Go Back   Team-BHP > BHP India > The Indian Car Scene


Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 18th January 2013, 07:36   #1051
Senior - BHPian
 
rajshenoy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: bangalore
Posts: 1,846
Thanked: 623 Times
Infractions: 0/2 (10)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by carboy View Post

Aren't there 7-8 seater petrols available?
Plz give me some choice? Bolero scorpio don't even have petrol option. Innova petrol? I have rarely seen on road plus i have heard its a drunkard

You suggesting ertiga? I like it but as i said there needs to be more choice in the market for more people to go for efficient petrol muv/suv
rajshenoy is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 18th January 2013, 07:52   #1052
Distinguished - BHPian
 
drmohitg's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Delhi
Posts: 4,479
Thanked: 3,623 Times
Default re: Rationalising diesel prices*Update: 50p rise/month announced*

Quote:
Originally Posted by carboy View Post
I, for one, welcome it. I don't see why Govt should be looting the public only on petrol prices and sparing them on diesel prices. If they want to stop looting, let them stop looting on both.
Precisely my point. Rather than correcting the pricing fiasco by lowering the taxes levied on something so essential such as fuel, they just want to increase the prices of the other fuel too. "2 wrongs do not not make a right".
drmohitg is online now   (1) Thanks Reply With Quote
Old 18th January 2013, 08:16   #1053
BHPian
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Hamden
Posts: 120
Thanked: 55 Times
Default re: Rationalising diesel prices*Update: 50p rise/month announced*

I believe that diesel should be subsidized only for transportation and agriculture sectors. Like some other members said, diesel will continue to be a viable option for personal vehicles even when priced similar to petrol due to higher FE.
raveen_2023 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18th January 2013, 08:19   #1054
BHPian
 
anand_hc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Bangalore
Posts: 78
Thanked: 43 Times
Default re: Rationalising diesel prices*Update: 50p rise/month announced*

Increase the price slowly and no one will ever complain.

Would be interesting to see the reactions of opposition parties.

I am fine with price hikes, what OMCs don't do is reduce price when crude prices come down. They take their own sweet time & by the time they decide, crude prices would have gone high. So they never do it once they raise it.

If govt can not enforce laws or procedures to ensure OMCs pass on benefits of crude prices being low, they should not allow them to raise it too.
anand_hc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18th January 2013, 08:25   #1055
BHPian
 
civic-sense's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Bangalore
Posts: 706
Thanked: 752 Times
Default re: Rationalising diesel prices*Update: 50p rise/month announced*

Quote:
Originally Posted by raveen_2023 View Post
I believe that diesel should be subsidized only for transportation and agriculture sectors.
LPG for commercial purposes does not come with subsidy, while household does. So I don't understand why govt should subsidize diesel for commercial purposes, agriculture included. IMO, commercial parties would be able to absorb the hike better than individuals.

Quote:
Like some other members said, diesel will continue to be a viable option for personal vehicles even when priced similar to petrol due to higher FE.
Would they pay 1-1.5L in advance just to get a better FE? They are trying to bluff themselves. They will scram back to petrol when they shop for their next car.

Last edited by civic-sense : 18th January 2013 at 08:29.
civic-sense is online now   (2) Thanks Reply With Quote
Old 18th January 2013, 08:26   #1056
BHPian
 
Hayek's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Bombay
Posts: 709
Thanked: 1,635 Times
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by drmohitg View Post

Precisely my point. Rather than correcting the pricing fiasco by lowering the taxes levied on something so essential such as fuel, they just want to increase the prices of the other fuel too. "2 wrongs do not not make a right".
Have to disagree. The government cannot lower taxes on fuels since fuel revenue accounts for a large share of its total take - and the government is already running large deficits. (Please note that thanks to the fraudulent accounting the GOI does, a large part of the fuel subsidy is "off balance sheet" while revenues from fuel taxes are on balance sheet). I fully agree that there is drastic reengineering that the government can do - government servants at most levels are ridiculously overpaid, and even the seemingly under paid Cabinet Secretaries et al are actually overpaid if you count the market value of the Central Delhi housing they are given and account for their pensions correctly; there are too many wasteful schemes like NREGA etc around; and most government servants don't work anywhere near as hard as people in even the most laid back private companies.

Also agree that the government can do a lot to improve tax collections. I was recently shocked to realise that there are only 400,000 Indians who declare an income of more than Rs. 20 lakhs a year. I am sure that every Kirana shop owner and Doctor, at least in metros, makes several times that amount - but they don't declare it.

So the government is left with two choices - keep milking those poor 400,000 for more every day, or reduce some of the most egregious subsidies slightly. They are likely to do both - after all, new boondoggles have to be invented to win votes before each election - and someone has to pay for them.

As I have said on another thread, the current increase in diesel prices is just tokenism - it will take 3 years to eliminate the diesel subsidy at the proposed rate even if the government adheres to its schedule firmly and oil prices stay flat.

Last edited by Hayek : 18th January 2013 at 08:54.
Hayek is online now   (6) Thanks Reply With Quote
Old 18th January 2013, 08:29   #1057
Senior - BHPian
 
mjothi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Bangalore
Posts: 3,252
Thanked: 216 Times
Default re: Rationalising diesel prices*Update: 50p rise/month announced*

Quote:
Originally Posted by carboy View Post
I, for one, welcome it. I don't see why Govt should be looting the public only on petrol prices and sparing them on diesel prices. If they want to stop looting, let them stop looting on both.
If govt is really running out of money, they should also consider
1. to stop or reduce the subsidy for freebies (I heard right to food is going to cost 90L+ crores for govt...)
2. Provide a plan for better management to lower the administration / manufacturing costs in OMC
3. Streamline and fix corruption "atleast" in public distribution system, where tonnes of grains are rotten.
4. Sit and plan to increase the tax net and not the tax percentage

There are so many real ways to handle deficiency, not that govt do not know. But it is to be considered with respect to politics and votes.
mjothi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18th January 2013, 08:40   #1058
BHPian
 
civic-sense's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Bangalore
Posts: 706
Thanked: 752 Times
Default re: Rationalising diesel prices*Update: 50p rise/month announced*

Quote:
Originally Posted by mjothi View Post
If govt is really running out of money, they should also consider
1. to stop or reduce the subsidy for freebies (I heard right to food is going to cost 90L+ crores for govt...)
2. Provide a plan for better management to lower the administration / manufacturing costs in OMC
3. Streamline and fix corruption "atleast" in public distribution system, where tonnes of grains are rotten.
4. Sit and plan to increase the tax net and not the tax percentage

There are so many real ways to handle deficiency, not that govt do not know. But it is to be considered with respect to politics and votes.
OK, they would fix everything, in maybe a century. BUT, they have started to fix the half-a-century-old diesel subsidy thing at least now. Thank them for that.

Most of us want fixes only to areas where we don't get affected. Like, do away with MNREGA, cos I don't get anything from there. Do away with PDS, I don't buy from them.

But, don't touch diesel subsidy, cos I have a diesel car. Fix everything else and come back.
civic-sense is online now   (4) Thanks Reply With Quote
Old 18th January 2013, 08:52   #1059
Distinguished - BHPian
 
drmohitg's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Delhi
Posts: 4,479
Thanked: 3,623 Times
Default re: Rationalising diesel prices*Update: 50p rise/month announced*

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hayek View Post
Have to disagree. The government cannot lower taxes on fuels since fuel revenue accounts for a large share of its total take - and the government is already running large deficits. (Please note that thanks to the fraudulent accounting the GOI does, a large part of the fuel subsidy is "off balance sheet" while revenues from fuel taxes are on balance sheet). I fully agree that there is drastic reengineering that the government can do - government servants at most levels are ridiculously overpaid, and even the seemingly under paid Cabinet Secretaries et al are actually overpaid if you count the market value of the Central Delhi housing they are given and account for their pensions correctly; there are too many wasteful schemes like NREGA etc around; and most government servants don't work anywhere near as hard as people in even the most laid back private companies.


As I have said on another thread, the current increase in diesel prices is just tokenism - it will take 3 years to eliminate the diesel subsidy at the proposed rate even if the government adheres to its schedule firmly and oil prices stay flat.
Totally agree with you. That is what I am trying to say. I am not worried with the hike even though I drive a diesel car. As you rightly said the price difference would only be corrected over the next few years and who knows what the world scenario will be at that time regarding pertoleum products. Also once the disparity between the 2 fuels is lowered down it will again give the government enough courage to once again start slowly increasing petrol prices. They dont mind the inflowing cash for all there useless schemes and frauds.

What feels wrong is the general praise by everyone ( mostly petrol car owners ofcourse) for the govt. What they don't realise is that they are still paying the exorbitant prices for petrol. Rather than forcing the govt to lessen its dependence on revenue from fuel and making it affordable. It is the same old cliche: "If you suffer too than I am at peace".

Last edited by drmohitg : 18th January 2013 at 08:54.
drmohitg is online now   (4) Thanks Reply With Quote
Old 18th January 2013, 09:16   #1060
Senior - BHPian
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: bangalore
Posts: 1,190
Thanked: 181 Times
Default re: Rationalising diesel prices*Update: 50p rise/month announced*

In most countries of the world, diesel and petrol prices are similar/in a narrow band. That it is completely warped in India, is the only proof required that diesel pricing in India is flawed wrt petrol.

The argument that govt taxes fuels a lot, and hence the loss is notional, is a fallacious one. Govt taxes everything, some more and some less. All govts do, India or abroad. Germany has 19% MWST on everything you buy in stores etc, for example.

Eliminating diesel, LPG subsidies is the right step. Whether taxes on fuels can be reduced, is a secondary topic which the govt has to look at considering revenue and expenditure. You and I may agree that the taxes are too high, but then again, fuel prices in most countries are around what they are in India. I was in Thailand in December, and diesel there was more expensive than in India. The blended petrol (gasohol) 91 octane was 5-10% cheaper than 91 octane regular in India. 91 octane without alcohol and with additives, was more expensive than in India for speed/Extra premium!

Diesel car owners were being essentially subsidized by petrol car owners - as the govt taxed petrol more heavily to compensate for the lower earnings it had from diesel. Time to gradually phase out free lunches!

Last edited by lancer_rit : 18th January 2013 at 09:18.
lancer_rit is offline   (2) Thanks Reply With Quote
Old 18th January 2013, 09:23   #1061
Senior - BHPian
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Mumbai
Posts: 1,457
Thanked: 281 Times
Default Re: Rationalising diesel prices*Update: 50p rise/month announced*

Quote:
Originally Posted by raveen_2023 View Post
I believe that diesel should be subsidized only for transportation and agriculture sectors. Like some other members said, diesel will continue to be a viable option for personal vehicles even when priced similar to petrol due to higher FE.
How do you propose to implement differential pricing in such a way that transportation and agriculture sector doesn't resell diesel in the black market.

Quote:
Originally Posted by anand_hc View Post
I am fine with price hikes, what OMCs don't do is reduce price when crude prices come down. They take their own sweet time & by the time they decide, crude prices would have gone high. So they never do it once they raise it.
I think it's because OMCs undergo diesel losses through the year and they use this window to recover some of it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by civic-sense View Post
Most of us want fixes only to areas where we don't get affected. Like, do away with MNREGA, cos I don't get anything from there. Do away with PDS, I don't buy from them.

But, don't touch diesel subsidy, cos I have a diesel car. Fix everything else and come back.
+1

Quote:
Originally Posted by drmohitg View Post
What feels wrong is the general praise by everyone ( mostly petrol car owners ofcourse) for the govt. What they don't realise is that they are still paying the exorbitant prices for petrol. Rather than forcing the govt to lessen its dependence on revenue from fuel and making it affordable. It is the same old cliche: "If you suffer too than I am at peace".
Since I run on CNG, I don't really suffer with the petrol prices. However, I still feel that it's wrong to price diesel below petrol for private car owners. One of three things should be done - lower petrol prices by reducing taxes or remove the 'subsidy' on diesel or tax diesel cars to recover the differential.
carboy is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 18th January 2013, 09:45   #1062
Senior - BHPian
 
mjothi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Bangalore
Posts: 3,252
Thanked: 216 Times
Default Re: Rationalising diesel prices*Update: 50p rise/month announced*

Quote:
Originally Posted by civic-sense View Post
Most of us want fixes only to areas where we don't get affected. Like, do away with MNREGA, cos I don't get anything from there. Do away with PDS, I don't buy from them.

But, don't touch diesel subsidy, cos I have a diesel car. Fix everything else and come back.
Excuse me, I have a Petrol car.

I am not against this. But, I want to see the accountability. Increasing the price alone CANNOT be a solution, is what my argument. Where is the policy or road map for the others?

And I am not against the PDS system, but where is the accountability / responsibility? Did they moved any stone to close the biggest drain - corruption in PDS system + rotting of grains etc?
mjothi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18th January 2013, 09:54   #1063
BHPian
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Home
Posts: 179
Thanked: 104 Times
Default Re: Rationalising diesel prices*Update: 50p rise/month announced*

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hayek View Post
The government cannot lower taxes on fuels since fuel revenue accounts for a large share of its total take - and the government is already running large deficits. (Please note that thanks to the fraudulent accounting the GOI does, a large part of the fuel subsidy is "off balance sheet" while revenues from fuel taxes are on balance sheet).
Could I get the source for this?
Recompose is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18th January 2013, 10:04   #1064
Distinguished - BHPian
 
sgiitk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Kanpur
Posts: 7,160
Thanked: 3,755 Times
Default Re: Rationalising diesel prices*Update: 50p rise/month announced*

I am all for ths. However, PC has played his normal trick - sugar coat everything and get some more money.

The total outflow of the LPG cylinders will be at most 10% of the inflows on Dlesel. Also, institutional / bulk buyers will pay the full price. These in addition to the Railways also include Mobile Towers, Malls and other industrial gensets, etc. I think this is what allowed the ultra slow hikes in Diesel.

The immediate impact on inflation should be not over 0.1%. The rupee has already breached $=54. I expect that the rupee may improve by at least 10% in six months or so. This alone, assuming Crude stays about the same (Brent to NYMEX differential is now down to $16 from 23+ only three months ago), will reduce the rupee cost of Crude by 10%.
sgiitk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18th January 2013, 10:25   #1065
Senior - BHPian
 
selfdrive's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Pune
Posts: 2,697
Thanked: 2,111 Times
Default Re: Rationalising diesel prices*Update: 50p rise/month announced*

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hayek View Post
I fully agree that there is drastic reengineering that the government can do - government servants at most levels are ridiculously overpaid, and even the seemingly under paid Cabinet Secretaries et al are actually overpaid if you count the market value of the Central Delhi housing they are given and account for their pensions correctly; there are too many wasteful schemes like NREGA etc around; and most government servants don't work anywhere near as hard as people in even the most laid back private companies.
The last point is really the clincher. The government does not get any value for the kind of compensation (overall) that they provide for many of the sectors. There is little to no accountability.

Let me take an example of the customs guy at the Mumbai old port (who I believe must be working for the govt. If I am wrong, let me know. I will give another example!)

http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/shifti...ml#post3018664 (Question about Indian Customs and your experience)

Let there be fair appraisals and let these people actually work for their salary. Another example is of a lady (not even clerk) at the RTO who hands out forms. She takes a minimum extra of 5 bucks for each form. No one has ever seen her return any change. The agents advise to give her 30 bucks maximum for a 25 rupee payment, as they know nothing is coming back. What feeds the impunity with which she acts? Lack of accountability.
The drastic re engineering you mentioned should begin with throwing such useless people out and getting people to work. Regardless of quota or reservations or anything. It should be simple, you get paid if you work or else you get thrown out.

The reason why I go into such level of detail is that many of us face these situations every day. These people are the termites who are actually subsidising themselves on the taxes we pay. Simple as that. If these expenses are reduced, the deficit will reduce as well. if the expenses cannot be reduced as these are termed as fixed costs, then let us at least get some work done from them so that we get some value for our money. In terms of government efforts towards better infrastructure at least.

Last edited by selfdrive : 18th January 2013 at 10:30.
selfdrive is offline   (1) Thanks Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Swift Diesel, Saga continues. The DIESEL experience! Part II 72k kms Update Page 182. Now SOLD! Jaggu Long-Term Ownership Reviews 2988 21st September 2017 11:10
BMW to drop prices due to increased localisation. EDIT: New prices announced Aditya The Indian Car Scene 38 10th July 2015 21:19
Hyundai Cut prices- New detailed prices. harry10 The Indian Car Scene 5 9th December 2008 00:45
Are these good prices for Tata\Fiat vehicles? Corporate Offer Prices sahakar The Indian Car Scene 15 8th July 2008 23:03


All times are GMT +5.5. The time now is 19:06.

Copyright 2000 - 2017, Team-BHP.com
Proudly powered by E2E Networks