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Old 17th December 2008, 12:31   #91
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Originally Posted by ritz830 View Post
Do you want Maruti to stop producing atleast the '800' & 'Alto' as a measure to setup standars in the Indian automotive industry?

Just a Plain 'Yes' or 'No' will do...
NO

Ritz I am afraid that to prove your point you are discussing unrelated issues.

You complain that Maruti is giving substandard products to which even if I agree Do you justify the higher prices demanded by other makers, dont give me the import thing, it applies to Maruti as well & thats why the Grand Vitara costs so much. If it was so simple to give high value goods at cheaper rates why haven't Honda done that they have been in India long enough to have full indigenous manufacturing unit for their Imported cars.

Why is GM struggling to use a common brand after all these years?

I am not expecting an answer as it will lead to another round of discussion which would have no relation to the problem that you have with Maruti.
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Old 17th December 2008, 12:40   #92
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Originally Posted by ritz830 View Post

- Honda cars are CBU. So the import duty applies.
OMG. Is it so? I didn't know that I was so ignorant.
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Old 17th December 2008, 13:00   #93
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sure you know to walk and talk fluently in English and as you claim I dont "walk the talk". Dear friend, Let us now talk the facts.

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Originally Posted by supremeBaleno View Post
Sure you are free to talk, who denied you that ? If you think Maruti enjoys a monopoly today, you need to look up the definition of the term again.
Monopoly - Monopoly - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
I think I am right in the case of 800/Alto from whats stated in Wikipedia.

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Originally Posted by supremeBaleno View Post
you shortlisted were the Spark and Palio, especially the lower trim levels. I do not see many of these "common man's car" attributes in them. And while here you ask for latest models, you were OK with a rebadged-Matiz and around-for-years Palio. So is that you have 2 logics - one for the so-called common man, and one for you ? I guess you need to walk your talk, man.
Let me bring back what I said before. Hope its crystal clear for everyone here.

Features listed according to priority
- Euro NCAP safety rating (or something similar) which is a must. Anything equal or less than 2 star means you are dead after a head on crash.
- cruising at 80kmpl and above speeds with safety and stability
- better and advance suspension which you see in all cars of today. Maruti is the worst in this, I find no difference riding in 800, swift and a-star. Only difference between the trio is noise damping & tire size.
- acceptable build quality and quality of plastics.
- noise damping, power steering, average aesthetics.
- Safety beams in pillars, which is a must and available in all motorized vehicles of today.
- option for airbags and abs

I mentioned Airbags/Abs as options and put it as the last criterion. But, the first feature I suggested was the NCAP safety rating. and you also missed other more important features other than Abs/airbags.

About Fiat Palio and Spark.
- Both are safer cars. Spark has 3 star NCAP rating.
- they can cruise at 140kmph with at most stability
- they have noise damping and average aesthetics and build quality
- Palio ride quality is good and so is Spark comparable.
- Both have safety beams in pillars
- Spark has options for Airbags and abs for all models. I think Palio does not have it

At least one should be happy that these cars have most of the modern features. Wish we have these features as a standard in common man car.
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Old 17th December 2008, 13:06   #94
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Originally Posted by ritz830 View Post
About Fiat Palio and Spark.
- Both are safer cars. Spark has 3 star NCAP rating.
- they can cruise at 140kmph with at most stability
- they have noise damping and average aesthetics and build quality
- Palio ride quality is good and so is Spark comparable.
- Both have safety beams in pillars
- Spark has options for Airbags and abs for all models. I think Palio does not have it
This is a free market. Maruti can't stop others from coming up with cars that cost less then 3 lakh.

Its for buyers to decide if they want Palio / Spark/ Alto/ 800 or Nano

If people value these features, they will switch to other models.
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Old 17th December 2008, 13:19   #95
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Techno my friend. Hear me or not, just let me put what others may read.
How would it be unrelated when my whole thread was about Maruti being a repairman and deceiving us with its A.S.S talents.
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Originally Posted by Dine View Post
Joslicx, I agree with you on alto. Think about the ROI, is it not ripping the people with 25 years old model ? Maruti should have moved ahead with new products. Qualis was selling high when Innova was introduced, but still Toyota stopped producing and offerred new model, though Innova is previous generation Sienna in US.
I wonder how cars in India cost such a fortune , when they are produced in India? the same car costs much less in US, seems to be a cartel
The 800/Alto are running for so long just because Maruti makes it to work. As DINE rightly put, look at the ROI which maruti enjoys just because outdated 800 and Alto are in production even now. And the Toyota example is a very valid one.

If I was a trained mechanic then even I can keep the impala/fiat padmini oldies look new even now. But is that good for the modern common man?. We need in house talent to produce a better common man car.

Again Suzuki, Toyota, Hyundai, kia, Porton, server as role models in their home land. They too produce cheap cars and at a affordable price for their homeland.

If you still wanna disregard the safety & decent driving comfort in the name of "hamara maruti" the cheapest car with best A.S.S. Sorry to say this, but its only we indians who finnally get brainwashed.
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Old 17th December 2008, 13:21   #96
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Originally Posted by NetfreakBombay View Post
This is a free market. Maruti can't stop others from coming up with cars that cost less then 3 lakh.

Its for buyers to decide if they want Palio / Spark/ Alto/ 800 or Nano

If people value these features, they will switch to other models.
Exactly! My point is that this is a demand-supply equation. As long as the public will keep wanting these cars (Alto/M800) Maruti will keep supplying them.
A lot of features were listed that should be a must for the 'common man's' car like (NCAP safety, comfortable crusing, etc). I agree that Indians should get these features at the most affordable price but unless we stop the demand for the existing cars that do not have such features the companies will continue producing them.
If tomorrow the common man stops buying an Alto/M800 for lack of safety and features, Maruti will have to discontinue it and get something that satisfies what the customer wants. However, this is not happening as yet! The common man is quite happy with the Alto/M800 (the sales reinforce this fact.)

On the topic about Citreon, etc. setting up shop in India, I'm pretty sure that there are a lot of considerations that are required both from our govt. and the company wanting to invest. We have seen FIAT setting up shop, Honda setting up a factory and Hyundai producing in India. It's happening but slowly because the mindset is changing towards acceptance of other brands.
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Old 17th December 2008, 13:30   #97
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I do believe maruti has good cars, but one question always bothered me. When TATA could produce an almost 800 equivalent car in 2009 for a Lac rupees, how come Maruti priced/prices 800 to the price that it had/has with all the benefits it had/has.

This is indeed a nice discussion although sometimes looks like drifting.
I feel this thread is terribly imbalanced with only Ritz being on one side and rest of the world on the other. However, I really appreciate Ritz for taking on all of them and still going strong.
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Old 17th December 2008, 13:34   #98
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Originally Posted by ritz830 View Post
Hi amit. Good morning

About Honda double pricing - its because of the 103% import duty which the Indian government has levied on foreign made cars (also this applies to CBU assembled in India). This means if something costs 100rs abroad, and when you bring it to India it will cost 203rs.
Honda has factory in Surajpur Noida and Honda cars are not CBU , They source components for City , Civic , CR - V locally and few components are imported as is the case with Fiat , Maruti or GM .

I know internals of Honda Siel Cars Ltd. quite in detail from some one very close to me. Also if you have some acccess to marketing texts study premium pricing strategy to understand why Honda and Skoda are doing this in India.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ritz830 View Post
This is the main reason Toyota and many other car manufacturers have shun away from introducing the latest cars i.e global releases.

If we had convinced Honda or any other intelligent car manufacturer (Citroen) to setup industry in India like Hyundai Inc. Then for sure, in this span of 25 years, they would have come up with a modern car suitable very much for Indian roads.
Toyota has a factory near to Bidadi in Bangalore and most components are locally sourced for Innova and other cars. Toyota does not introduce new vehicles as an strategy they want to earn premium pricing for Camary and Corolla which is Taxi material elsewhere even bread and butter Innova is 10 L + here, The logic is simple if you can earn same profit selling 1 car why to take pain of producing 5 and selling them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ritz830 View Post
Some more info:
- Citroen holds the patent for Hydro pneumatic suspension system since 1955. I think this is THE technology which Indian roads need. Do you all remember the gliding ride in Volvo buses?
- Fiat 500 cost 7 lakhs actual price and Fiat Palio spares are mostly imported, which is the reason for the high spare-parts pricing and delays in parts dispatch. Linea/Gpunto are Indian made, so no more delays or costly spares.
- Same goes for Chevy Captiva or any other car which costs double the actual pricing.
- Honda civic costs around 8 lakhs in USA
Thanks and now some more info for you ,
1. No one forced FIAT to import S 500 as CBU they can import CKD assemble here and enjoy tax benefit like Maruti very well , It was a stupid on part of FIAT marketing guys to position S 500 in upper premium segment , Same goes for Chevy Captiva.

2. Patent Validity in any market is 20 Years so 1955 patent should be open long back , i hold few patents myself ( in entirely different domain) and know very well about the patent laws. Even if a company is holding patent others can license and pay royalty as is the norm in Industry very few patents are absolute IP from grounds up which companies may like to keep a guarded secret to monopolize , because it is foolish to do so alternative technology can be developed by competition very soon so patents are mostly used as bargaining tool and exchanged.

2. India is now one of the big and cheapest hub for auto components , The reason Palio parts may be imported is just because FIAT never thought of creating local base and A.S.S strategy and thats why FIAT failed to capture market. You need to ask GM and FORD on how many parts they source locally and also need to check export orders of OEM suppliers to developed market although GM and Ford are not a good example in times of rescission and impending bankruptcy due to US sub prime crisis.

Last edited by amitk26 : 17th December 2008 at 13:38.
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Old 17th December 2008, 13:56   #99
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ritz830 View Post
Features listed according to priority
- Euro NCAP safety rating (or something similar) which is a must. Anything equal or less than 2 star means you are dead after a head on crash.
- cruising at 80kmpl and above speeds with safety and stability
- better and advance suspension which you see in all cars of today. Maruti is the worst in this, I find no difference riding in 800, swift and a-star. Only difference between the trio is noise damping & tire size.
- acceptable build quality and quality of plastics.
- noise damping, power steering, average aesthetics.
- Safety beams in pillars, which is a must and available in all motorized vehicles of today.
- option for airbags and abs
I tell you what, you conveniently forgot the most important points for the common man:

- Engine having bullet proof reliability without having to compromise on Performance.
- Good Fuel efficiency (specially in times of economic turbulence)
- Excellent after sales service
- Availability of cheap and readily available spare parts
- Having a good resale value
- Last but not the least, peace of mind!

Last edited by DCEite : 17th December 2008 at 14:01.
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Old 17th December 2008, 14:03   #100
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Originally Posted by ritz830 View Post
Honda cars are CBU.
Wrong! Honda assembles the City, Civic, Accord locally. Only the CR-V is CBU.
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Old 17th December 2008, 14:19   #101
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ritz830 View Post
Features listed according to priority
- Euro NCAP safety rating (or something similar) which is a must. Anything equal or less than 2 star means you are dead after a head on crash.
- cruising at 80kmpl and above speeds with safety and stability
- better and advance suspension which you see in all cars of today. Maruti is the worst in this, I find no difference riding in 800, swift and a-star. Only difference between the trio is noise damping & tire size.
- acceptable build quality and quality of plastics.
- noise damping, power steering, average aesthetics.
- Safety beams in pillars, which is a must and available in all motorized vehicles of today.
- option for airbags and abs
- You should ask the Indian government to set up standards for crash testing and ask all manufacturers to comply. If some cars have good NCAP rating, that is because they may also be selling them in other countries where they have to meet such standards

- I definitely find some difference between the ride quality of a Maruti 800 and Swift.

- Almost all the cars in India have McPherson Strut and coil spring suspension set up at the front and another coil spring suspension set up at the back along with a torsion axle. Some add torsion bars. So what is the advanced suspension setup in all other cars that you are talking about. The Chevy Spark and Maruti 800 have very similar suspension setup for that matter.

I do agree the quality of plastics etc. can be improved by Maruti. They could also improve the final fit and finish of their products.

Last edited by pjbiju : 17th December 2008 at 14:31.
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Old 17th December 2008, 15:15   #102
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Hope, Everyone reads atleast this particular post to the full. I bet most of you guys are happy to talk off-topic and go away from what this thread is all about.

Let me give some analogies to your OFF-TOPIC discussions

When I say XYZ Indian company should stop producing Asbestos sheets atleast from now, considerig its cancer causing effects. You will reply saying XYZ company also manufactuers modern plastic sheets and dont even care to support the the idea of avoiding asbestos sheets. While some even go to point of prefering asbestos because its cheap and is doing good buisness in India.

@Amit, about the citroen patents.
When I say "XYZ person has been eating apples everyday for the past 5 years, you reply saying that apples are perishable products which only last for a few days".
Havnt you considered the advancement in technology and automotaically more patents will be filled. And, really who cares about the patent expiry date man. You missed the whole point of the thread i.e 800/Alto are outdated.

I said Honda cars are CBU because I answered to Amits question about double pricing of certain honda cars. And now look at your discussions. You just cut an paste a small part of my sentence and start discussing about Honda siel, Fabia, overprcing, CBU, CKT... Whats the big difference man anyway. CBU tax is just 40% more the CKT, and both are comparatively really high.

@DCELite. those important points about a common man's car where devised on 1983. Its 2008, and time to add some better points.

Finally, please stop finding errors in my text after reading them in bits and pieces amd start discussing useful facts which offer to improve the quality of life i.e standard of Indian living.

Last edited by Technocrat : 17th December 2008 at 17:08. Reason: Please avoid, posting long sentences in Bold, for the benefit of other community members, thanks
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Old 17th December 2008, 15:51   #103
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I agree with the larger community here that people, the "common man", usually has things that are more inline with his day to day requirement, such as maintenance, FE, reliability and so on, rather than ABS, airbag, EPS, traction control and so on. Hell, most of our first time buyers would not even have heard of most of these terms.

But, from what I believe understand Ritz is trying to say is that, Maruti, for being the 'Godzilla' of India in terms of vehicles on road and presence and all that, have failed to deliver. Yes, they are giving value for money (debatable!) and reliable (true) vehicles. But is that enough?

We all know that all cars started coming with seat belts due to the gov ruling. So, it is that all car manufacturers need to give us safety option only if the gov intervenes? I do not think so. Maruti is in such a enviable position that they could have really raised the standards, but no, what they did is to keep it low, that gave later entrants the low bench mark for them to beat!

Let take the case of Honda who has now come out with ABS as a standard fitment - now that is something that would be remembered a long time. Now that is a bench mark.

When a company as Maruti, which was given the best acceptance by all our "common man", did not bother to do give back the same respect to its customers, that is not good.

It all boils down to how satisified (in terms of the car you drive!) you are. Now, unless one gets into a critical situation, we never think of the need for any safety feature. We have seen more than enough examples over here at T-BHP where people have mentioned that they now feel, after a close call or accident, that they have gone for a vehicle with better safety feature and also people who have justified their expense for the model with safety feature brought at a premium than the base model after some similar bad events. Why does it take a shock to get us to make a better decision? Why do we settle for something less when we are worth more? Cutting corners for a small change in comparison with the peace of mind and the cover it might provide in times of need or the comfort that one can have! (I am also guilty as charged here! )

Similar lines of argument, as above, for comfort features availability across variants & models.

So, unless we (the common people) decide that we should be served better pudding, we are going to get the same old porridge in different shaped vessels and in different color and not necessarily something you might like. Spot on, Ritz!
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Old 17th December 2008, 16:02   #104
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Originally Posted by HappyWheels View Post



Let take the case of Honda who has now come out with ABS as a standard fitment - now that is something that would be remembered a long time. Now that is a bench mark.
Man do Honda have a 3lakh rupee car in India???
For 2/3 lakh rupees it is not possible to provide all these features. There is no free lunch here. Margins for these cars are extremely small (I have read at many places that Tatas are not going to make money on Nano at 1l price and hence their demands for free land, duty exemptions etc). Right now M800 and Alto are the cheapest cars in the world. But they are cheap coz they are bare minimum.
And almost all recent Maruti vehicles have ABS Airbags etc models. People willing to pay price for safety are welcome to go for them.
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Old 17th December 2008, 16:03   #105
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Mr Ritz, what I still don't understand is why you are selectively attacking Maruti only, for their so called "outdated" models.

1. Almost all car manufacturers in India are producing some of their old models. Maruti also produce some of their old models along with the latest ones.

2. Hyundai is still selling Santro. What Santro base model have, that an Alto don't have?

3. What you have in the base model of Chevrolet Spark? Options, and nothing else!

3. Before the launch of SX4, what safety features Honda were offering in City? SX4, when launched, set a bench mark in C segment.

4. HM-Mitsubishi produces 3 generations of Pajero here!

5. Stoping the production of basic cars having a 2-lakh price range, will not make all the buyers to go for high-end models. Many in India buy car on loans. So, they will surely be cost sensitive. Such a stoppage will definitely result in drop in car sales, and nothing else! (May be, it will allow your favorite car manufacturer to be number:1 in India )

6. Car manufacturers all over the world have developed over a long long time - not by a midnight or 10 / 20 years. Many have 50-60 years of background. Maruti will surely develop, with such a huge customer relationship. It already have started designing and developing cars in-house.

7. Did you think about what those car companies (having 50-60 years of experience) are doing in India? Still many are struggling for establishment and existence. And many have now only identified what India is capable of!

.
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