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Old 19th September 2012, 15:53   #916
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Default re: Rationalising diesel prices*Update: 50p rise/month announced*

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Originally Posted by sgiitk View Post
Many people may say Good Riddance. I do not understand why the NDA is keen to have the poisoned chalice.

The markets are hardly affected: under 10 points on Nifty, a paisa on the Dollar. Maybe there is something more than what meets the eye.
I too would say good riddance, as long as government doesn't fall or kneel. Bandh is another way of blackmail. Only the poorest of the poor suffer, while rest just take a day off. I do not want to see a roll back. What surprises me most that people in my office too are complaining about the hike or restriction on gas cylinders!!!

And markets are closed today. But SGX Nifty suggests a fall of about 1%. http://www.moneycontrol.com/premarket/

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Old 19th September 2012, 17:10   #917
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Default re: Rationalising diesel prices*Update: 50p rise/month announced*

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What surprises me most that people in my office too are complaining about the hike or restriction on gas cylinders!!!
Isn't the restriction only on subsidy? I hope I would get as many cylinders as I require if I pay full price.
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Old 19th September 2012, 17:24   #918
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Quote:
Originally Posted by msdivy
Isn't the restriction only on subsidy? I hope I would get as many cylinders as I require if I pay full price.
You would indeed be able to buy as many cylinders as you like at market prices, over and above the number of capped subsidised cylinders (6 now, may be relaxed to 9). Even if the PSU gas companies are hesitant on this (which I don't think they will be), one can buy any number of cylinders from the private LPG marketing companies at the unsubsidised rates.

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Old 19th September 2012, 17:34   #919
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Default re: Rationalising diesel prices*Update: 50p rise/month announced*

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Originally Posted by RSR View Post
Even if the PSU gas companies are hesitant on this (which I don't think they will be), one can buy any number of cylinders from the private LPG marketing companies at the unsubsidised rates.
One thing I don't like is changing gas distributor, since that requires changing the regulator, managing these is cumbersome. I wish the regular gas agency gives as many cylinders as required and charge actual price in case the limit is exceeded.

Here is the impact of cylinder restriction for those who use 16, 12 & 9 cylinders per year:
Name:  governmentslpgcapto6cylindersperhouseholdwillnotupsetyourbudget.jpg
Views: 656
Size:  43.3 KB

Source: ET
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Old 19th September 2012, 17:59   #920
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Default re: Rationalising diesel prices*Update: 50p rise/month announced*

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Originally Posted by msdivy View Post
One thing I don't like is changing gas distributor, since that requires changing the regulator, managing these is cumbersome. I wish the regular gas agency gives as many cylinders as required and charge actual price in case the limit is exceeded.
Ideally they should have gotten away this subsidy business in gas cylinders totally. Partial subsidy opens the floodgates to corruption greatly. To help those who need financial assistance for LPG a mechanism like the UID system should have been used to transfer the benefits to those who need while we kept fingers crossed that corrupt babus and politicians don't misappropriate those benefits. Its another story that the whole UID scheme is just huffing and puffing its way and pretty far from completion.

Full subsidy or no subsidy reduces the motivation of the shady LPG dealers of selling the cylinders in the black market. LPG dealers have been reportedly found surreptitiously ordering cylinders in the names of customers/households having low usage and selling it in the commercial market. This 6/9 limit business will just encourage them to loot honest customers who have low LPG usage, a household like mine included. I will now have to keep a keen watch in that transparency portal and continue to hope I am not duped .

I also don't know why Congress ruled states have been asked to increase the limit from 6 to 9 while all of those states are running huge deficits.

Last edited by samarjitdhar : 19th September 2012 at 18:00.
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Old 19th September 2012, 18:25   #921
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I am gladly paying the higher price for Diesel.
Am told by my Gas man that I need to pay Rs 750 for the next refill which is due this Saturday.
I also pay my taxes diligently.
I am also only a stupid common man, like Naseeruddin Shah says in A Wednesday.

Are the great and the good of India, read Politicos and Bureaucrats one whit affected by this price hike?
No because they run on free fuel for their government vehicles and receive free domestic cooking gas too, because of the sterling service that they do for the poor foolish common public!
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Old 21st September 2012, 21:30   #922
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Default re: Rationalising diesel prices*Update: 50p rise/month announced*

Heard the Prime minister speech @ 8.00 p.m today. He said that subsidized Diesel is used by big cars, SUV's, business etc... and hence went in for a hike.
I Expect some taxation coming in for diesel vehicles shortly....
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Old 22nd September 2012, 07:36   #923
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Default re: Rationalising diesel prices*Update: 50p rise/month announced*

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Originally Posted by samarjitdhar View Post
Imagine the amount of loot that has been done in the name of 2G and now Coalgate and the amount of revenue generation that would have happened to bridge this deficit which I agree is for real and dangerous.
I would like to point out two issues that I find with your opinion. First of all, who gets looted? Someone who was careless. It applies to citizens of a country too. If citizens proactively pushed for transparency in government accountability and transparency both at center and state level, a lot of corruption could have been avoided. But no! We are either too busy with cozy private jobs to care or we are hand in hand some kind of corruption ourselves at varying degrees. Really how many of us have even met our elected representatives to find what has been spent in our name for us? How many of us have asked for the planned expenditures and sources of income?

I am really tired of hearing people who cry foul on the internet after they wake up to the mess that they let happen. Yes we allow the loot because we really don't care. But we pretend and fool ourselves that we do by posturing on the internet.

Quote:
Originally Posted by msdivy View Post
One thing I don't like is changing gas distributor, since that requires changing the regulator, managing these is cumbersome. I wish the regular gas agency gives as many cylinders as required and charge actual price in case the limit is exceeded.

Here is the impact of cylinder restriction for those who use 16, 12 & 9 cylinders per year:
Attachment 988410

Source: ET
You are missing the majority of India who do not have gas connections - those who rely on kerosene and other sources.

Last edited by SedatedDrive : 22nd September 2012 at 08:04.
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Old 22nd September 2012, 08:46   #924
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Default re: Rationalising diesel prices*Update: 50p rise/month announced*

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Originally Posted by prakasse View Post
Heard the Prime minister speech @ 8.00 p.m today. He said that subsidized Diesel is used by big cars, SUV's, business etc... and hence went in for a hike.
I Expect some taxation coming in for diesel vehicles shortly....
What prime minister omitted was really important ; While speaking those lofty words at-least at the back of his mind he must be thinking many things.
I am sure if some sort of truth serum was administered before the speech he would have said

- My government failed to supply decent electricity and even coal to already commissioned power plants so business and domestic users shifted to Diesel.

- To hold my chair till son of UPA chairperson takes over , I always gave Railways to unworthy ministers in last 8 years thus increasing pressure on intercity transport and resulting in more Diesel consumption.

- In last 8 years I did absolutely nothing to fix the maze of notional cross subsidy and sky high tax

- My policies were decided by an NGO full of bunch of economic uneducated bleeding hearts who had more powers then me.

- Despite being in PM's chair I was never in control, though P.V. Narsimharao demonstrated me how to control, I could not take control as whole of my life I was gentle pen-pusher babu and never had bone to command.
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Old 22nd September 2012, 12:37   #925
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Default re: Rationalising diesel prices*Update: 50p rise/month announced*

I believe the way to go forward is completely deregulated prices for all commodities in India. If essential commodities prices are affected for the poor, PDS system should be made stronger and more effective to insulate them. That would result in better direction of resources at points that actually need help. Imagine how many can benefit if the money used to subsidize diesel is used for welfare related measures directly.

And the entire automobile tax system at various levels should be reworked. Instead of focussing excessively on displacement and ex-showroom prices, focus should be made on ground surface area occupied (hence benefiting cars with a smaller road footprint) and emission levels (tax breaks could be provided to cars like Reva). Higher level of safety equipment could also be promoted with tax benefits, so that cars with all four disc brakes, 6 airbags and ABS+EBD are encouraged.
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Old 22nd September 2012, 21:18   #926
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Default re: Rationalising diesel prices*Update: 50p rise/month announced*

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Originally Posted by shankar.balan View Post
Are the great and the good of India, read Politicos and Bureaucrats one whit affected by this price hike?
No because they run on free fuel for their government vehicles and receive free domestic cooking gas too, because of the sterling service that they do for the poor foolish common public!
You brought up a pertinent point. I had heard about the free fuel but didn't know about free domestic gas too. So basically our hallowed economists have kept a diplomatic silence about the subsidies these guys enjoy. Swell . For the record the Dutch PM cycles to work. That's why some of the more mature democracies in the world have "leaders".

Quote:
Originally Posted by prakasse View Post
Heard the Prime minister speech @ 8.00 p.m today. He said that subsidized Diesel is used by big cars, SUV's, business etc... and hence went in for a hike.
I Expect some taxation coming in for diesel vehicles shortly....
Yes except for those SUVs and diesel run vehicles that would be purchased by the politicos and their near and distant relatives. But I thought this speech was supposed to be about justifying FDI in retail. I passed on watching him making incoherent small talk when he has been sleeping at the wheel for the good part of the past 8 years.

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Originally Posted by SedatedDrive View Post
I would like to point out two issues that I find with your opinion. First of all, who gets looted? Someone who was careless. It applies to citizens of a country too. If citizens proactively pushed for transparency in government accountability and transparency both at center and state level, a lot of corruption could have been avoided. But no! We are either too busy with cozy private jobs to care or we are hand in hand some kind of corruption ourselves at varying degrees. Really how many of us have even met our elected representatives to find what has been spent in our name for us? How many of us have asked for the planned expenditures and sources of income?

I am really tired of hearing people who cry foul on the internet after they wake up to the mess that they let happen. Yes we allow the loot because we really don't care. But we pretend and fool ourselves that we do by posturing on the internet.
I agree with you and I would confess that apart from vociferously supporting some of our anti-corruption activists and participating in their rallies I have not taken up cudgels from the front. But you know what, I am extremely disappointed in that majority of literate cozy private job holding Indians who roundly criticize those anti-corruption activists who demand probity in public life and ask for establishing concrete mechanisms to monitor and eliminate corruption. This majority of literate Indians abused, nit-picked, ignored, laughed, belittled and did everything they could do to the effort these activists put in and I don't want a debate starting off here on this. I couldn't help despair at the dichotomy of these supposedly literate Indians who on one hand are supposed to be staunchly against corruption but on the other hand despise anybody who have taken up the initiative to figure out ways to root it out. This do-nothing, sit-at-home, opinionated and probably non-voting literate cushy job holding majority is to blame for the state of the nation. Many a time they would even justify the existence of some amount of corruption if it serves their own interests. I expected the least they could do at least give moral support who want to root out of corruption in public life. Oh well.

Quote:
Originally Posted by amitk26 View Post
What prime minister omitted was really important ; While speaking those lofty words at-least at the back of his mind he must be thinking many things.
I am sure if some sort of truth serum was administered before the speech he would have said

- My government failed to supply decent electricity and even coal to already commissioned power plants so business and domestic users shifted to Diesel.

- To hold my chair till son of UPA chairperson takes over , I always gave Railways to unworthy ministers in last 8 years thus increasing pressure on intercity transport and resulting in more Diesel consumption.

- In last 8 years I did absolutely nothing to fix the maze of notional cross subsidy and sky high tax

- My policies were decided by an NGO full of bunch of economic uneducated bleeding hearts who had more powers then me.

- Despite being in PM's chair I was never in control, though P.V. Narsimharao demonstrated me how to control, I could not take control as whole of my life I was gentle pen-pusher babu and never had bone to command.
Also in the last 8 years the speed of building highways dramatically reduced to 1/5th of the target. The daily target of completing about 21 kms is now at a paltry 4 kms of highways. While India witnessed overall growth in road traffic the pathetic state of the highways have now caused more losses in fuel due to idling and absolutely pathetic planning of infrastructure growth.
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Old 22nd September 2012, 21:37   #927
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Default re: Rationalising diesel prices*Update: 50p rise/month announced*

Quote:
Originally Posted by samarjitdhar View Post
You brought up a pertinent point. I had heard about the free fuel but didn't know about free domestic gas too. So basically our hallowed economists have kept a diplomatic silence about the subsidies these guys enjoy. Swell . For the record the Dutch PM cycles to work. That's why some of the more mature democracies in the world have "leaders".

Yes except for those SUVs and diesel run vehicles that would be purchased by the politicos and their near and distant relatives. But I thought this speech was supposed to be about justifying FDI in retail. I passed on watching him making incoherent small talk when he has been sleeping at the wheel for the good part of the past 8 years.
What else can we expect from 'son in laws' of the democracy who believe that a poor can be termed poor only if he fails to earn 27 odd rupees per day?

Dutch PM cycles to work because they got their country to this economic conditions. Our " honorable leaders" will soon make sure that you and me cycle to work. I advice all to buy one now before cycles become unaffordable.

On the question of SUV using diesel, I wanted to ask Mr. Prime Minister on the ratio of the consumption of diesel by these SUV. Also, it was his way of saying that the govt is punishing the SUV owners (who actually won't mind a 5 rupee increase). The poor in any case non existent.
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Old 22nd September 2012, 22:54   #928
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Default re: Rationalising diesel prices*Update: 50p rise/month announced*

Damned if you do, damned if you don't - I feel sorry for the PM. First people said he's not doing enough and the India story is ending. Then he and his party, seeing opportunity to bypass a nutty ally and an equally reform-averse former finance minister, push through the biggest FDI reform in a decade and a few other decisions. How do we react? By snickering at his attempts.

I don't hold a brief for Singh but I do know this, in his two terms the two decisions that he has taken on the nuclear deal and FDI in retail will stand this country in good stead a decade or two down the line. When you have a bureaucrat/politician who is willing and able to think beyond his/her nose, constituency, state or the next election and take decisions that are misunderstood in the immediate and that will bear fruit only after his/her passing- that is something that deserves to be appreciated and applauded.

The nuclear deal? why? because we are running out of coal and there is only one technology that has the scale and ability to power a country of this size and population. FDI in retail? why? because it will lower prices for consumers (the biggest group in this entire debate that everyone ignores). You hear the BJP talk and they'll have you believe everybody in this country is a trader or a shopkeeper. What they don't tell you is that opening retail to FDI was on their agenda if they'd won the 2004 election.

Separately, we are all getting screwed from food to oil by trading in commodities:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/0..._n_911805.html

http://www.forbes.com/sites/robertle...ce-per-barrel/

http://edition.cnn.com/2012/02/28/op...ion/index.html
Anybody noticed what's happened to CNG prices lately?

http://www.theatlanticwire.com/busin...l-metal/40525/

Last edited by StarScream : 22nd September 2012 at 22:56.
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Old 22nd September 2012, 22:59   #929
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Default re: Rationalising diesel prices*Update: 50p rise/month announced*

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http://edition.cnn.com/2012/02/28/op...ion/index.html
Anybody noticed what's happened to CNG prices lately?
No. I haven't noticed anything. What exactly has happened to CNG prices?
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Old 22nd September 2012, 23:06   #930
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Default re: Rationalising diesel prices*Update: 50p rise/month announced*

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No. I haven't noticed anything. What exactly has happened to CNG prices?
what was it two years back and what is it now? I've only had piped cooking gas for 6 months and the price has risen twice already. With KG-D6 output floundering, we're importing gas as well.
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