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Old 30th May 2012, 11:29   #706
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Default re: Rationalising diesel prices*Update: 50p rise/month announced*

If the passenger segment of diesel cars consumes only 1% or so of the diesel, how does playing around with them help. At least I do not understand the logic.

If diesel price is rationalised then this (insignificant) market will automatically decline, and we will save a lot of unproductive 'so called' subsidies. I may add again given the efficiency of our system Every rupee in indirect taxes, costs us at least three in these taxes. Let them give the money directly into the banks of the poor. After all this was one of the reasons for the Aadhar exercise. I will say keep the concessional excise if you must, but gradually do away with the subsidy.
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Old 30th May 2012, 12:01   #707
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Default re: Rationalising diesel prices*Update: 50p rise/month announced*

Read this gentlemen : Lifting diesel subsidy: good idea, terrible timing | Firstpost
Quote:
Passenger cars account for 15 percent of diesel consumption in India, making this segment the second-largest consumer of the fuel. Trucks are the largest consumer, accounting for 37 percent. Industry accounts for another 10 percent; buses, another 12 percent; and the Railways, about six percent.
And I read somewhere that more than 50% of the petroleum products in India are consumed by the transport sector. Industrial sector consumes only 14%.

I'm not saying that Govt. should give subsidised diesel to the companies but if you're trying establish that the passenger cars here don't consume diesel at all, I'm afraid you're trying to draw lines on water.

Quote:
of the 25 lakh passenger vehicles sold in India, nearly nine lakh are diesel cars. Of these, more than one-third are small cars such as Indica, Swift and Figo.
Source TOI.
How many diesel cars are there, how much diesel they will consume on average and what would be the loss to the Govt./oil companies at a rate of Rs.15/litre. Just use common sense. I can tell you, they loot a v.decent amount of money every day.

Passenger cars may not be the only consumer of diesel but they're definitely one of the largest (based on what I read).
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Old 30th May 2012, 12:30   #708
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Default re: Rationalising diesel prices*Update: 50p rise/month announced*

Quote:
Originally Posted by wilful View Post
Looks like the higher excise duty on diesel cars talked about for so long may finally become a reality. A flat Rs.80000/- across the board may be rather unfair. I hope they think of a slab system.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jignesh View Post
But what you have said is correct - slab system. even if duty on Diesel Cars is increased, it should be in slabs, such that Luxury Car pays the most tax & Small Diesel Cars pays the lowest tax.
If this proposal is in tandem with keeping diesel prices deregulated, it is only fair to expect this should be applied to all diesel cars and not only for new cars. Correct?

Quote:
Originally Posted by fast&furious View Post
How many diesel cars are there, how much diesel they will consume on average and what would be the loss to the Govt./oil companies at a rate of Rs.15/litre. Just use common sense. I can tell you, they loot a v.decent amount of money every day.
To be honest, loot is a harsh word to be used for these people. Maybe it is more applicable for some white clothed people who dont pay at all for their diesel from their pockets. It is just a subsidy that they are availing as all of us do with LPG for example. I dont think we would call that as loot now. would we?
I am not sure who used that word first. I havent clicked on the link you provided partly out of laziness but more out of saturation for this topic.
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Old 30th May 2012, 12:45   #709
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Default re: Rationalising diesel prices*Update: 50p rise/month announced*

Ya I know it's a bit harsh but I was extremely angry to see the manner in which some friends here consider diesel consumption by the transport sector. "It's nothing" they say.

And IMO when people try to get what they don't deserve, it can be considered as looting . Raise the price of LPG, Govt. Give subsidy to people below poverty line ie.to those who deserve it. Nothing will go upside down if they raise the price by Rs.50 as most nuclear families wont need more than one cylinder per month (in fact, they wont get more than 1/month in the present situation).
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Old 30th May 2012, 12:57   #710
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Default re: Rationalising diesel prices*Update: 50p rise/month announced*

Quote:
Originally Posted by selfdrive View Post
If this proposal is in tandem with keeping diesel prices deregulated, it is only fair to expect this should be applied to all diesel cars and not only for new cars. Correct?
Hello Selfdrive,

You have hit the bulls eye. That why should only new Diesel Car buyers be panelised? If any additional duty is imposed on Diesel Passenger Cars then it should be for all the Cars on roads & not only for new ones.

But the problem is that, after mentioning the above, we will be branded as People against Diesel Car Owners.

But jokes apart, here is what I posted in "Petrol Price hikes by Rs. 7.5" thread on T-BHP today morning.

Quote:
HPCL's Forth Quater Profit: Rs. 4,631 crore (312% YOY growth)
IOC's Forth Quarter Profit: Rs. 12,670 crore (229% YOY Growth)

BPCL's Forth Quarter Profit: Rs. 3,963 crore (202% YOY Growth)
ONGC's Forth Quarter Profit: Rs. 5,644 crore (102% YOY Growth)

Is this not surprising? Oil marketing Companies has posted alteast double Profit after Tax figures as compared to last year.

Where have all the losses gone?
Why not even a single Oil marketing is company making losses?
Before the Petrol Price hike, they were literally crying stating that they do not have Cash to buy further crude & they will have to close down the business due to mounting losses.

How come a company making Profit after Tax of Rs. 4,000 Crore talk of losses & close-down?
Unquote

Does the above fact does not seem surprising, if the Oil Marketing Companes are really making huge loses on Sales of Petroleum Products & from where the above robust Quarter 4 profit figures have cropped up from?

Thanks,
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Old 30th May 2012, 13:25   #711
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Default re: Rationalising diesel prices*Update: 50p rise/month announced*

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jignesh View Post
But the problem is that, after mentioning the above, we will be branded as People against Diesel Car Owners.
If you post out here focussing only one segment/section (i.e. diesel cars), you are bound to get reverts like that. If I remember correctly, I had commented that specifically after a few posts from your end focussing only on diesel cars, without keeping in the general picture.

Having said that I must agree, you had clarified your stance in your continuing posts. So lets end this here.


Quote:
Quote:
HPCL's Forth Quater Profit: Rs. 4,631 crore (312% YOY growth)
IOC's Forth Quarter Profit: Rs. 12,670 crore (229% YOY Growth)
BPCL's Forth Quarter Profit: Rs. 3,963 crore (202% YOY Growth)
ONGC's Forth Quarter Profit: Rs. 5,644 crore (102% YOY Growth)

Is this not surprising? Oil marketing Companies has posted alteast double Profit after Tax figures as compared to last year.

Where have all the losses gone?
Why not even a single Oil marketing is company making losses?
Before the Petrol Price hike, they were literally crying stating that they do not have Cash to buy further crude & they will have to close down the business due to mounting losses.

How come a company making Profit after Tax of Rs. 4,000 Crore talk of losses & close-down?
Unquote

Does the above fact does not seem surprising, if the Oil Marketing Companes are really making huge loses on Sales of Petroleum Products & from where the above robust Quarter 4 profit figures have cropped up from?

Thanks,
+1 to that. Plus the FB link @patchboy had posted a few pages back spoke quite a lot on the same matter. Quite insightful points were made in that note.

Quote:
Originally Posted by fast&furious View Post
Ya I know it's a bit harsh but I was extremely angry to see the manner in which some friends here consider diesel consumption by the transport sector. "It's nothing" they say.
Well, when you use conflicting sources (for e.g. TOI - not at all a reliable source) and draw conclusions on facts which are already discussed and considered dubious, you are bound to get such responses.

Infact @patchboy has shared such an excellent breakup-analysis on the previous page, which actually validates a lot of what all of us have been discussing, and yet it's gone un-noticed.

And please do share, who said "Its' nothing". The generic point that @sgiitk (and others) have clarified above is the other segments might have a bigger say in the government's decisions (than the private diesel car segment) and a far higher percentage (99% instead of 85%) and hence the current situation.

So please mind your words when you use words like "looting" on a general basis. Let's keep the discussion on a sane level with amicable views.

Last edited by ninjatalli : 30th May 2012 at 13:27.
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Old 30th May 2012, 13:57   #712
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Default re: Rationalising diesel prices*Update: 50p rise/month announced*

Quote:
Originally Posted by fast&furious View Post
... Source TOI.
How many diesel cars are there, how much diesel they will consume on average and what would be the loss to the Govt./oil companies at a rate of Rs.15/litre. Just use common sense. I can tell you, they loot a v.decent amount of money every day.

Passenger cars may not be the only consumer of diesel but they're definitely one of the largest (based on what I read).
Ahem... sorry to butt in on this interesting discussion, I just couldn't help myself. Are you accusing all the diesel Swift/Indica/Figo and other diesel car owners on this forum (and outside) of being "LOOTERS"? TOI definitely doesn't call them that. And not even the most ardent "petrol-head" will agree with your statement.

Your particular post makes it look as if all diesel car drivers drive up to the gas station, guns in hand Wild-West style, and force the attendant at gun-point to tank up their cars at subsidized rates.

In a lighter vein, perhaps all of us here should try offering the LPG delivery guy 800 bucks the next time we receive our refills, to keep our conscience clear and avoid partaking in the "loot"!!!

Lets be rational and keep this discussion healthy and avoid unnecessary blanket statements accusing people of a crime they didn't commit using strong and unwarranted words. This thread is not meant for venting out personal anger and frustration. For that, there are punching bags.

No offense meant. In case you feel offended,

For the record, I drive a diesel Tata Sierra AND a petrol Wagon-R. Let the debate continue.

- Bullitt
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Old 30th May 2012, 13:58   #713
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Default re: Rationalising diesel prices*Update: 50p rise/month announced*

Actually when the Govt in our country works like a company. the aim is profit. Right from the very morning ( tax on toothpaste and toothbrush :-)) till the end of the day we pay yeh tax woh tax and lots of other tolls and duties. Apart from that we give income tax. that's not enough for Govt. Govt charges more than 50% tax on fuels. the funny thing is they also charge tax on subsidised fuels. what the hell?? you are taxing subsidy?? Moreover only the oil co.s know the actual production costs of diesel. Look at their profits as mentioned by Jignesh. the taxing and pricing of fuel is so complex in our country that only God will understand it properly. I don't think from any point of view the pricing of fuels in our country is justifiable at all.
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Old 30th May 2012, 14:17   #714
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Default re: Rationalising diesel prices*Update: 50p rise/month announced*

Quote:
Originally Posted by fast&furious View Post
And IMO when people try to get what they don't deserve, it can be considered as looting .
Bingo. And the government has achieved what it had set out to do. It has now successfully pitted the majority of the petrol users against the much lesser number private diesel car owners. Remember I am excluding the taxi segment totally including the ones in the rural areas because folks won't call them "looters" because they are just trying to survive . So now coming back to this argument that private diesel car owners are "looters", well in the sense that they have chosen not to pay additional taxes any more on fuel that they have been paying since years. Nothing personal here but I do not think most folks have understood how diesel is priced and why there is a concept of the under-recovery. Its only that the diesel car owners have decided not to contribute to that under-recovery amount without breaking any law. Diesel car owners just opted to use a fuel with lower taxes imposed on it. And there are also a host of other reasons like better performance, fuel efficiency, etc. Now lets say for argument's sake these small percentage of diesel car owners paid the additional taxes on diesel, would that ensure that petrol prices fall. I think not. Petrol will still be about Rs 20 more or even higher and will still give lower fuel efficiency compared to diesel. I wonder what names will the private diesel car owners would be called then .

Quote:
Originally Posted by fast&furious View Post
Raise the price of LPG, Govt. Give subsidy to people below poverty line ie.to those who deserve it. Nothing will go upside down if they raise the price by Rs.50 as most nuclear families wont need more than one cylinder per month (in fact, they wont get more than 1/month in the present situation).
+1 to that. I have already advocated that. But it should be mandatory to all who can afford. Not that the politicians riding around in SUVs still get to pay the subsidized price.
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Old 30th May 2012, 14:25   #715
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Default re: Rationalising diesel prices*Update: 50p rise/month announced*

I used the word 'loot' in a casual manner. Sorry if it hurt someone.

But it is true that people who don't deserve subsidy are getting it. And most people think about transport sector only when they hear subsidy on diesel because it's the major diesel consumer known to them. Not many would think about five star hotels and telecom companies like some of you. That's why the discussion covers that sector only. And the nature of the website where the discussion is going on also influences it. This website is dedicated to automobiles.

And who here said that subsidy on diesel should be provided to industries? The lift in subsidy should be applicable to everyone except a few who still deserve it. I don't think anybody here has any objection. Fuel consumers should be seen as a whole.

And talking about telecom companies. Who is benefited when a car runs on subsidised diesel? One who drives/owns it. And who is the beneficiary when a telecom company powers its towers using diesel generators? It's not just the company, you know. We consumers also enjoy a share of it. The situation with other industries are also similar. They use diesel to make some useful goods and some others here waste diesel. How many cars do we see with the driver alone in it? Many. Many people buy diesel cars because they want to go to office in their cars. I would rather give subsidy to the industries than giving it to such people. Again I repeat, I'm not saying that industries should be given diesel at subsidised rate. But you shouldn't only consider the amount of diesel consumed but also the purpose for which it's consumed.
Quote:
On an average, the consumption pattern of petroleum products in India is as follows:
  • Transport (Petrol, Diesel, CNG, Aviation Fuel) : 51%
  • Industry (Petrol, Diesel, Fuel Oil, Naphtha, Natural Gas): 14%
  • Commercial & Others : 13%
  • Domestic (LPG & Kerosene): 18%
  • Agriculture (Diesel): 4%
Source:PCRA(Petroleum Conservation Research Association).

Now even that's an unreliable source? It only reveals the consumption of petroleum products but the role of the transport sector can clearly be understood from this.

EDIT: OMG I didn't expect this kinda reaction! Why you guys taking it so seriously? Dieselheads, I didn't mean any offence. Don't attack me like this.

Last edited by fast&furious : 30th May 2012 at 14:36.
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Old 30th May 2012, 14:37   #716
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Default re: Rationalising diesel prices*Update: 50p rise/month announced*

Sorry to nitpick.

Transport (Petrol, Diesel, CNG, Aviation Fuel) : 51%

This 51% includes all kind of transport - petrol and diesel. This is not indicative of what percentage of all Diesel consumed are the Private Diesel Car owners using. I am not condoning the misuse of subsidy. My argument has always been, lets not target just one segment, but lets look at the whole scenario. Agreed this is an auto enthusiasts' forum, but the thread tltle does not read "Rationalizing Diesel Prices for Private Cars", does it?

IMO, the best thing would be to do away with the subsidy completely and then support the deserving by other means.

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Old 30th May 2012, 14:48   #717
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Default re: Rationalising diesel prices*Update: 50p rise/month announced*

I saw on the Bottomline (8:30am but taped and seen at lunchtime) two things. One other estimate puts diesel usage in cars at 15%. What was even more remarkable that while the refining margin per bbl for Reliance is in the $8-$9 range, IOC makes about $4. Our super efficient public sector whose plants were amortised long ago!
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Old 30th May 2012, 14:54   #718
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Default re: Rationalising diesel prices*Update: 50p rise/month announced*

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Originally Posted by PatchyBoy View Post
This 51% includes all kind of transport - petrol and diesel. This is not indicative of what percentage of all Diesel consumed are the Private Diesel Car owners using.
Ya I mentioned that in the post. But the role of transport sector when it comes to fuel consumption is not negligible. That's the message I wanted to convey.
Quote:
I am not condoning the misuse of subsidy. My argument has always been, lets not target just one segment, but lets look at the whole scenario.
+1. I support that argument.
Quote:
Agreed this is an auto enthusiasts' forum, but the thread tltle does not read "Rationalizing Diesel Prices for Private Cars", does it?
It doesn't. But the discussions here mainly involve automobiles. People generally think along that line. It's clear from the title itself that the discussion is not about raising diesel prices for passenger cars. And the reasons why other sectors are not considered, I have already mentioned.
Quote:
IMO, the best thing would be to do away with the subsidy completely and then support the deserving by other means.
That's another interesting idea though I don't completely understand what the 'other means' you're talking about.

Last edited by fast&furious : 30th May 2012 at 14:56.
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Old 30th May 2012, 15:03   #719
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Default re: Rationalising diesel prices*Update: 50p rise/month announced*

Quote:
Originally Posted by fast&furious View Post
But it is true that people who don't deserve subsidy are getting it.
I don't think you are getting it. It is not a subsidy even if the government calls it so. It is a reparation that the government pays the OMCs for paying taxes to the state governments on diesel. I think you should go and check this again http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/attach...e-products.pdf. Diesel without any taxes charged would come to around Rs 48 only. It is only because there are various levels of taxation at the state level that the OMCs sell it at a reduced price at the dealers so that the states can have a free lunch. Same goes for petrol. I hope you can start distinguishing between taxes and subsidies. Why do our governments charge such a hefty amount of taxes on such an essential commodity which is much needed for our daily livelihood? If you think that is justified then it is a different discussion.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sgiitk View Post
I saw on the Bottomline (8:30am but taped and seen at lunchtime) two things. One other estimate puts diesel usage in cars at 15%. What was even more remarkable that while the refining margin per bbl for Reliance is in the $8-$9 range, IOC makes about $4. Our super efficient public sector whose plants were amortised long ago!
Once the government starts acting sanely and reduces the amount of money paid to our public sector OMCs which would then in turn make them show lower profits, they will find out ways of improving their refining margins. Right now the fat cats will have their Cheshire smiles on display at the expense of the taxpayers .
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Old 4th June 2012, 09:59   #720
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Default re: Rationalising diesel prices*Update: 50p rise/month announced*

Diesel, LPG hike must: PM's adviser C Rangarajan

Quote:

The Indian economy faces "a critical situation" and the government must raise the prices of diesel and cooking gas and move forward on economic reforms to revive growth, chairman of the Prime Minister's Economic Advisory Council C Rangarajan has said.
Source : Times Of India

Rajan
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