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Old 15th December 2008, 21:27   #16
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Who are they to decide what is good for me ?
This is just another way to torture the citizens. If they are really concerned about the effects of global warming, tell me why dont they implement Euro5 emession norms ?

The fact is IMHO, some part of the pollution can be reduced with the quality of fuel that is offered to us. If the fuel quality is good i.e. in league with International standards, then the car's engines specially those that are international motors i.e. motors that are also sold in other markets will perform optimum.

The quality of fuel is something they must start with.

Next is roads. This issue is discussed to death. Better roads that are very good quality and without encroachments and pedestrians to worry about will also lead to lowered emissions.

Third is discipline test at RTO.

Do the three activities and look at the results.

Right now we dont have quality fuel, good roads, disciplined drivers and moreover to add trouble, those who use public transport must be arrogant and indiscipline to survive.

Already the troubled will end up in more trouble. If they want to implement any such idea then atleast give safe and secure public transport that is also comfortable and not struggle.
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Old 15th December 2008, 21:30   #17
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Originally Posted by aaggoswami View Post

The fact is IMHO, some part of the pollution can be reduced with the quality of fuel that is offered to us. If the fuel quality is good i.e. in league with International standards, then the car's engines specially those that are international motors i.e. motors that are also sold in other markets will perform optimum.

The quality of fuel is something they must start with..
Quality fuel would/could also mean much much costlier fuel!!! How many in India would be willing to pay more (maybe 20-30% more) for better fuel?
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Old 15th December 2008, 22:20   #18
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Quality fuel would/could also mean much much costlier fuel!!! How many in India would be willing to pay more (maybe 20-30% more) for better fuel?
This argument is completely flawed because the major component of the cost of fuel in India is not the cost of refining, but government duties and taxes. The premium being charged by the sole seller of 97 Octane at the moment is pure monopolistic profiteering.

Edit: The same holds true for the cost of cars. Everybody in India would be able to afford a car "one rung higher" (or alternatively save that much more) if the government lowered the tax rates on cars. This would automatically enable people to buy more advanced vehicles with better emission standards.

Last edited by kbk_75 : 15th December 2008 at 22:24.
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Old 16th December 2008, 02:27   #19
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Probably govt should stipulate something like only cleaner diesel to be used for cars.
Diesel sold in India is institutionally adulterated. The scale of pilferage involved is immense and the scent trail leads to the oil ministry. You might want to try a Google search on the current petroleum minister and an accusation of his [in]direct approval of the whole mega scam. And so on and so forth. India needs billions of liters of diesal every day. All of it flows through the govt owned mega-corrupt oil companies. Think of the amount of money that can be earned absolutely unchecked. Who's going to stop it ? The state police ?

Selling pilfered adulterated petroleum is a billion dollar operation running with the approval of corrupt government machinery. The pollution we witness is a direct result of that - not because we have too many cars, but because our diesel/petrol is criminally adulterated. Highway 101 in the valley has 12 lanes, all jam packed with cars for miles - yet you'll never see sooty smoke engulfing the neighborhood of the highway - as we see on the sparse, badly-maintained Pune-Mumbai expressway.

Spend some time with any petro-dealer. He'll tell you how every ounce of diesal you get has been adulterated to some extent. And since its worth billions of dollars, there's nothing you or I can do about it.

If there's money involved, there's nothing a corrupt government machinery can't get done.
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Old 16th December 2008, 03:34   #20
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All that they always do is that grabbing more money from us. that does not at all solve any problem in our country.

If they are looking for taking all these measures for the environment then 1st step is improving public transport in the city so that we can happily go to office using busses like people do everywhere in U.S.

I am currently in U.S & everytime I come this is what I see. people come to the nearest "Park & Ride", park their cars & use local transit busses to go to office. they come by bus in the evening (as park & ride is the bus stop) and go home using their cars.

May be I am expecting too much for India but thats the way it should be. Every one will use public transport only when they will see it improved.

Otherwise these taxes/cess will go on eating up our salaries!
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Old 16th December 2008, 07:30   #21
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Bus service has improved in chennai, but the private cars has also grown in an exponential way.
First, the roads should be freed from unwanted traffic due to illegal parking. There should be a fee for all parking. Time limits for each parking.. Hope it makes sense.

In the US, the recent fuel price hike made lot of people to commute through public transport. But usually, none uses public transport. In USA almost everyone has cars and commute mostly through cars.


Last edited by ritz830 : 16th December 2008 at 07:35.
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Old 16th December 2008, 08:00   #22
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While on one hand, I agree that we need to cut emissions in the larger interest of mankind. What I don't agree is that kind of limits and restrictions that are being imposed on general public and no mention of the number of vehicles that tag every minister, every day, and one every trip he/ she makes. Why should a tax payer money should be spent so carelessly.

World over, the only option that has helped people to stop using private cars and move towards public transport is by adopting a carrot and stick method (such as cess for all the cars with single driver, hike parking charges, special cess for CBD, etc., special lanes and parking slots for car pool, lesser cess and parking fees, etc.).

Also, we need to spend phenomenal amount of money on improving our public transport. In order to encourage people to take public transport, we need to create smaller islands of huge parking lots, so that people can drive to these parking lots and then take a public transport to their destination or work or shopping area.

There is one thing that I agree with the plan that people need to show that they have indeed a place to park their car and only they should be allowed to own one. I have seen houses within my community, that are built with no parking facility even for one car.

I hope that something concrete comes out of this plan and not just few more additional taxes of cars and fuel.
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Old 16th December 2008, 08:14   #23
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@murali. That is true, flats with no parking space is commonly seen in India.

Let me suggest an Idea. Convert all bus terminus into multi storied parking space.
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Old 16th December 2008, 08:29   #24
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The Govt needs to first improve the infrastructure (well built & wide roads in City) and public transport (introduce Metro in all A & B grade Cities, efficient Bus service) etc, after they do this, they can plan to impose cess / charges on people using cars for daily commute, not otherwise!
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Old 16th December 2008, 08:44   #25
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>>include making ownership of parking space compulsory for those wishing to buy new private vehicles
I completely support this move. It should be made mandatory to show that you have designated parking space before you buy a car in all big cities, at least. In Bangalore, you will be amazed at how many people buy cars and casually park on the streets near their home, blocking traffic and irritating others!

Last edited by SkyWalker : 16th December 2008 at 08:47.
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Old 16th December 2008, 10:03   #26
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Improving public transport often *implies* some pain to private transport - some of the same scarce resources will be apportioned to dedicated bus corridors and the like. I think both the carrot and the stick will go hand in hand - but you got to start somewhere.

As an example - the bus services along the ORR routes in Bangalore are pretty decent and usable - my wife switches 3 buses to her office 36kms away! But only a handful of car owners use them - there's also some sort of a social pressure to "step up" to private transport that needs changing.

If, however, cars were disincentivized along this route - a lot many more would actually take the bus - quite like they do for BIAL. Sure - there'd soon be overcrowding and we'd get vocal about improving services - but the easier route of taking a car that exists today needs to be made tougher, for sure.

I love driving, and now cycling. But from the city planning pov, let's not get too biased. I was in Delhi last week - and the way the city has started existing primarily to keep its roads going, even at the cost of trmendous amounts of pollution that surely tells on its residents' wellbeing - its scary. I'd rather Bangalore NOT go down that road (pun intended) and follow the more progressive models available across places in Europe. It *is* chicken and egg, but unless we at least marry ourselves to the idea of reducing the total carsXdistance travelled equation - there's little hope. You can have the best emission norms in the world, but unbridled growth in personal motorized transport usage (again, not owndership but usage) will add up to beyond whats good for us.
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Old 16th December 2008, 11:10   #27
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Originally Posted by ajnagpur View Post
All that they always do is that grabbing more money from us. that does not at all solve any problem in our country.

If they are looking for taking all these measures for the environment then 1st step is improving public transport in the city so that we can happily go to office using busses like people do everywhere in U.S.


Otherwise these taxes/cess will go on eating up our salaries!
Exactly. That is what they want to do. Paralyze the middle class, increase the disparity between rich and poor and eat into salaries. This is the basic motive from government. Already those who are paying high income tax have to pay for high cost of fuel. Real pain. And now they have planned some cess. Parking fee ?
In Vadodara, near Sursagar lake, even shopkeepers are paying for parking. How ? The anti social elements get united and start the pay and park facalities. This problem will come up in case of pay and park and then police gets involved and more money goes away from the citizen's hand.

All well planned strategy to extract money from us under the umbrella of global warming. Randomly check the quality of fuel all over India. And we all know where our money goes.

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>>include making ownership of parking space compulsory for those wishing to buy new private vehicles

I completely support this move. It should be made mandatory to show that you have designated parking space before you buy a car in all big cities, at least. In Bangalore, you will be amazed at how many people buy cars and casually park on the streets near their home, blocking traffic and irritating others!
OK, so for example I own a parking place. If someone else comes and parks there, I can get compensation to amount I desire, right ? Because I OWN the parking place. Nobody can even walk through that peice of land as I own it. I can build walls around that peice of land becasue I own it, right ?

This will again give rise to more corruption. The government will deliberately give small peice of land and for someone who has a large car, the officials can extract more money.
A joke.

An example how things can go wrong.
In Vadodara's R.C. Dutt road, popularly known as " Alkapuri ", all the commercial buildings were granted permission because in the plans it was shown that the basement will be for parking facality for customers and shop owners. But in reality the officials were payed money and the basement floor has shops and parking only for shop owners. They have put in private security guards. If you argue and park, they will deflate your tyres. Result : Parking is done where footpath is supposed to be and when someone takes out the car or parks in, a mini traffic jam is created.

I think someone should stop government from doing this. Or else, we will one day again become slaves like we did to british. Only difference is that this time we will have even worse government.

Last edited by aaggoswami : 16th December 2008 at 11:15.
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Old 16th December 2008, 11:24   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SkyWalker View Post
>>include making ownership of parking space compulsory for those wishing to buy new private vehicles
I completely support this move. It should be made mandatory to show that you have designated parking space before you buy a car in all big cities, at least. In Bangalore, you will be amazed at how many people buy cars and casually park on the streets near their home, blocking traffic and irritating others!
Have to disagree. What amount of traffic problems are due to people parking their cars on the street ?(private parking not public ones near shopping areas) Its very much less compared to the inadequate roads and indiscipline on part of drivers and non-enforcement on the part of authorities.

Heard joke on radio yesterday. If you don't own parking space you cant buy a car. Then since roads are not good, you shouldn't pay road tax.
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Old 16th December 2008, 14:01   #29
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@srishiva, @aaggoswami,
you folks are missing the point. I have seen many an areas where people park on streets in Bangalore. They buy cars but have no parking space. So they park on roads. Many a times, on both sides. People don't have the discipline to not buy cars if they don't have the parking space. Streets are not meant to make permanent parking.

I am not debating that public transport and roads have to improve. In fact they should improve big time. But these are different ideas.

@aaggoswami - why should govt be involved in giving out space? It just says you cant buy a car unless u prove u have parking space for it - that too in big cities?
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Old 16th December 2008, 14:25   #30
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@aaggoswami - why should govt be involved in giving out space? It just says you cant buy a car unless u prove u have parking space for it - that too in big cities?
Lets consider this. There are 10 year old buildings that dont have parking place for two cars per flat. Now where will the owners park. If the rule is implemented now, then what about these people.
And for the future a few questions.

1) Are there any specifications available no how commercial and residential multistory buildings be built ? Are any facilities made available where they can have two cars per flat/apartment ?

2) Are there any rules or specifications available on how one storied house/two storied house must be constructed ? Are there rules that suggest two car parking facility must be available then only the permission be granted ? Are there any cost controls here ?

3) If the rules do exists, then are they updated from time to time ? Are they even followed ? If not followed, can we catch and punish the culprits ?

IMO, we are not guinea pigs that the government goes on experimenting on us.

Stopping one from buying a car only because he does not have a parking place is not going to solve our problems. Neither will extracting more tax from us will. Some concrete steps are required like multistorey parking, etc.

Surely a joke is made out of us. Government does not have any right to put restrictions on us when they themselves are corrupt and cannot act properly at any positive place. I strongly believe that this is all about management problems and corruption.

Last edited by aaggoswami : 16th December 2008 at 14:33.
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