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Old 21st November 2013, 22:52   #1276
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Originally Posted by nkishore_007 View Post

Right!

where does that end us (common people) with? Someone decided (probably with good intentions), "lets subsidize diesel". Over time, loop holes were found and utilized to the maximum extent as you had rightly stated. So, in your any other fellow T-BHPian's opinion, where exactly is this heading or supposed to head? Vote bank gimmick? Or a bigger propaganda? Someone might have thought and came out of the loooong tunnel of light. Yes? No? Maybe?

The diesel car owners are only basking in the glory of the decision made quite some time back, which is perfectly fine of course.

What scares me are the consequences of deregulating the price. duh!
On one side, people oppose common man using diesel cars and thus the subsidy. They want diesel regularised.

On the other hand- they still want the subsidy on every other product used. Name almost any item used on a daily basis- more often than not- they would have used multiple forms of diesel transport before reaching the consumer. Thus effectively they are all subsidised through diesel.

Funny enough- even petrol is transported through diesel trucks.

There is only one way out of this- and it will not only be the Diesel car owners who will suffer the impact.
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Old 21st November 2013, 23:12   #1277
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Default Re: Rationalising diesel prices. *Update: 50p rise/month announced*

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Originally Posted by nkishore_007 View Post
Right!

where does that end us (common people) with? Someone decided (probably with good intentions), "lets subsidize diesel". Over time, loop holes were found and utilized to the maximum extent as you had rightly stated. So, in your any other fellow T-BHPian's opinion, where exactly is this heading or supposed to head? Vote bank gimmick? Or a bigger propaganda? Someone might have thought and came out of the loooong tunnel of light. Yes? No? Maybe?

The diesel car owners are only basking in the glory of the decision made quite some time back, which is perfectly fine of course.

What scares me are the consequences of deregulating the price. duh!
Where this is heading ? This is heading in a wrong direction for all of us ( Common Man). See, the government wants to impose more taxes ( more money for them to eat), but they are also worried about the uproar that will happen as cost of essential commodities go up the North Pole.

Instead of talking and getting vexed up about some SUBSIDY , which is not a Subsidy in the first place, we should turn our efforts in getting the right people elected. Problem is most of us don't vote. The entire country runs on our money( Salaried class) and we are the ones the government cares the least. Indians in general get easily divided by the most trivial things . Its easy to manage divided folks and thats why we are all suffering.

Unless we get that rut of the way, I am afraid there is no light at the end of the tunnel. All of this " Petrol and Diesel" discussion in media is a political propaganda by the government to keep us occupied in infighting.
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Old 22nd November 2013, 09:01   #1278
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Default Re: Rationalising diesel prices. *Update: 50p rise/month announced*

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Originally Posted by dreadknight5 View Post
Where this is heading ? This is heading in a wrong direction for all of us ( Common Man). See, the government wants to impose more taxes ( more money for them to eat), but they are also worried about the uproar that will happen as cost of essential commodities go up the North Pole.
Oh I wouldn't worry too much about it. This posturing happens from time to time. One threat of a transport strike, one populist politician making a noise about the common man and all this will be forgotten.

This thread is almost 9 years old- that should give an idea about how serious the government & administration are about implementing a real solution. It's disgrace that owners of the most expensive of luxury cars pay less than what a scooter-rider pays for fuel. But populism demands that diesel prices be kept artificially lower than petrol, conveniently dubbed the "rich man's fuel". Nothing will change.
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Old 22nd November 2013, 12:30   #1279
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Default Re: Rationalising diesel prices. *Update: 50p rise/month announced*

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Oh I wouldn't worry too much about it. This posturing happens from time to time. One threat of a transport strike, one populist politician making a noise about the common man and all this will be forgotten.

This thread is almost 9 years old- that should give an idea about how serious the government & administration are about implementing a real solution. It's disgrace that owners of the most expensive of luxury cars pay less than what a scooter-rider pays for fuel. But populism demands that diesel prices be kept artificially lower than petrol, conveniently dubbed the "rich man's fuel". Nothing will change.
I disagree a bit on the last statement. Things ARE changing. Diesel currently is priced at approximately 3/4th (75%) of the price of petrol. Historically, that is the highest it has ever got to. Compared to that, 9 years ago, diesel was 2/3rd (67%) the price of petrol. They are definitely trying to close the gap. But every party in the opposition, be it the extreme right or the extreme left would try to extract maximum mileage out of any unpopular decision.
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Old 22nd November 2013, 13:20   #1280
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Default Re: Rationalising diesel prices. *Update: 50p rise/month announced*

Yes, as current prices stand, the disparity has come down quite a lot. Even though the monthly increment of 50p is miniscule, if it was implemented strictly, the gap would have been bridged.
If not for the elections, we could have seen this happen. And irrespective of who comes to power next, this will be the way they pursue, though they might say the opposite in the runup to the elections.
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Old 22nd November 2013, 14:46   #1281
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Default Re: Rationalising diesel prices. *Update: 50p rise/month announced*

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Originally Posted by noopster View Post
Oh I wouldn't worry too much about it. This posturing happens from time to time. One threat of a transport strike, one populist politician making a noise about the common man and all this will be forgotten.

This thread is almost 9 years old- that should give an idea about how serious the government & administration are about implementing a real solution. It's disgrace that owners of the most expensive of luxury cars pay less than what a scooter-rider pays for fuel. But populism demands that diesel prices be kept artificially lower than petrol, conveniently dubbed the "rich man's fuel". Nothing will change.
No it is not a disgrace. You are being biased here. Isn't the luxury car owner paying 30 - 100 times the road tax, Paying way more insurance fees thanks to bad 3rd party insurance policy in India when compared to the 2 wheelers ? Is it fine to milk that kind of money from someone purely because he/she can pay ?

Also, there are 2 wheelers costing 20 lakhs. Compare that with say a middle class family owning a 2nd hand diesel vehicle for say 3 lakhs. How will you picture that in ?

According to you, luxury vehicles don't come in petrol version ? This rich man's fuel concept was conceived back in the days when buses/trucks /trains ran on diesel and all other transport ran on petrol. Yeah, back then Owning a 2 Wheeler was considered to be fairly rich.

How does bringing Diesel Price to Petrol price going to help anyone ( common man) ?

A possible solution from my perspective would be " Ration Fuels for each individual". Implement a slab system , like they do in electricity. The more electricity units you consume , they higher slab rates you pay. So this way, it will be fair system to everyone. The people consuming more Fuel ( say 20-30 liters a month) pay more taxes than people that consume less fuel. Of course the numbers would need to be tweaked

Last edited by dreadknight5 : 22nd November 2013 at 15:12. Reason: spelling
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Old 22nd November 2013, 14:49   #1282
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Default Re: Rationalising diesel prices. *Update: 50p rise/month announced*

Diesel is not subsidized. Thats a lie by playing with numbers.
Diesel would be subsidized, if cost of diesel currently < Cost of diesel without subsidy and without any taxes.

So they give in subsidy, and take back in taxes.
One big sham.
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Old 22nd November 2013, 14:58   #1283
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Default Re: Rationalising diesel prices. *Update: 50p rise/month announced*

All imaginary numbers to keep us debating and bickering, while the real numbers are crunched through paperless channels, mostly black money untraceable by regular means.

The subsidy, the oil promoters' losses, the tax breaks, all imaginary numbers that exist only on paper ultimately. The real numbers never see the light of day, for obvious reasons.
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Old 22nd November 2013, 15:33   #1284
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Default Re: Rationalising diesel prices. *Update: 50p rise/month announced*

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Originally Posted by Chetan_Rao View Post
The subsidy, the oil promoters' losses, the tax breaks, all imaginary numbers that exist only on paper ultimately. The real numbers never see the light of day, for obvious reasons.
Thank you!

Funny to deregulate a market which is dominated by government owned companies. To really create competition and thus better prices for customers I think we need to open the market completely. The oil industry is not a market which requires control by a government unlike for example the food industry (looking at manipulated onion&potato prices).
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Old 22nd November 2013, 15:46   #1285
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Default Re: Rationalising diesel prices. *Update: 50p rise/month announced*

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Originally Posted by tsk1979 View Post
Diesel is not subsidized. Thats a lie by playing with numbers.
Diesel would be subsidized, if cost of diesel currently < Cost of diesel without subsidy and without any taxes.

So they give in subsidy, and take back in taxes.
One big sham.
It is not right to look at the case of diesel in isolation. In case of diesel, the govt takes with one hand (tax) and gives back with the other (subsidy). In the case of petrol, govt takes with both hands but does not give back anything. Hence, in effect, diesel is subsidized.
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Old 22nd November 2013, 16:01   #1286
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Default Re: Rationalising diesel prices. *Update: 50p rise/month announced*

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Originally Posted by blacksport View Post
It is not right to look at the case of diesel in isolation. In case of diesel, the govt takes with one hand (tax) and gives back with the other (subsidy). In the case of petrol, govt takes with both hands but does not give back anything. Hence, in effect, diesel is subsidized.

Just because I decide not to take from you, does not mean I am giving you something. Or are these the ways of this banana republic?
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Old 22nd November 2013, 16:14   #1287
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Default Re: Rationalising diesel prices. *Update: 50p rise/month announced*

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Originally Posted by blacksport View Post
It is not right to look at the case of diesel in isolation. In case of diesel, the govt takes with one hand (tax) and gives back with the other (subsidy). In the case of petrol, govt takes with both hands but does not give back anything. Hence, in effect, diesel is subsidized.
There is no "in effect" here.
Diesel is not subsidized. Its taxed at a lower rate than Petrol. Lower tax does not mean subsidy.
Places where taxes have been removed, petrol can cost as much as diesel(eg Goa)
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Old 22nd November 2013, 16:17   #1288
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Default Re: Rationalising diesel prices. *Update: 50p rise/month announced*

Biggest problem is Govt. has put a great cloak on taxes and given it a big name which is subsidy.

Have you all ever searched or tried contemplating fuel price formulation; more than 50% price of any fuel be it petrol or diesel is just taxes. Milking the common man who elects Govt. Remove the taxes and price would be down to Rs. 45 per liter of petrol or less.

Simply put Govt. wants to earn maximum of its taxes from fuel only. Do you know only 1% of total population pays taxes, then we have so much corruption and this is no hidden fact.

So to make up more taxes they price fuel to absurd levels. Since Govt wants to earn more taxes on diesel they put in so called subsidy and take it back from you in form of taxes.

Everyone is opportunistic in life, so a rich guy buying a diesel to save money just because its cheaper, is not his fault but Govt poor planning & execution. Just have a look at the diesel & petrol split of same car and you be astonished how diesel out weight petrol in numbers.

Another grave problem is we import crude from other countries and fluctuating dollar adds more to the price. Why can't be have in house production of crude? Its just the laxed attitude of our Govt to not invest & explore. Lastly PSU don't incur losses, its only less money earned on fuel.
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Old 22nd November 2013, 16:32   #1289
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Default Re: Rationalising diesel prices. *Update: 50p rise/month announced*

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Originally Posted by tsk1979 View Post
There is no "in effect" here.
Diesel is not subsidized. Its taxed at a lower rate than Petrol. Lower tax does not mean subsidy.
Places where taxes have been removed, petrol can cost as much as diesel(eg Goa)
Okay, but then it is nothing but tax subsidy. Either way it is distortionary, and has the same effect as price subsidy.
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Old 22nd November 2013, 17:57   #1290
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Originally Posted by dreadknight5 View Post

No it is not a disgrace. You are being biased here. Isn't the luxury car owner paying 30 - 100 times the road tax, Paying way more insurance fees thanks to bad 3rd party insurance policy in India when compared to the 2 wheelers ? Is it fine to milk that kind of money from someone purely because he/she can pay ?
Please don't make random accusations of bias. What has taxation on luxury cars got to do with the price of fuel? Nobody is forcing people to buy luxury cars, they do so because they can afford to. The lower middle class person who rides to work on a 20 year old Chetak has no choice. And for him to pay 85 bucks for fuel while someone in a Merc or BMW shells out 60...what is it if not a disgrace?
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Also, there are 2 wheelers costing 20 lakhs.
There are? How many rich people let alone ordinary people are buying those?
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Compare that with say a middle class family owning a 2nd hand diesel vehicle for say 3 lakhs. How will you picture that in ?
Am lost. Picture it in where?
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According to you, luxury vehicles don't come in petrol version ? This rich man's fuel concept was conceived back in the days when buses/trucks /trains ran on diesel and all other transport ran on petrol. Yeah, back then Owning a 2 Wheeler was considered to be fairly rich.
That is precisely my point. Thanks to diesel engine technology being adopted succesfully by (mostly German) luxury carmakers and buses moving to CNG, the old paradigm is turned on its head. We need policies that are in tune with today, not 10 or 20 years ago.
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How does bringing Diesel Price to Petrol price going to help anyone ( common man) ?

A possible solution from my perspective would be " Ration Fuels for each individual". Implement a slab system , like they do in electricity. The more electricity units you consume , they higher slab rates you pay. So this way, it will be fair system to everyone. The people consuming more Fuel ( say 20-30 liters a month) pay more taxes than people that consume less fuel. Of course the numbers would need to be tweaked
Good luck implementing that.
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