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Old 28th May 2012, 14:21   #676
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Default re: Rationalising diesel prices*Update: 50p rise/month announced*

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Originally Posted by Turbokick View Post
How about banning diesel cars in India?
That may solve the problem.
Are you by any means associated with the Centre for Science & Environment. They tried to ban Diesel cars just before the Indica came out. The rumour had it that they were backed by THE auto major.

Let me give a counter argument, Diesel cars are more efficient than their Petrol cousins (by my cars are Petrol, but that is a different matter) so why not ban Petrol cars instead. If the Govt gets its knickers in a twist, then let them try and fix it.
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Old 28th May 2012, 17:54   #677
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Originally Posted by sgiitk View Post
Are you by any means associated with the Centre for Science & Environment. They tried to ban Diesel cars just before the Indica came out. The rumour had it that they were backed by THE auto major.

Let me give a counter argument, Diesel cars are more efficient than their Petrol cousins (by my cars are Petrol, but that is a different matter) so why not ban Petrol cars instead. If the Govt gets its knickers in a twist, then let them try and fix it.
I own a diesel car and that too recently.
Obviously my words were more sarcastic
The whole debate is heading towards a point that the diesel car owners and more importantly the luxury car buyers are the biggest culprit behind the falling economy.

Long term program needs to planned.
- To keep the inflation under check.
- To keep the transportation/running cost as economical as possible.


We anyhow are running short of petrolum very fast and country like India which has no plans and views (till now) to counter this problem will be the worst sufferers.
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Old 29th May 2012, 08:28   #678
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Default re: Rationalising diesel prices*Update: 50p rise/month announced*

Jaipal Reddy seeks higher duty on diesel cars -

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NEW DELHI: Finding it difficult to raise diesel prices as it may fuel inflation, the finance ministry is considering a proposal to raise excise duty on diesel cars to discourage people from buying cars that run on heavily subsidized fuel.

........
Rajan
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Old 29th May 2012, 09:37   #679
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Default re: Rationalising diesel prices*Update: 50p rise/month announced*

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Originally Posted by PatchyBoy View Post
The Kirit Parikh recommendations seem to be resurrected ever so often. By all accounts the diesel usage of passenger cars/SUVs is minuscule, It will become even more insignificant if they force all politicians to stop moving in caravans of SUVs.
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Old 29th May 2012, 10:41   #680
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Default re: Rationalising diesel prices*Update: 50p rise/month announced*

I feel hiking duty on Diesel Passenger Car is not the final solution. Even if People still buy less Diesel Cars, but the ones already on roads will continue consuming Diesel at subsidized Price.

Infact I was listening to SIAM India - Society of Indian Automobile Manufacturers' spoke person yesterday & Car Manufacturers are also opposing this hike in duties. They too are suggesting Rationalization of Diesel Prices. In their opinon, even a Re. 1 hike in Diesel Price will generate Rs. 8,000 Crores of additional revenue, which can significantly reduce the Subsidy burden.

Coming to SIAM's opposition to duty on Diesel Cars, their position is well understood, because all the Car Manufactuers in India are currently busy extending their Diesel Car offering. Any hike in duty on Diesel Cars will mean that their planning will go for a toss.

Government is making things difficult for everyone - Itself, Car Manufactueres, Fuel (Petrol) Consumers & Tax Payers.

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Old 29th May 2012, 11:33   #681
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Default re: Rationalising diesel prices*Update: 50p rise/month announced*

I have a question as to how the government arrives at the under recovery figure of Rs 67000 crore for diesel. Here is this rough calculation again for reference.

Monthly retail sales figures (approximate)
Rationalising diesel prices. *Update: Now Deregulated*-revbrkup.jpg

So based on this rough estimates, the states get around Rs 37000 crore in taxes annually which is compensated by the center as part of this under recovery amount paid to the oil companies. The center roughly collects Rs 3 per liter of diesel for its own kitty. That makes it about Rs 12000 crore a year. The total is around Rs 49000-50000 crore annually. So for which expense does the additional Rs 17000 crore? Even though my calculations are rough, it is nowhere so inaccurate that it would be off by Rs 17000 crore. Here lies the mystery. Also can someone shed some light as to how do these "industries" including the ones owning the mobile towers running on diesel procure the diesel? Do they buy it from retail outlets or directly from the OMC depots?

Last edited by samarjitdhar : 29th May 2012 at 11:35.
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Old 29th May 2012, 11:49   #682
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Default re: Rationalising diesel prices*Update: 50p rise/month announced*

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Originally Posted by PatchyBoy View Post
Dont know if there is any credibility to this at all. More than anything this results in increased sales of diesel cars for short term and no action happening anyways. The quality of taboloid journalism is appaling. Feels as if car companies plant questions through journalists and than write articles to boost sales.
If you see the video, the Minister is asked about possibility of increasing diesel prices, he refuses. Than he is asked about the proposal to raise taxes on diesel cars. He says, yes thats something we had tabled. It is a possibility we can explore. Now where does it say its happening. Its like asking a leading question and than making news out of it. If it had to happen it had to happen in the budget.
In addition you cant just have govt making rules on the fly. What about millions of FI invested in setting up diesel plants by all automobile manufacturers? I am afraid after the Vodafone debacle, the FI's cant afford another policy debacle, than no one would know what happens tomorrow and investors would refrain from investing in India.
Those petrolheads advocating levies on deisel vehicles, its time to take a step back and come out of personal greviances. Yes prices have gone high on petrol, yes we have all taken a huge hit on depreciation of petrol cars, but the reality is that personal cars constitute less few % of the diesel subsidy bill, therefore its not like you are going to reduce deficit by hiking duty on diesel car. Its time you think of greater good and let the policy making be stable so that companies that made informed decisions to setup deisel plants are not penalized.
Policy making on the fly would result in our currency going for a toss. Than no matter what you do, all things including not just petrol, but even your job would be at stake!
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Old 29th May 2012, 12:10   #683
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Default re: Rationalising diesel prices*Update: 50p rise/month announced*

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Originally Posted by PatchyBoy View Post
Quite frankly, this is market manipulation underway by Jaipal and media in tandem. This impending hike of excise duty on diesel cars have been threatened since last 2 years. This duty hike hangs like damocles sword that never drops.

the only people to gain from this are the diesel engine/car/truck manufacturing lobby.
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Old 29th May 2012, 12:21   #684
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Default re: Rationalising diesel prices*Update: 50p rise/month announced*

Looking at the larger picture, subsidised diesel is used in a vareity of applications that were not meant to be. Luxury diesel personal vehicles is just one of them and is not the major contributor to the misuse by any stretch of imagination, but misuse nevertheless.

I get a feeling that this thread seems to put the blame squarely on diesel car owners in the forum and is turning into a debate of petrol cars Vs diesel cars. Unfortunately, the government also seems to be of the same opinion by seeking higher duty on diesel cars.

When diesel cars contribute to a minsicule percentage of this misuse, why single them out for penalties, totally turning a blind eye to the other and much larger consumers of subsidised diesel?

Rajan

EDIT: I have a petrol garage, by choice. No patriotism or other fancy words involved

Last edited by PatchyBoy : 29th May 2012 at 12:41.
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Old 29th May 2012, 12:30   #685
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Default re: Rationalising diesel prices*Update: 50p rise/month announced*

I don't think diesel users should get defensive, I don't think anyone wants to single them out. Obviously if diesel is cheaper folks will go for that, that's inevitable and everyone has that choice.

But that is different from defending the diesel subsidy. I don't see how anyone can afford to buy a car, any car for personal use can justify a subsidy. It creates a disparity and imbalance in prices and the economy in general with petrol prices now hitting the roof.

Diesel users are obviously not be blame but at the same time the subsidy cannot be defended. Either let's have market prices, or lets have better directed subsidies, polices to those who actually need them.
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Old 29th May 2012, 12:43   #686
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Default re: Rationalising diesel prices*Update: 50p rise/month announced*

What revenue loss?
What revenue loss this Govt is talking of?
How does this compare with 1.76 lac crore scam of 2G?
Or even bigger but somehow covered Coalgate scam?

They want to keep their incomes intact and try to blow the trumpet of losses by PSU in my face.

And to people who bought Petrol cars instead of Diesel, well it was you mistake to have faith on Govt competency. I trusted the incompetency of the Govt.

My faith on utter greedy and immoral character of our policy makers says that nothing will happen till 2014.
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Old 29th May 2012, 12:47   #687
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Default re: Rationalising diesel prices*Update: 50p rise/month announced*

Quote:
Originally Posted by samarjitdhar View Post
Also can someone shed some light as to how do these "industries" including the ones owning the mobile towers running on diesel procure the diesel? Do they buy it from retail outlets or directly from the OMC depots?
Dunno about the rest of the industries, but can shed light on the mobile towers - known as passive infrastructure organisations. As of now the lead player is called as Indus Towers which has a market share of close to 60-70% of all towers in India.

There is no possible way they get it from retails owners. Alll the OMC have a key account manager for each tower company and specificallly for each circle/state. Ironically it is quite amusing how people compare diesel car owners using diesel in quantity as compared to these organisations. Just for information, the above mentioned company stands in the top three diesel consumption organisations, behind Railways (and one more org).



Quote:
Originally Posted by raul View Post
I don't think diesel users should get defensive, I don't think anyone wants to single them out. Obviously if diesel is cheaper folks will go for that, that's inevitable and everyone has that choice.

But that is different from defending the diesel subsidy. I don't see how anyone can afford to buy a car, any car for personal use can justify a subsidy. It creates a disparity and imbalance in prices and the economy in general with petrol prices now hitting the roof.

Diesel users are obviously not be blame but at the same time the subsidy cannot be defended. Either let's have market prices, or lets have better directed subsidies, polices to those who actually need them.
You are clearly not getting the point then. We are not defending the "subsidy". We are questioning the basis of it. We are doubting the existance of the "subsidy" (wrt to diesel). As for reduced price by the OMC, if there is a gap (wrt market prices), we are all game for it. That is what de-regulation is supposed to be.

What we are not agreeing is to have a similar tax structure for diesel like petrol. No sir, not at all. We are infact questioning the need for the tax structure. And that has nothing to do whether we can afford a car or anything in that order.


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Originally Posted by PatchyBoy View Post
Looking at the larger picture, subsidised diesel is used in a vareity of applications that were not meant to be. Luxury diesel personal vehicles is just one of them and is not the major contributor to the misuse by any stretch of imagination, but misuse nevertheless.

I get a feeling that this thread seems to put the blame squarely on diesel car owners in the forum and is turning into a debate of petrol cars Vs diesel cars. Unfortunately, the government also seems to be of the same opinion by seeking higher duty on diesel cars.

When diesel cars contribute to a minsicule percentage of this misuse, why single them out for penalties, totally turning a blind eye to the other and much larger consumers of subsidised diesel?

Rajan
Lovely viewpoint. If only all petrolheads crying "foul" on the diesel-petrol gap would understand this.
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Old 29th May 2012, 13:39   #688
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Post re: Rationalising diesel prices*Update: 50p rise/month announced*

Quote:
Originally Posted by PatchyBoy View Post
...
When diesel cars contribute to a minsicule percentage of this misuse, why single them out for penalties, totally turning a blind eye to the other and much larger consumers of subsidised diesel?
...
First, 15% (or even 5%) is not miniscule.

Let us try to categorize the diesel users:
First group, diesel cars, try to catch lower operating costs (nothing to write new here!) at high capex.
Second group, unspoken, large consuming group is telecom towers. TRAI has passed a regulation that by 2015, 50% urban and 30% rural would have to be alternate energy (solar) powered, which means this group is addressed at least in paper.
Third Group, malls & industrial consumers use diesel partly (or wholly?) because of unreliable power supply. Addressing that is a separate topic (would be shooting Govt all over !).
Fourth group, intended one, is with transport (road and rail) & agriculture, use it as they are intended to use it.

Of the large misuse, only diesel cars group is addressable / identify-able and only here, such discrimination is enforce-able. Further more, this being common people, form the country perception, etc. So, this noise is not without reason! Thats is probably the reason why diesel cars are chased. Of course, diesel car is the aam-aadmi and pushed to the ends with no option !

(That said, I don't think the forum opposes diesel cars but subsidies a big yes!).

PS: I am not in favor subsidy / discriminating any fuel and it is better to leave it to market to find its balance (than let the vote-minded morons deciding which section they want to woo!).

Last edited by babu.sundaram : 29th May 2012 at 13:40. Reason: minor correction
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Old 29th May 2012, 13:43   #689
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Default re: Rationalising diesel prices*Update: 50p rise/month announced*

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Originally Posted by raul View Post
Diesel users are obviously not be blame but at the same time the subsidy cannot be defended. Either let's have market prices, or lets have better directed subsidies, polices to those who actually need them.
The subsidy is in fact a money transfer from the center to the states indirectly through the oil companies. I have explained how this shindig works in my previous posts. The states are reaping the benefits of this so called diesel subsidy. Of late I think why not dare the oil companies to remove all subsidies for diesel. I am sure given the sensitive nature of the state governments and their populist approaches, they will immediately withdraw the taxes they impose on the retail sales of diesel. Maybe something good will come out of it that the states will finally shut off the budgets of useless projects and be more wise in spending the money they earn. Right now all of it is free hence they don't care at all. The net result would be that the diesel prices will remain at the current levels .

Quote:
Originally Posted by ninjatalli View Post
Dunno about the rest of the industries, but can shed light on the mobile towers - known as passive infrastructure organisations. As of now the lead player is called as Indus Towers which has a market share of close to 60-70% of all towers in India.

There is no possible way they get it from retails owners. Alll the OMC have a key account manager for each tower company and specificallly for each circle/state. Ironically it is quite amusing how people compare diesel car owners using diesel in quantity as compared to these organisations. Just for information, the above mentioned company stands in the top three diesel consumption organisations, behind Railways (and one more org).
Why not ask Indus Towers to buy diesel at the market rate if they are purchasing directly from the OMCs? I am a bit intrigued by the amount being used by these top three consumers. It might be well be that these three biggies who purchase from the OMCs directly account for the rest of the Rs 17000 crore under-recovery since their sales would be off the retail numbers submitted by the OMCs. On the other hand I am sure the retailers sell to some of the small scale industries relying on diesel. Not sure though.

Last edited by samarjitdhar : 29th May 2012 at 13:44.
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Old 29th May 2012, 14:05   #690
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Default re: Rationalising diesel prices*Update: 50p rise/month announced*

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Originally Posted by babu.sundaram View Post
First, 15% (or even 5%) is not miniscule.
What percentage are we talking about here? Percentage of diesel private cars? Percentage of diesel consumed by these cars?

Rajan
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