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Old 16th December 2008, 21:31   #76
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Originally Posted by ritz830 View Post
Ok Ok... Enough cheers: Everyone here is my friend. Especially amit, joslic, DCE, and technocrat. I believe my english is good enough for a lay man to understand what I am trying to say.

Do you want Maruti to stop producing atleast the '800' & 'Alto' as a measure to setup standars in the Indian automotive industry?

Just a Plain 'Yes' or 'No' will do...
After reading the whole thread it comes to this Q.
My answer will be a NO.

Because not every 'Common man' can buy a Honda or a Fiat and thats why they buy M800 or an Alto and thats why TATA has launched NANO - plain and simple!
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Old 16th December 2008, 21:45   #77
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After reading the whole thread it comes to this Q.
My answer will be a NO.

Because not every 'Common man' can buy a Honda or a Fiat and thats why they buy M800 or an Alto and thats why TATA has launched NANO - plain and simple!
Tata Nano is much safer car than 800/Alto. It has been tested for safety in the Tata's crash test facility(first and only one in India). If its not safe then it will not be allowed to be released in England. Even the english test team have replied positive about Nano. The common man deserves better!!!

Last edited by ritz830 : 16th December 2008 at 21:49.
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Old 16th December 2008, 21:53   #78
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Tata Nano is much safer car than 800/Alto. It has been tested for safety in the Tata's crash test facility(first and only one in India). If its not safe then it will not be allowed to be released in England. Even the english test team have replied positive about Nano. The common man deserves better!!!
Let Nano come on roads first. Then we'll see.

Can "the common man" have Altos and M800s till then sir

Last edited by joslicx : 16th December 2008 at 21:55.
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Old 16th December 2008, 22:04   #79
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Let Nano come on roads first. Then we'll see.

Can "the common man" have Altos and M800s till then sir

Ask the question to the common man

And, why not? people in India like us deserve better while we give our land, tax money, cheap skilled labor to help the car manufacturers. And these manufacturers take the benefit and export cheap but quality cars to other nations?
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Old 16th December 2008, 23:10   #80
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I actually drive an Alto (for last 3 years) and am very happy with it. It gives me good FE (15 with AC and 18 without - in city), is quite nippy to drive in the city - I can negotiate thru small lanes and all, easy to park as well, reliable so far (not a single breakdown in all of 25k KMs), has AC and power steering - the only two essentials as far as driving is concerned (rest all is luxury) and since I am single so no issues with lack of space (which is what lot of people complain about!) It cost me only 3 lakh rupees.
Now you tell me what other car is there that could have provided me all this for less than 3 lakh rupees ??
Joslicx, I agree with you on alto. Think about the ROI, is it not ripping the people with 25 years old model ? Maruti should have moved ahead with new products. Qualis was selling high when Innova was introduced, but still Toyota stopped producing and offerred new model, though Innova is previous generation Sienna in US.
I wonder how cars in India cost such a fortune , when they are produced in India? the same car costs much less in US, seems to be a cartel
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Old 17th December 2008, 09:32   #81
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Whether the M800 should be discontinued or not will be decided by the market segment that it caters to. And not by a few guys here tapping away at the keyboards and who in all probability are not going to buy it anyway. So, it is not a objective type Yes/No question, but something the market forces will eventually decide.

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Originally Posted by harry10
Because not every 'Common man' can buy a Honda or a Fiat and thats why they buy M800 or an Alto and thats why TATA has launched NANO - plain and simple!
Very true. Also, it is not just about a person with only 2-2.5 lakhs to spare for a car. Am not using the term "common man" here, because it does not seem to have a meaning that we all would agree to. There are others who prefer the car for various reasons and buy it instead of buying more costlier cars that they can well afford.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ritz830
Tata Nano is much safer car than 800/Alto. It has been tested for safety in the Tata's crash test facility(first and only one in India). If its not safe then it will not be allowed to be released in England. Even the english test team have replied positive about Nano. The common man deserves better!!!
Let us first have that car on the roads and then talk about it. Even before it is out, already we have talks about it being the most FE, the most safe etc.
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Old 17th December 2008, 09:34   #82
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Originally Posted by ritz830 View Post
Ok Ok... Enough cheers: Everyone here is my friend. Especially amit, joslic, DCE, and technocrat. I believe my english is good enough for a lay man to understand what I am trying to say.

Do you want Maruti to stop producing atleast the '800' & 'Alto' as a measure to setup standars in the Indian automotive industry?

Just a Plain 'Yes' or 'No' will do...
I would say a 'No'. Atleat Maruti offers some cars that are affordable for most people. Until another manufacturer (maybe TATA with its Nano) comes along, we need some company to keep this gap plugged for the sake of the 'common man'.
Maruti is not here for charitable purposes. It is here to make profit. Since people are lapping up the M800 and the Alto even years after they have been outdated/unsafe, it would make no business sense to lose out on the market share.
I agree as the resident car manufacturer, Maruti, which has enjoyed a lot of benefits by setting up shop here, the people should be getting better vehicles after good R&D. But wait, havent we got the A-Star, the Swift and the SX4 to prove that point!
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Old 17th December 2008, 10:28   #83
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Originally Posted by Dine View Post
Joslicx, I agree with you on alto. Think about the ROI, is it not ripping the people with 25 years old model ? Maruti should have moved ahead with new products. Qualis was selling high when Innova was introduced, but still Toyota stopped producing and offerred new model, though Innova is previous generation Sienna in US.
I wonder how cars in India cost such a fortune , when they are produced in India? the same car costs much less in US, seems to be a cartel
Yes you are right , It is a cartel and Honda , Skoda etc are worst culprit in terms of price and Maruti in terms of features it rolls out. To this extent I agree with the thread that consumers deserve better and cartels should be broken but forcing Maruti to discontinue M800 while allowing Honda to sell cars at double the price of International market is not the right way.
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Old 17th December 2008, 10:54   #84
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Yes you are right , It is a cartel and Honda , Skoda etc are worst culprit in terms of price and Maruti in terms of features it rolls out. To this extent I agree with the thread that consumers deserve better and cartels should be broken but forcing Maruti to discontinue M800 while allowing Honda to sell cars at double the price of International market is not the right way.
Hi amit. Good morning

About Honda double pricing - its because of the 103% import duty which the Indian government has levied on foreign made cars (also this applies to CBU assembled in India). This means if something costs 100rs abroad, and when you bring it to India it will cost 203rs.
This is the main reason Toyota and many other car manufacturers have shun away from introducing the latest cars i.e global releases.

If we had convinced Honda or any other intelligent car manufacturer (Citroen) to setup industry in India like Hyundai Inc. Then for sure, in this span of 25 years, they would have come up with a modern car suitable very much for Indian roads.

Some more info:
- Citroen holds the patent for Hydro pneumatic suspension system since 1955. I think this is THE technology which Indian roads need. Do you all remember the gliding ride in Volvo buses?
- Fiat 500 cost 7 lakhs actual price and Fiat Palio spares are mostly imported, which is the reason for the high spare-parts pricing and delays in parts dispatch. Linea/Gpunto are Indian made, so no more delays or costly spares.
- Same goes for Chevy Captiva or any other car which costs double the actual pricing.
- Honda civic costs around 8 lakhs in USA

Last edited by ritz830 : 17th December 2008 at 11:10.
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Old 17th December 2008, 11:41   #85
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Originally Posted by ritz830 View Post
Hi amit. Good morning

About Honda double pricing - its because of the 103% import duty which the Indian government has levied on foreign made cars (also this applies to CBU assembled in India). This means if something costs 100rs abroad, and when you bring it to India it will cost 203rs.
This is the main reason Toyota and many other car manufacturers have shun away from introducing the latest cars i.e global releases.
I thought Honda had a factory in India! I stand corrected! Thanks.

Quote:
If we had convinced Honda or any other intelligent car manufacturer (Citroen) to setup industry in India like Hyundai Inc. Then for sure, in this span of 25 years, they would have come up with a modern car suitable very much for Indian roads.
Arent Swift, SX4, A* modern enough? And also suitable for Indian roads?

Quote:
- Fiat 500 cost 7 lakhs actual price and Fiat Palio spares are mostly imported, which is the reason for the high spare-parts pricing and delays in parts dispatch. Linea/Gpunto are Indian made, so no more delays or costly spares.
Let Linea\GP come on roads first my man!!! Why count chickens that arent even hatched yet? We will know how good or bad they are only when they start running on our roads!

Quote:
- Same goes for Chevy Captiva or any other car which costs double the actual pricing.
- Honda civic costs around 8 lakhs in USA
I dont really buy this argument of yours. I dont care if X car maker gets the car from abroad or manufacturers it here. All I care for is if the price is worth it! Honda sells different Civic and Accord (from the ones in US/Europe), Toyota sells different Camry from rest of the world, Ford sells a different Fiesta here from rest of the world, GM sells outdated Aveo & UVA & Optra, and I dont know much about higher priced luxury cars as I am not at all interested in them (read I cant afford them!). All these carmakers of international repute sell us older stuff which is overpriced as well.
At least Maruti and Hyundai have tried to give us contemporary cars and not treated us as third world citizens...
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Old 17th December 2008, 11:42   #86
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Maruti is not here for charitable purposes. It is here to make profit. Since people are lapping up the M800 and the Alto even years after they have been outdated/unsafe, it would make no business sense to lose out on the market share.
......
Havent we got the A-Star, the Swift and the SX4 to prove that point!
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Originally Posted by supremeBaleno View Post
Whether the M800 should be discontinued or not will be decided by the market segment that it caters to. And not by a few guys here tapping away at the keyboards and who in all probability are not going to buy it anyway. So, it is not a objective type Yes/No question, but something the market forces will eventually decide.

.....
Let us first have that car on the roads and then talk about it. Even before it is out, already we have talks about it being the most FE, the most safe etc.

Its my freedom of speech to talk about maruti and give out suggestions for its improvement as it is an Indian company. Also, I will point out things like the "Monopoly which Maruti Enjoys".

The 103% import tax duty was meant to safeguard Maruti from competition. Hence to provide a free environment for it to keep producing good cars suited for India. This whole logic was forgotten after release of M800.

If you say A-star is designed for India. I disagree, its is not suitable for India and made completely to suit the European customers. And It was made cheaply in India as to compete better in Europe.

And still you guys want Tata to produce the common man's car for 2008 while maruti has sit idle all these years without making any valuable improvements to its Maruti 800 and siblings which where both released way back on 1978?

Last edited by ritz830 : 17th December 2008 at 11:46.
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Old 17th December 2008, 11:54   #87
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Originally Posted by joslicx View Post
I thought Honda had a factory in India! I stand corrected! Thanks.

Arent Swift, SX4, A* modern enough? And also suitable for Indian roads?


Let Linea\GP come on roads first my man!!! Why count chickens that arent even hatched yet? We will know how good or bad they are only when they start running on our roads!

I dont really buy this argument of yours. I dont care if X car maker gets the car from abroad or manufacturers it here. All I care for is if the price is worth it! Honda sells different Civic and Accord (from the ones in US/Europe)
Dude. Are you serious that you really do not understand my words?

- Honda cars are CBU. So the import duty applies.

- And, did you say "Count the chickens before they hatch??" What thee... are your words doing any good for improvement in technology and living standards?

- You said "All you care is the price worth it". - We are discussing about common mans car. How will other manufacturers be able to provide a competitive price when you have given so much benefits to maruti.
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Old 17th December 2008, 12:03   #88
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Originally Posted by ritz830 View Post

- Honda cars are CBU. So the import duty applies.
They have a factory in India. What stops them from manufacturing?

Quote:
- And, did you say "Count the chickens before they hatch??" What thee... are your words doing any good for improvement in technology and living standards?
I am not really a mechanical engineer. Nothing I could do or say can improve technology and living conditions. I didnt get what you are implying here?
Quote:
- You said "All you care is the price worth it". - We are discussing about common mans car. How will other manufacturers be able to provide a competitive price when you have given so much benefits to maruti.
So what stops others, billion dollar companies they are, from setting up a manufacturing base and giving us their latest cars?
And seriously I do dream of a day when not an Alto/M800 but an Accord would be a common man's car in India. But then, I wake up...
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Old 17th December 2008, 12:26   #89
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@joslicx

You want those billion dollar companies to do what Hyundai is doing rite now? These companies are estabilished and have no competition due to their advanced technology. To get them here, we have to attract them by willingly going forward and talking to them, giving benefits which suit them.

The reason why Hyundai has grown so much in the past few year is also due to India. Hyundai is a growing company and it has willingly come to India to setup its base. But in case of citroen, toyota, Honda, they are on the giving side and we should go forward and bring them in.

If Proton, Hyundai, and chinese maufacturers can deliver good modern products to their native people(common man), then why is maruti still sticking to 800/Alto?

Last edited by ritz830 : 17th December 2008 at 12:28.
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Old 17th December 2008, 12:29   #90
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Originally Posted by ritz830
Its my freedom of speech to talk about maruti and give out suggestions for its improvement as it is an Indian company. Also, I will point out things like the "Monopoly which Maruti Enjoys".
Sure you are free to talk, who denied you that ? If you think Maruti enjoys a monopoly today, you need to look up the definition of the term again. The Indian car market today is not a monopolistic market today, by any stretch of imagination. MSIL might be having the highest market share today, but that does not make them a monopoly.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ritz830
And still you guys want Tata to produce the common man's car for 2008 while maruti has sit idle all these years without making any valuable improvements to its Maruti 800 and siblings which where both released way back on 1978?
It gets a lot of publicity when a manufacturer proclaims that he is building a small car which is the cheapest in the world, but offers stuff that is there in much costlier cars. But the proof of the pudding is in the eating, not in press releases. If you have trawled around enough on this forum, you would have come across umpteen threads that are devoted to issues that crop up in Tata's costlier models, even their top-end SUV. When that is the case, would you expect people to believe that their cost-cutting-to-the-extreme exercise called the Nano will be troublefree? Yeah, sure, with a truckload of salt. The M800 might be here from decades ago, but atleast it runs without issues for years.

On a different note, on this thread you elaborated a lot about what all should be in a common man's car - airbags, ABS, EuroNCAP crash ratings, this, that etc and how MSIL sucks because the Alto and M800 don't have these. But when it came to your car search in another thread, you conveniently forgot about the need for all these attributes in your car and the candidates you shortlisted were the Spark and Palio, especially the lower trim levels. I do not see many of these "common man's car" attributes in them. And while here you ask for latest models, you were OK with a rebadged-Matiz and around-for-years Palio. So is that you have 2 logics - one for the so-called common man, and one for you ? I guess you need to walk your talk, man.

It is easy to say, "Hey give me airbags, ABS etc in all cars", but tough to shell out the extra dough that they add to the car's price. And we can see this clearly in the sales figures of cars that offer these in certain trim levels. The common man usually avoids those models like the plague - just because they cost more.
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