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Old 17th December 2008, 19:48   #121
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The point is that most choices in life are comparitive and not absolute.

For someone having only a bike, an M800 is a comparitively very safe option in case of accidents. And for someone having an M800, maybe a Swift/SX4 having airbags is a comparitively safer option. And unless they have airbags on them, I don't think any of the in-between stuff like Spark/Santro/Palio can claim to be a safer bet than an Alto, just because of more body metal. Tank-like-build is not proven to save lives in accidents, while airbags do.
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Old 17th December 2008, 20:24   #122
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Quote:
Originally Posted by supremeBaleno View Post
The point is that most choices in life are comparitive and not absolute.

For someone having only a bike, an M800 is a comparitively very safe option in case of accidents. And for someone having an M800, maybe a Swift/SX4 having airbags is a comparitively safer option. And unless they have airbags on them, I don't think any of the in-between stuff like Spark/Santro/Palio can claim to be a safer bet than an Alto, just because of more body metal. Tank-like-build is not proven to save lives in accidents, while airbags do.
Exactly! This is a fitting reply to Ritz's point also.

.
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Old 17th December 2008, 21:53   #123
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People should stop harping about non-issues.
What monopoly is Maruti employing to keep an Iron grip on the market?
If the vehicle satisfies the requirments of a buyer, and he likes it, he buys it. Simple.
There are a lot more maruti buyers than any other manufacturers.
When there is a viable alternative to the M800 and Alto, people will start buying them. Where are they?
Suddenly... its maruti's fault that the other companies are not providing enough competition! Weird Thread

BTW,Maruti has excellent competition from Hyundai and Tata. The other manufacturers seem to be just killing time rather than making serious attempts in the Small car segment.
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Old 17th December 2008, 22:34   #124
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rippergeo View Post
People should stop harping about non-issues.
What monopoly is Maruti employing to keep an Iron grip on the market?
, How can anyone employ monopoly??? monopoly is just an economic term to define the sole manufacturer in a segment.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rippergeo View Post
BTW,Maruti has excellent competition from Hyundai and Tata. The other manufacturers seem to be just killing time rather than making serious attempts in the Small car segment.
we are talking about common man cars. 800/Alto.
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Old 17th December 2008, 23:52   #125
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Quote:
Originally Posted by [B
supremeBaleno[/b]]
The point is that most choices in life are comparitive and not absolute.

For someone having only a bike, an M800 is a comparitively very safe option in case of accidents....
, You forgot to compare the 3 wheeled autos for better safety.

Nokia case:
Even today there is no rule preventing Nokia from selling those outdated brick sized mobile phones. Those old phones can be priced a few hundreds less and put for sale. Also they are very easy to repair and maintain. The poor common man of India, who knows nothing about mobiles will obviously choose that old model because it costs a few hundreds less and its cheap to maintain.

But Nokia did not do that because it wanted to offer better products to its loyal customers and set standards in the Indian industry. Nokia phones kept improving on technology and at the same time affordable. They serve as role models for every other new cell phone manufacturer who enters India for doing business.

There is a direct relationship between the cheapest model in the market and the costliest model in the market. This is because the cheapest model from a reputed manufacturer serves as a benchmark for everyone. Only when the features of the cheapest model is raised will the same happen to the costly model. Else we will be having only the older outdated technology at all segments.
If I am right, Nokia 2600 serves as benchmark today, and the 1100 has been taken out of production.
We should thank Nokia for setting quality benchmarks, but Maruti has failed in this case.

To emphasis more. Today, I can go ahead and BLINDLY buy the cheapest Nokia mobile and am assured that I will be given the latest product. But Maruti which is getting similar loyalty from us, still does not deliver.

Last edited by ritz830 : 18th December 2008 at 00:02.
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Old 18th December 2008, 00:16   #126
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ritz830 View Post
Nokia case:
Even today there is no rule preventing Nokia from selling those outdated brick sized mobile phones. Those old phones can be priced a few hundreds less and put for sale. Also they are very easy to repair and maintain. The poor common man of India, who knows nothing about mobiles will obviously choose that old model because it costs a few hundreds less and its cheap to maintain.

But Nokia did not do that because it wanted to offer better products to its loyal customers and set standards in the Indian industry. Nokia phones kept improving on technology and at the same time affordable. They serve as role models for every other new cell phone manufacturer who enters India for doing business.

There is a direct relationship between the cheapest model in the market and the costliest model in the market. This is because the cheapest model from a reputed manufacturer serves as a benchmark for everyone. Only when the features of the cheapest model is raised will the same happen to the costly model. Else we will be having only the older outdated technology at all segments. We should thank Nokia for not letting this happen, but Maruti has failed in this case.

To emphasis more. Today, I can go ahead and BLINDLY buy the cheapest Nokia mobile and am assured that I will be given the latest product. But Maruti which is getting similar loyalty from us, still does not deliver.
Now, let me ask: who goes off-topic?

Also, are you saying that Nokia gives problem-less products? Even their many middle and high-end models are hanging, hanging and hanging.

Leave the Nokia case. What about the new Honda City (ANHC) launched here? Previous one had a better interior, and the new one's interior is of low quality than the out-going one. Simple reason - cost cutting.
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Old 18th December 2008, 00:19   #127
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ritz830 View Post
,


We should thank Nokia for setting quality benchmarks, but Maruti has failed in this case.

To emphasis more. Today, I can go ahead and BLINDLY buy the cheapest Nokia mobile and am assured that I will be given the latest product. But Maruti which is getting similar loyalty from us, still does not deliver.
Man you are a very "special child" indeed!!! Theres nothing special about the cheapest Nokia phone around!!! In fact there are a lot of chinese models that have far more features for the same price... And Nokia has not set any quality benchmarks either. I bought a new 3120 recently that went kaput within days. I've been unsuccessfuly (so far) fighting with Nokia to replace it for sometime now! So much for their world class quality!

And mobile phone and cars are different things. One is just a 50 dollar thing that you can change even twice a month! Can you say the same for a car?
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Old 18th December 2008, 00:23   #128
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Quote:
Originally Posted by romeomidhun View Post
Now, let me ask: who goes off-topic?

Also, are you saying that Nokia gives problem-less products? Even their many middle and high-end models are hanging, hanging and hanging.

Leave the Nokia case. What about the new Honda City (ANHC) launched here? Previous one had a better interior, and the new one's interior is of low quality than the out-going one. Simple reason - cost cutting.

Dai fraud Romeo!!!! Nokia and Maruti are similar da. Both are industry leaders with big sales figures and having huge number of loyal customers. I pointed out Nokia as an analogy.
OHC and NHC??. I think you are the only person who is unable to appreciate the improvement in technology.
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Old 18th December 2008, 00:41   #129
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joslicx View Post
Man you are a very "special child" indeed!!! Theres nothing special about the cheapest Nokia phone around!!! In fact there are a lot of chinese models that have far more features for the same price... And Nokia has not set any quality benchmarks either.
Mr. Joslics baba. You are comparing a reputed manufactuerer like Nokia with an unreliable and no-name one? Its like comparing Maruti with a tinkering shop.

Quote:
Originally Posted by joslicx View Post
I bought a new 3120 recently that went kaput within days. I've been unsuccessfuly (so far) fighting with Nokia to replace it for sometime now! So much for their world class quality!
Kaput...??? Did you buy it from those no-bill shops (avoiding tax), who advises to go for to cheaper Chinese versions

Quote:
Originally Posted by joslicx
And mobile phone and cars are different things. One is just a 50 dollar thing that you can change even twice a month! Can you say the same for a car?
, Its the car manufacturers who enjoy bigger profit margins and it is very much affordable only for them to offer decent products to its customers.


I bet you both are owning a huge chunk of Maruti shares. You guys always think from the manufacturer perspective. stop this crap and start thinking about what better products to offer to the customer.

Last edited by Technocrat : 18th December 2008 at 11:28. Reason: Post Edited. Smilie usage is restricted to two per post on Team-BHP. Please refrain from using excessive smilies.
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Old 18th December 2008, 09:00   #130
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@ritz, your arguments are becoming more and more ridiculous. You bring in unrelated products like asbestos sheets, mobile phones etc to prove your point which has no basis at all.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ritz830
How can anyone employ monopoly??? ..
It is pretty clear that your knowledge of the word "employ" stops at the standard definition ie. in the context of giving employment. However, your lack of awareness does not prevent an English word from having other meanings, which in this case could also mean "to put to use", which was the context in which rippergeo made that statement.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ritz830
monopoly is just an economic term to define the sole manufacturer in a segment..
Monopoly is about a product/service (say car) and NOT about segments (say A, B segments) within that product/service, like you think.

The Greeks could not have made it any simpler :
monos = single or alone + polein = to sell.
ie. lone seller in a market.

Given the normal definition of monopoly, only a mentally challenged person will say that in the Indian car market of today, MSIL is enjoying a monopoly.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ritz830
, we are talking about common man cars. 800/Alto.
This itself shows how illogical your arguments are. 800/Alto are common man cars. And the Spark/Santro etc which cost just a few thousands more automatically become rich man's car.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ritz830
You forgot to compare the 3 wheeled autos for better safety.
Trust you to come up with such unrelated things. When we are discussing cars, I did not see the need to bring in autos. Maybe as per your logic an auto also comes under cars or maybe you have a separate category for autos - sub-common man car or something.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ritz830
Even today there is no rule preventing Nokia from selling those outdated brick sized mobile phones. Those old phones can be priced a few hundreds less and put for sale. The poor common man of India, who knows nothing about mobiles will obviously choose that old model because it costs a few hundreds less and its cheap to maintain.
Since an 800 is a common man's car as per you and since you own 2 of such cars, I guess you fit your description of the common man. In which case, as per your logic, you will today buy a brick-sized phone if it is available cheap.

But hey, the other common men are not as stupid in their purchase behaviour. When cellphones first came to India, my boss had a real big brick phone, which was a big deal then. The office boys at my workplace might not be very educated or well-read or earning fancy salaries, but I can bet that they will not even touch that phone with a bargepole, let alone buy it.

So, please stop your condescending attitude to Indian customers. Just because you do not have the sense to avoid purchasing something you think is not worth the money, does not mean all Indian customers are as irrational as you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ritz830
the cheapest model from a reputed manufacturer serves as a benchmark for everyone. Only when the features of the cheapest model is raised will the same happen to the costly model. Else we will be having only the older outdated technology at all segments.
Yeah, right. When Apple came out with the iPhone, the first thing their engineers did was to come to India and locate the cheapest Nokia phone and admire all the features in it - after all that is the benchmark against which they are pitted. And with that valuable inspiration, they went back to their drawing boards and came up with the iPhone. Give me a break.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ritz830
stop this crap and start thinking about what better products to offer to the customer.
Excuse me! That is for the manufacturer to worry about, not us.

And BTW, if there is something that really fits the definition of crap, it would be the illogical arguments that you put forth in this thread.
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Old 18th December 2008, 09:22   #131
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@ritz

Good Morning

I understand the fact that Maruti has not been able to bring in quality products for the common man. However, as a lot of people on this thread have stated, they are far from running a monopoly.

You are hell-bent on critising Maruti. Lets take your example of Nokia. Earlier Motorola used be the #1 manufacturer for telecommunications devices and had a major chunk of the market. Come Nokia, the trend changed and it became #1.

Same analogy goes here too. Maruti replaced PAL/HM. Who is stopping other manufacturers to do so? Even after 20 years and countless manufacturers, the trend is still the same. The Spark/Santro has bitten a sizeable chunk of the M800/Zen/Alto sales but has not managed to oust Maruti from that segment.

No one is stopping other manufacturers to better Maruti and since Maruti is not facing any major pressure, why should they opt out of a winning strategy?

As for setting the benchmark, they have done so. You cannot ignore the reliability, the affordability and the ease of travel that Maruti ushered into the automotive era of the early 90s.
Even today, with every model they offer something that forces the competition to rethink their strategy.

On a final note, I don't disagree with your qualms concerning Maruti, but I don't agree that they are the sole reason why the automotive sector in India is suffering. Unless the mindset of the common man is changed, the manufacturer will keep fleecing the customer.
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Old 18th December 2008, 09:29   #132
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I find this thread amusing.

Let me try to breakdown what i understand the questions that are asked:

1) Is Maruti giving us a low quality product with poor safety features?
i guess the answer is no. All newly released Maruti's swift onwards have good safety features.

2) Is Maruti giving us poor quality products for the money?
This has definitely to be answered by the customer, and with their wallets. I guess in general they are buying cars. In specific cases - 800 for example - you see that the demand is dropping and eventually Maruti - like any other company has to kill it.

3) Should Maruti make safety features standard and remove older cars?
This will be hurting their business model. Especially when they face threats of cars like Nano. Why should we compel only Maruti to do that? Let the govt. pass a rule saying you cannot release a car without airbags & ABS and let all manufacturers stick to it.

4) Should Maruti - as a market leader take a lead in providing saftey & comfort? (as in they have to lead this effort)
I believe they are doing it with new cars - Swift, DeZire,SX4,A-Star.


disclaimer: i do not own a Maruti now, nor do i intend to buy one in near future. I have no shares of Maruti, nor am i a big fan of Maruti

Last edited by SkyWalker : 18th December 2008 at 09:31.
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Old 18th December 2008, 11:13   #133
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Hope the debaters against safety have the patience to read this post in FULL:

Asbestos sheets are not safe, so its banned in most countries from production. So are cars like 800/alto not safe at present in 2008. You might be a 800/Alto owner and so am I, and its absolutely understandable that you feel its a safe car to drive in city. But look at the guy who is gonna buy these crap machines today and plan to keep it for 10 years to come. Today, many are preferring cars as the mode of transport to even distant places, and they tend to travel at a good speed. These cars don't have even the basic features to withstand a minor highway crash - safety beams, crumple zones and uniform build quality. Do you think the common-man will know before-hand about this death trap he is put into.

Quote:
Originally Posted by supremeBaleno View Post
@ritz, your arguments are becoming more and more ridiculous. You bring in unrelated products like asbestos sheets, mobile phones etc to prove your point which has no basis at all.
......
Monopoly is about a product/service (say car) and NOT about segments (say A, B segments) within that product/service, like you think.
, I never took the literal meaning for employ.
Looks like you are adding new definition to Monopoly??. I am not an economics Prof. to teach you about monopoly.
Go read this: What is a Monopoly?
I am not saying Monopoly is bad. But having enjoyed that Maruti should not cheat the common man with its sub-standard 800/Alto.
Also, you gottu understand that Monopoly defies the ability to make choice as is the only product available. Maruti has no competition because no other manufacturer want to do that filthy job anymore.



Quote:
Originally Posted by supremeBaleno View Post
. Maybe as per your logic an auto also comes under cars or maybe you have a separate category for autos - sub-common man car or something.
, Are you on pills? It is you who compared two-wheeler and cars for safety.

Quote:
Originally Posted by supremeBaleno View Post
Since an 800 is a common man's car as per you and since you own 2 of such cars, I guess you fit your description of the common man. In which case, as per your logic, you will today buy a brick-sized phone if it is available cheap.
Seriously, You have no idea about the common man. Its evident from your discussions that you understand nothing other than "Hamara Maruti". You are similar to those RSS soldiers who blindly listen to their leaders.


Note: Advantages of having safty beams, crumple zone and having a uniform build quality
- Reduce the force of impact
- Beams protect from side impact
- Uniform and tight build ensures that the passengers don't get squeezed. Rather, the cars transfers the impact through its outer shell.
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Old 18th December 2008, 11:32   #134
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As it is apparent that this thread is not heading to any conclusive end, its time to close the thread.

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