accordingly. But such things always remain a dream in this country.

I have heard of such Citizen's Cards in Singapore where every Income / Offense / Expense of a Citizen is recorded against a single Number.

Thanks,
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Old 27th April 2012, 18:12   #497
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Originally Posted by ninjatalli

+100 to that! Except for the word in bold. It ain't a subsidy, but just that the government is not able to tax (read:fleece) diesel users as much as it does the petrol users.

And if someone's wants to be so "ethical", then they might please not show HRA, not avail deduction under 80C/80CC, not opt for income tax benefits on house loan, etc etc. After all, their actual income without these deductions should be taxed accordingly right?

Ridiculous comparison, one would say. But so is the one being quoted in earlier posts!
15000 is the tax exempt limit for medical expenditure for any salaried chap. Tell me, does it make sense at these prices? Given that the middle classes pay 34% give or take by way of taxes and don't even have reasonable medical care or proper infrastructure to fall back on, why should people not take advantage of small things like Diesel subsidy?
I don't want to be 'holier than thou' and get into the ethics of the diesel subsidy. I simply couldn't care less. Till the government starts performing with the common tax payer in mind and till it becomes fully accountable to us, the electorate, I will continue in this vein.. I would much rather save the bucks and spend them on things that I want to buy or experience!
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Old 27th April 2012, 18:27   #498
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Default re: Rationalising diesel prices*Update: 50p rise/month announced*

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Originally Posted by shankar.balan View Post
I would much rather save the bucks and spend them on things that I want to buy or experience!
I agree with this point of view.
After all, why would I want to pay more to the authorities? So that they can buy more expensive SUVs to roam around in?
I think any politician in power must have enough money to buy his own car. Then why provide official cars?
In fact there should be a rule that any post holder in a government authority is mandated to use only public transport. In this way, the money spent on their travel will be automatically reduced and quality of public transport/ infrastructure will automatically improve.
If someone talks security, it should be ok for the said postholder to have as much security as the common man/ woman.
Time taken? If it is good enough for the common man, it should be good enough for the said postholder too.
Would like to hear/ discuss your opinions on this.
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Old 27th April 2012, 18:27   #499
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Default re: Rationalising diesel prices*Update: 50p rise/month announced*

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Originally Posted by shankar.balan View Post
15000 is the tax exempt limit for medical expenditure for any salaried chap. Tell me, does it make sense at these prices? Given that the middle classes pay 34% give or take by way of taxes and don't even have reasonable medical care or proper infrastructure to fall back on, why should people not take advantage of small things like Diesel subsidy?
I don't want to be 'holier than thou' and get into the ethics of the diesel subsidy. I simply couldn't care less.
+1. Even after paying so much taxes, look at the state of public healthcare. Unless one purchases health insurance, getting sick and landing up in any public hospital is a sure shot ticket to the afterlife .

On another note, I was looking at this http://ppac.org.in/writereaddata/Pri...20Products.pdf posted by antz.bin on his thread. Can some expert comment as to why the OMCs magically decide to reduce the price of diesel per liter charged to the dealer by deducting an under recovery? How is that value arrived at? Truth is sure stranger than fiction. I again think its high time the bluff of the OMCs is called sooner than later. Besides this I think the way successive governments have been flushing the Indian economy down the toilet playing the subsidy game and vote bank politics, our goose is going to get cooked pretty soon like that of Greece, Ireland, Portugal and Spain .

Last edited by samarjitdhar : 27th April 2012 at 18:29.
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Old 28th April 2012, 07:47   #500
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Default re: Rationalising diesel prices*Update: 50p rise/month announced*

Quote:
Originally Posted by shankar.balan View Post
15000 is the tax exempt limit for medical expenditure for any salaried chap. Tell me, does it make sense at these prices? Given that the middle classes pay 34% give or take by way of taxes and don't even have reasonable medical care or proper infrastructure to fall back on, why should people not take advantage of small things like Diesel subsidy?
I don't want to be 'holier than thou' and get into the ethics of the diesel subsidy. I simply couldn't care less. Till the government starts performing with the common tax payer in mind and till it becomes fully accountable to us, the electorate, I will continue in this vein.. I would much rather save the bucks and spend them on things that I want to buy or experience!
Also the conveyance is 800 per month which translates into 9600 per year. However even for a two wheeler this would be sufficient for half year. Wonder why the babus are so stupid to get this a bit higher to overall help the middle class. However, completely agree on the medical allowance which is absurd, either none of the family members should fall ill or raise the limit.
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Old 28th April 2012, 13:49   #501
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Default re: Rationalising diesel prices*Update: 50p rise/month announced*

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Originally Posted by selfdrive View Post
I agree with this point of view.
After all, why would I want to pay more to the authorities? So that they can buy more expensive SUVs to roam around in?
I think any politician in power must have enough money to buy his own car. Then why provide official cars?
In fact there should be a rule that any post holder in a government authority is mandated to use only public transport. In this way, the money spent on their travel will be automatically reduced and quality of public transport/ infrastructure will automatically improve.
If someone talks security, it should be ok for the said postholder to have as much security as the common man/ woman.
Time taken? If it is good enough for the common man, it should be good enough for the said postholder too.
Would like to hear/ discuss your opinions on this.
That is precisely what I was discussing with a friend last weekend. The government justify taxes to discourage use of limited fossil fuel but run up huge bills themselves , traveling in 10-12 car convoys, while our president runs 200 crore bills on foreign travel with family ( yeah, right - official work). So I was telling my friend, we as petrol heads love horse power and torque, we love V8s and high revs, but in practice we can only afford more sedate family sedans and single cylinder commuter bikes , spending far less on fuel than those high and mighty ones making the rules. So if they think we should be discouraged from using personal vehicles and use public transport, they should be first to use public transport. Then we will at least get fewer terrorist attacks - right now they need not bother since they are cocooned by personal security and private vehicle convoys escorted by police. Maybe the quality of public transport will improve only if government people are forced to use public transport.

They have the gall to call themselves public servants, when they live much more privileged, comfortable lives than most of India , they might not make much on paper, but live comparable lifestyles to CEOs and senior management. It's the public that's made the servant.


Back to subject:
What prices do we expect to see for diesel if this goes ahead ? The cat is out of the bag , so until it starts to approach petrol prices, diesel preference is here to stay. The difference in car pricing is made up in 3-4 years and diesel remains for efficient on per litre basis.
All this rationalising will not help anyone when the drain on economy is more due to wastage, inefficiency and scams. Should they decide to raise diesel prices, inflation will go up, the additional money collected will get channeled elsewhere and the deficit and deb will get worse. The more money a government receives, the more it wastes. This is almost an exception-less rule , based on whatever interactions I have with European/US nationals , their governments are pretty wasteful as well , though scams may contribute much less to that waste.

Last edited by Ricci : 28th April 2012 at 13:55.
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Old 28th April 2012, 14:24   #502
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Default re: Rationalising diesel prices*Update: 50p rise/month announced*

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Originally Posted by wildsdi5530 View Post
@Optimus7; There is a page on facebook quoting that base price of 1L of Petrol is INR 16.50/-. Even accepting your value that's more than 50% tax. Also many super rich pay their taxes. They also contribute a lot to charity to avoid taxed. And they do a lot for the country by creating jobs, manufacturing, innovation, etc. Actually it is the poor who never pay taxes. How many farmers do you know who pay income taxes? and 80% of India's population is farmer.
@samarjitdhar; I agree govt. missed a golden opportunity. They should have increased taxes to 120%. Who then would buy a diesel swift or figo for 12 Lakhs? We can kill the auto companies and have a few million people off work, including auto majors and component suppliers. We are already paying about 33% taxes on small passenger hatches (assuming no tax on CSD).
@cowardly lion; Diesel used for personal transportation should not be subsidized, but diesel used for commercial enterprises like truck fleets, intercity buses, illegal electric fences, etc. should be subsidized?
India is just socialist not yet communist.
SIR,

Increasing the tax on Diesel cars is not the solution for the loss suffered
by Govt on account of diesel. A man buying a Diesel Innova for 10 Lacs
won,t mind paying another 01 lacs since he can afford . Actually there
should be Duel pricing of Diesel . One for Tractors ,trucks, Public transport
buses and railways. I fail to understand why Diesel should be made availabe at same susided cost for a truck carring essential commodities
like vegetables / Milk etc and to a man driving a luxury car costing more
than 10 Lacs. Is it not a joke ? Why the hell the Govt suffer for the
pleasure men driving Diesel cars and their Drivers wasting Diesel by
keeping the Engine on for hours to enjoy Aircondition. Duel pricing
may lead to Black marketing even that can tolerated rather than
this kind waste of public money.

Regards,

ANANT
NAGPUR
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Old 28th April 2012, 14:28   #503
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Default re: Rationalising diesel prices*Update: 50p rise/month announced*

Common men use petrol, not diesel ( true, but not all the truth). After all, there are no diesel mopeds / bikes.

Tax on diesel seems to be reasonable. It is tax on petrol that is quite high.

High petrol prices encourage consumers to switch over to diesel. Which is sold at Rs. 15 less per litre which is again a burden on government / OMC.

High Auto LPG prices ( Rs.55 / litre ) force the users to use domestic LPG cylinders for their cars ( bi fuel ones), which again sets back Rs. 23 / cylinder to the Central Govt., Rs.570 /cylinder to the OMC. Domestic Gas costs Rs. 19 / litre. ( Calculated at 1 kg = 1.55 litres of LPG ; Rs. 420 / a cylinder of 14.2 kgs). It is too good a lure to ignore.

Bring retail prices of all the fuels into the vicinity of each other so as to pull the consumer from using diesel / domestic LPG and let the OMCs do business, not charity.

Last edited by simplyself : 28th April 2012 at 14:48.
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Old 28th April 2012, 19:21   #504
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Default re: Rationalising diesel prices*Update: 50p rise/month announced*

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Originally Posted by nkrishnap View Post
Also the conveyance is 800 per month which translates into 9600 per year.
This is the amount which is exempt from tax. Actual with the VI PC is Rs.3200+DA. Incidentally, House Rent Allowance is not linked to the DA!
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Old 29th April 2012, 00:00   #505
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Default re: Rationalising diesel prices*Update: 50p rise/month announced*

Quote:
Originally Posted by CLASSICCAR View Post
SIR,

Increasing the tax on Diesel cars is not the solution for the loss suffered
by Govt on account of diesel. A man buying a Diesel Innova for 10 Lacs
won,t mind paying another 01 lacs since he can afford . Actually there
should be Duel pricing of Diesel
. One for Tractors ,trucks, Public transport
buses and railways......... Duel pricing
may lead to Black marketing
even that can tolerated rather than
this kind waste of public money.

Regards,

ANANT
NAGPUR
Sir, you have explained your own point why dual pricing is not viable. If diesel is retailing at Rs.40/liter for one person and 70/liter for the other, who will mind spending more when he can get it in the black market at 50-55/liter? Even the pump attendants will start selling you subsidized diesel for a minor profit.

Regarding the issue of luxury car owners paying less for diesel, I'm sure they can shell out money but why? They are making money but paying taxes in that proportion. Then why discriminate against them? Making big money is not a crime, or is it?

Those making huge bucks through scams are given 4 security vehicles which burn fuel from the taxpayers money but someone who is earning money should pay more because he can pay. Not a good idea I believe.
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Old 29th April 2012, 07:59   #506
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Default re: Rationalising diesel prices*Update: 50p rise/month announced*

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Originally Posted by A M View Post
Regarding the issue of luxury car owners paying less for diesel, I'm sure they can shell out money but why? They are making money but paying taxes in that proportion. Then why discriminate against them? Making big money is not a crime, or is it?
Rather, I am in for everybody paying their fair share. A luxury diesel car owner paying less than a petrol bike owner does not make sense. It is not a crime to be rich, but neither is it to be poor.

All those who are complaining about all the scams as an excuse for "enjoying"(misusing) would have still misused it, even if A Raja was a saint. We just need a reason to do it. Those beat policemen going around the market asking for "hafta" too has his own excuses. Putting the burden of our own guilt on somebody else is just passing the blame.
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Old 29th April 2012, 10:01   #507
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Default re: Rationalising diesel prices*Update: 50p rise/month announced*

Now our meek Sardarji has also mentioned hiking the price of Diesel. Of course our Samajwadi MPs want to tax Diesel cars and not raise the price of Diesel. After all their SUVs so beloved to our former MoEF run on Diesel.
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Old 29th April 2012, 12:27   #508
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Default re: Rationalising diesel prices*Update: 50p rise/month announced*

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Rather, I am in for everybody paying their fair share. A luxury diesel car owner paying less than a petrol bike owner does not make sense. It is not a crime to be rich, but neither is it to be poor.

All those who are complaining about all the scams as an excuse for "enjoying"(misusing) would have still misused it, even if A Raja was a saint. We just need a reason to do it. Those beat policemen going around the market asking for "hafta" too has his own excuses. Putting the burden of our own guilt on somebody else is just passing the blame.
I think over the years the subjugation and disdain the politicians have shown towards us has converted most of our citizens into meek, numb and self deprecating beings who would like to find and correct all our own faults first and then sometime in the distant future might think of talking against the most corrupt ilk that have claimed ownership of our nation. Here is another example of blatant abuse of power and in your face attitude of power by politicians.

VIP vanity trumps citizens' security in Mumbai - The Times of India

Imagine the amount of fuel wasted to carry around security for these politicians most of whose names you have never even heard of before. I mean even a mosquito would find it insulting to bite some of these politicians on this list and they have the temerity to claim security that they do not deserve at such a high cost to the nation. If citizens use the unfair taxation and illogical pricing of essential commodities like diesel to their advantage to break the back of this corrupt band of robbers who have stolen our taxes since independence in the name of socialism, IMO there is nothing wrong. There is a saying in Hindi, "Lohe lohe ko kaatta hai" and I think its high time we as citizens stand our ground and use the law of the land to throw out these jokers once and for all and hope we can set the nation on the right path.
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Old 29th April 2012, 12:42   #509
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Default re: Rationalising diesel prices*Update: 50p rise/month announced*

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Originally Posted by samarjitdhar View Post
I think over the years the subjugation and disdain the politicians have shown towards us has converted most of our citizens into meek, numb and self deprecating beings who would like to find and correct all our own faults first and then sometime in the distant future might think of talking against the most corrupt ilk that have claimed ownership of our nation. Here is another example of blatant abuse of power and in your face attitude of power by politicians.
I see what you mean here. But, think for a moment, politicians are not a breed of it's own. They are a sample of the rest of us. We are equally cunning and corrupt. If Raja stole in crores, it is only because he could. We don't do that we don't have access to that much money. And we contribute whatever we can by bribing, avoiding taxes, buying from black market, appropriating subsidy etc. Then we complain about politicians, and when it comes to the time of voting, we vote for them based on caste, religion, region, and even those who organized riots only because they seem to represent the group we belong to. I say, start with yourself, before pointing fingers at others.

We have gone grossly OT, so would not be contributing to this anymore.
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Old 29th April 2012, 13:56   #510
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Default re: Rationalising diesel prices*Update: 50p rise/month announced*

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Originally Posted by civic-sense View Post
we contribute whatever we can by bribing, avoiding taxes, buying from black market, appropriating subsidy etc. Then we complain about politicians, and when it comes to the time of voting, we vote for them based on caste, religion, region, and even those who organized riots only because they seem to represent the group we belong to. I say, start with yourself, before pointing fingers at others.
Well about the rest I don't think the majority of our citizens voluntarily pay bribes or avoid taxes or buy from the black market for that matter. It is a matter of fact that every law abiding citizen including the rank poor are forced into such situations to do any of these things for basic survival. Be it getting access to a hospital bed or some life saving medicine, actually the list is endless.

I highlighted subsidy since it is in context because after heavily taxing diesel and then announcing a subsidy on the same the government plays the holier than thou attitude and we are readily buying into it. The funny part is a majority of the taxes on diesel is actually collected by the state governments, the center gets a very small portion barely enough to fund the other actual subsidies on kerosene on LPG. I for one am ready to pay the full rate of LPG on condition that one there are no taxes on it and two all politicians and bureaucrats also agree to forego the subsidy they receive on LPG. If we can reduce a majority of the LPG subsidy we can easily bring down the price of petrol, believe me, if you can go check the finance and oil ministries balance sheets. I also believe that the government should aggressively promote alternative fuel cars specially purely electric ones like the Leaf or the Prius allowing one to manage their city commutes solely on electricity. Instead the government will happily impose duties of 100-150% on those cars demonstrating their heavily retrograde mindsets. They know that affordable electric cars under 5 lacs used by a majority of city users will cause mayhem to their revenue collections because a drastic reduction in use of petrol will show an equally drastic reduction of taxes collected. That is the reason all governments in India will fight tooth and nail against electric cars.

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Originally Posted by civic-sense View Post
Then we complain about politicians, and when it comes to the time of voting, we vote for them based on caste, religion, region, and even those who organized riots only because they seem to represent the group we belong to. I say, start with yourself, before pointing fingers at others.

We have gone grossly OT, so would not be contributing to this anymore.
I certainly neither want to discuss politics here nor my personal voting preferences or even how one should vote because that is seriously .

Last edited by samarjitdhar : 29th April 2012 at 13:59.
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