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Old 20th October 2014, 15:40   #1306
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Default Re: Rationalising diesel prices. *Update: 50p rise/month announced*

With Euro 5 looming up (implementation by 2020), most of the PSU refineries will have to build additional units (DHDT and SRU) to make Bharat Standard compliant High Speed Diesel.

I imagine, if by that time the diesel is still unregulated, we will see higher Diesel prices compared to Petrol!
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Old 20th October 2014, 15:43   #1307
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Default Re: Rationalising diesel prices. *Update: 50p rise/month announced*

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Originally Posted by alpha1 View Post
With Euro 5 looming up (implementation by 2020), most of the PSU refineries will have to build additional units (DHDT and SRU) to make Bharat Standard compliant High Speed Diesel.

I imagine, if by that time the diesel is still unregulated, we will see higher Diesel prices compared to Petrol!
It will be interesting if that happens specially in India. We may see more TSI type petrol engine's if diesel starts creeping up above petrol .
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Old 20th October 2014, 18:10   #1308
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Default Re: Rationalising diesel prices. *Update: 50p rise/month announced*

Good move.
Atleast now, people will start buying petrol hatches and sedans. They'll be less of a burden on the environment.

Only problem I see is that prices of all our commodities will increase(unfortunately).
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Old 20th October 2014, 18:56   #1309
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Default Re: Rationalising diesel prices. *Update: 50p rise/month announced*

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Good move.
Atleast now, people will start buying petrol hatches and sedans. They'll be less of a burden on the environment.

Only problem I see is that prices of all our commodities will increase(unfortunately).
Well petrol is not any cleaner then Diesel .. Just that carbon soot is replaced by other carcinogens , I am talking about engines of same generation / compliance etc.

Choice is really between respiratory troubles and other kinds of cancers
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Old 22nd October 2014, 00:38   #1310
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Default Re: Rationalising diesel prices. *Update: 50p rise/month announced*

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Originally Posted by TheLizardKing View Post
Bold move, and a much needed one!
  • It is better for the environment.
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Originally Posted by D4D View Post
Good move.
Atleast now, people will start buying petrol hatches and sedans. They'll be less of a burden on the environment.
Not exactly true that petrol cars are better for environment. Both are equally bad. Petrol has more carcinogens while diesel will cause respiratory problems. You have to choose between cancer and asthma. :P

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Originally Posted by alpha1 View Post

I imagine, if by that time the diesel is still unregulated, we will see higher Diesel prices compared to Petrol!
I have my doubts. Diesel and petrol are likely to be at the same price level as is the case with most developed countries. Diesel with better fuel econpmy rate will still be better than petrol in the long run.
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Old 22nd October 2014, 07:39   #1311
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Default Re: Rationalising diesel prices. *Update: 50p rise/month announced*

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Well petrol is not any cleaner then Diesel .. Just that carbon soot is replaced by other carcinogens , I am talking about engines of same generation / compliance etc.
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Originally Posted by subratasenn View Post
Not exactly true that petrol cars are better for environment. Both are equally bad. Petrol has more carcinogens while diesel will cause respiratory problems.
Yes agreed that diesel cars produce more soot than petrols. But in India, with badly maintained diesel engines(mostly CVs), we can be assured of way too much soot (above the limit) from their exhaust. This combined with diesel cars raises the level of soot drastically. Reduction in diesel cars=reduction in soot. But yes, carcinogens will be present.

There's not much to choose from between diesel and petrol in terms of pollution. But we Indians buy diesel cars(read: hatches and sedans) just to see our relatively cheaper diesel bills which makes us happy.

Last edited by Technocrat : 28th October 2014 at 22:58. Reason: Duplicate phrase deleted, thanks
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Old 5th November 2014, 00:13   #1312
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Default Re: Rationalising diesel prices. *Update: 50p rise/month announced*

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Yes agreed that diesel cars produce more soot than petrols. But in India, with badly maintained diesel engines(mostly CVs), we can be assured of way too much soot (above the limit) from their exhaust. This combined with diesel cars raises the level of soot drastically. Reduction in diesel cars=reduction in soot. But yes, carcinogens will be present.

There's not much to choose from between diesel and petrol in terms of pollution. But we Indians buy diesel cars(read: hatches and sedans) just to see our relatively cheaper diesel bills which makes us happy.
Let's look at it from another angle:

Fuel bills are a lot cheaper with Diesel than with Petrol. The difference becomes much larger for in-city driving than for highway driving due to inherent efficiency of diesel engine (limited breathing losses at idle).

How is that relevant to pollution - the bills are far lower simply because the car consumes far less fuel (otherwise at best they would be a little lower). How does that sound to you vis-a-vis overall pollution (including CO2 pollution)?


Between petrol and diesel cars, especially the ones on our roads (with diesels having lesser peak power than their petrol cousins) diesels beat petrols in overall pollution (not the bare-the-threads talk one component at a time type discussion) hands-down.
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Old 5th November 2014, 13:04   #1313
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Default Re: Rationalising diesel prices. *Update: Now Deregulated*

I agree to what Vina has posted, In fact the SC ruling on Diesel ban in Delhi was knee jerk but anyway judges are not supposed to be expert in every domain though in India they think otherwise.

We need to look at total carbon footprint and pollution and not just the visible soot. A new updated pollution norm for all engines with overall lowe emission is much more effective then imposing which fuel should people use.
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Old 5th November 2014, 13:17   #1314
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Default Re: Rationalising diesel prices. *Update: 50p rise/month announced*

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Originally Posted by D4D View Post
Yes agreed that diesel cars produce more soot than petrols. But in India, with badly maintained diesel engines(mostly CVs), we can be assured of way too much soot (above the limit) from their exhaust. This combined with diesel cars raises the level of soot drastically. Reduction in diesel cars=reduction in soot. But yes, carcinogens will be present.

There's not much to choose from between diesel and petrol in terms of pollution. But we Indians buy diesel cars(read: hatches and sedans) just to see our relatively cheaper diesel bills which makes us happy.
I doubt if its as simple as diesel bills. TC Diesels give much more torque and pulling power compared to similar displacement petrol engines in similar price brackets. That is why suddenly the SDE (Small diesel engines) have become popular. Do you think people buy the Swift DDiS for lower fuel costs? Absolutely not. Its for the driving pleasure. Do you think those buying the Audi diesel worry about the fuel bill? I don't think so.

Also, soot = mostly pure carbon. Theoretically I believe pure carbon will be produced upon more complete combustion of fuel? Its not black and white clear that diesels pollute more. Petrol engines would inherently produce more carbon monoxide (CO) compared to diesel I think. Maybe totally wrong - apologies if so. But just because the pollutants from Petrol are invisible, it doesn't mean petrol is greener.

The soot can be controlled with additional DPF - diesel particulate filter & properly disposed off. Nobody bothers about it is a different matter. I think BS5 will have that more enforced.

Additionally, a diesel gives 20kmpl compared to say 15kmpl of a petrol engine for same run. So in totality, lesser diesel will be used with final pollution being lower.

And finally, the power, low rpm output and overall long distance heavy load pulling power of the diesel (with economy) cannot be matched with petrol. The heavy vehicles will always have to run on the oil engines. This is where the real pollution control needs to be implemented because the ill-maintained and abused engines are doing the real damage and PUC certificate is a mockery.


And it seems we've veered off topic! Apologies.
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Old 5th November 2014, 14:53   #1315
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Default Re: Rationalising diesel prices. *Update: Now Deregulated*

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Originally Posted by vina View Post
How is that relevant to pollution - the bills are far lower simply because the car consumes far less fuel (otherwise at best they would be a little lower). How does that sound to you vis-a-vis overall pollution (including CO2 pollution)?

Between petrol and diesel cars, especially the ones on our roads (with diesels having lesser peak power than their petrol cousins) diesels beat petrols in overall pollution (not the bare-the-threads talk one component at a time type discussion) hands-down.
There is one very simple fact that your argument ignores and I have said this many times before in multiple threads: diesel is the densest automotive fuel in terms of energy. Hence per liter it has the most carbon. Therefore, while the density gives diesel awesome fuel efficiency on a per kilometer traveled basis, it is the worst from a per liter burnt perspective. We all know diesel engines are built stronger and last long, therefore over the lifetime of the vehicle a diesel ends up putting more carbon in the air than a petrol one. In India, this is further amplified by the price differential and therefore the human tendency to utilize a cheaper commodity more.

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Originally Posted by Reinhard View Post
Also, soot = mostly pure carbon. Theoretically I believe pure carbon will be produced upon more complete combustion of fuel? Its not black and white clear that diesels pollute more. Petrol engines would inherently produce more carbon monoxide (CO) compared to diesel I think. Maybe totally wrong - apologies if so. But just because the pollutants from Petrol are invisible, it doesn't mean petrol is greener.

The soot can be controlled with additional DPF - diesel particulate filter & properly disposed off. Nobody bothers about it is a different matter. I think BS5 will have that more enforced.
The CO emissions from petrol engines are converted to CO2 because the latter is less poisonous to humans. Also while petrol is not clean by a long shot, it is cleaner than diesel. The reason is that the soot i.e. PM2.5 and PM10 particles put out by diesel tend to hang in the air a lot longer than petrol emissions and worsen low-level air quality - what you and me breathe. Petrol engines (most of them anyway) don't emit particulate matter.

Last edited by StarScream : 5th November 2014 at 14:55.
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Old 5th November 2014, 15:25   #1316
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Default Re: Rationalising diesel prices. *Update: Now Deregulated*

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Originally Posted by StarScream View Post
Hence per liter it has the most carbon. Therefore, while the density gives diesel awesome fuel efficiency on a per kilometer traveled basis, it is the worst from a per liter burnt perspective. We all know diesel engines are built stronger and last long, therefore over the lifetime of the vehicle a diesel ends up putting more carbon in the air than a petrol one. In India, this is further amplified by the price differential and therefore the human tendency to utilize a cheaper commodity more.


Whoa!!
The difference in carbon content is actually quite small.
720gm carbon in 1 liter of diesel and 655gm of carbon in 1 liter of diesel.
However, fuel efficiency is not just due to energy density. Its is also due to higher compression ratio. That is the reasons diesel engines are heavier too.

Engines are Heat engines, so higher compression ratio's mean higher efficiency.
That is the reason, if you take two variants of same vehicle (Diesel and Petrol), the CO2 of the diesel engine/km traveled is lesser than of petrol engines.

Often comparable diesel engines are 25% more efficient(distance traveled/liter of fuel) than petrol engines, In many cases they are actually 40-50% more efficient which easily offsets any increase CO2 due to increased carbon.

Secondly, regarding particulate matter,its job of the Govt to regulate that. Govt can always force EU-IV all over India.

Majority of commercial vehicles in Delhi run very old engines, and often use Kerosene also. Infact, measurements have shown that when trucks pass through the ring road, the particulate matter readings go higher than daytime when most of traffic is passenger petrol/diesel or CNG

Many western countries have majority diesel cars but do not suffer the same pollution mess we have. Its very easy to blame a technology, when the failure is actually in regulation, because the latter actually requires time and effort to fix.
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Old 5th November 2014, 15:46   #1317
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Default Re: Rationalising diesel prices. *Update: Now Deregulated*

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Many western countries have majority diesel cars but do not suffer the same pollution mess we have. Its very easy to blame a technology, when the failure is actually in regulation, because the latter actually requires time and effort to fix.
Whoa!

Who blamed the technology? I stated facts, just as you have to further bolster the points I made. While I agree with you about regulation, the debate was a simple petrol vs diesel emissions one.

I also didn't make any distinction between new/modern diesel engines vs. old/dirtier diesel engines. Incidentally, western countries, chiefly the UK, are waking up to the local air quality problems of diesel emissions despite strong Euro 5+ regulation:

http://www.ecotravel.org.uk/pollution.html
http://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-26257703
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/earth/env...hs-a-year.html

PS - also, while regulation is a govt issue, I can vote to use/buy the lesser of two evils and not contribute as much to the problem, can't I?

Last edited by StarScream : 5th November 2014 at 15:51.
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Old 5th November 2014, 21:04   #1318
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Default Re: Rationalising diesel prices. *Update: Now Deregulated*

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Originally Posted by StarScream View Post

Who blamed the technology? I stated facts, just as you have to further bolster the points I made. While I agree with you about regulation, the debate was a simple petrol vs diesel emissions one.

I also didn't make any distinction between new/modern diesel engines vs. old/dirtier diesel engines. Incidentally, western countries, chiefly the UK, are waking up to the local air quality problems of diesel emissions despite strong Euro 5+ regulation:

http://www.ecotravel.org.uk/pollution.html
http://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-26257703
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/earth/env...hs-a-year.html
What I understand from these articles is this:

UK doesn't adhere to 2010 EU emission norms and goes by their own emission standard set up in 2008, which has caused increase of nitrogen dioxide level in several parts of the country.

As per the telegraph report, entire UK is divided into 43 zones and the EU standards will come into effect in all the regions in 2025 only. Even in London, the emission standards will be implemented in 2015.

No wonder European Commission has initiated legal proceedings against UK.

All your reports only show that air will be more polluted only if you flout the norms.

Again, as TSK says, it doesn't really boil down to diesel vs petrol. Rather implementation of the rules.
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Old 5th November 2014, 22:22   #1319
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Default Re: Rationalising diesel prices. *Update: 50p rise/month announced*

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Originally Posted by Reinhard View Post
those buying the Audi diesel worry about the fuel bill? I don't think so.
I think they are. Else he wouldn't be bothered about diesels. Haven't driven an Audi, but heard from first hand experience that the TFSI engines have insane torque delivery at low RPMs.
[/quote]

Quote:
The soot can be controlled with additional DPF - diesel particulate filter & properly disposed off. Nobody bothers about it is a different matter. I think BS5 will have that more enforced.
Agree with you on that.

Quote:
And finally, the power, low rpm output and overall long distance heavy load pulling power of the diesel (with economy) cannot be matched with petrol. The heavy vehicles will always have to run on the oil engines. This is where the real pollution control needs to be implemented because the ill-maintained and abused engines are doing the real damage and PUC certificate is a mockery.
Yup, the heavy trucks will use diesels. No doubt.
And this will not change for a very long time.
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Old 6th November 2014, 18:36   #1320
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Default Re: Rationalising diesel prices. *Update: Now Deregulated*

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Originally Posted by subratasenn View Post
What I understand from these articles is this:

UK doesn't adhere to 2010 EU emission norms and goes by their own emission standard set up in 2008, which has caused increase of nitrogen dioxide level in several parts of the country.

As per the telegraph report, entire UK is divided into 43 zones and the EU standards will come into effect in all the regions in 2025 only. Even in London, the emission standards will be implemented in 2015.

No wonder European Commission has initiated legal proceedings against UK.

All your reports only show that air will be more polluted only if you flout the norms.

Again, as TSK says, it doesn't really boil down to diesel vs petrol. Rather implementation of the rules.
Before I respond to the specific points raised, I just want to say that it's very apparent that mentioning the truth about diesel on this forum is an extremely unpopular exercise because diesel, just like its pricing, is almost an article of faith for people. But I'm not here to win a beauty contest and I hope this discussion will lead to an intelligent debate that will educate people, me included.

subratasenn, the point of those links was not to compare EU with the UK but a) to address the statement in tsk1979's post that western countries do not suffer the same pollution issues as us despite using diesel and b) to show that if UK, with higher emissions standards than us, is suffering the effects of diesel exhaust then imagine our plight. The EU norms, just like California or Japan, are very far off for us, which is why the UK is such an apt example. Bharat stage V, which is still at least 6 years off, will make very little difference. Hence hoping that regulation will miraculously improve the situation is a fallacy.

Mind you, none of this information about diesel was known to me before I did a little research ahead of purchasing a new car. The diesel options were very tempting and the lure of lower running costs even more so. Therefore I really wanted to find a silver lining for diesel but I couldn't.
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