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Old 17th December 2008, 11:10   #46
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There are more cars in the US than in India.
Then why is there so much more pollution here.

Are the cars the culprit or is it the lack of road planning, fuel quality, thermal power stations and such stuff.
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Old 17th December 2008, 11:16   #47
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There are more cars in the US than in India.
Then why is there so much more pollution here.

Are the cars the culprit
Everytime there is a taxi and auto strike pollution levels dip in the city.

Problem is the government is too dumb to understand that. All they have to do is catch the autorikshaws running on kerosene, taxis and commercial vehicles that haven't been serviced in decades and most of their climate problem would be solved. They are targetting the private cars which are in any case the least polluting vehicles on the roads.

The real culprits are being allowed to run riot while the law abiding citizens are being penalised!
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Old 17th December 2008, 11:28   #48
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Ummm, "The Government" is us. If it sees enough of us move is a certain direction, it plays along. So far its been "my house, my car, traffic on my route" and so band-aids are what we get.
When it becomes "the air we all breathe" the focus will be different, and overall better for traffic, urban public transport and us.
Even where public transport *is* comfortable - its not necessarily reduced private transport usage - the "sexiness" of the US sprawl model led by the snazzy image - of a quiet automobile whizzing on the highway with some great music on the radio - is a tough one to overcome. Both carrot and stick are required tools.
Automobile pollution is definitely and provably one of the major reasons for growth in pollution - especially in our cities. Our overall pollution levels have gone up significantly over the last few years, and no longer can we merely point fingers at the US for their 25% contribution to the world's greenhouse gases.
As car-owners, and more so as enthusiasts, even as we oppose the parking space based policies - we must see the reason and intent behind the move and suggest alternatives which will actually reduce overall distance done in private transport inside our cities.
We can get the government to "improve their behaviour" - through actions and a common achievable goal. Plain cynicism will not do, and no change in our own behaviour will certainly not do. To expect someone to come in to solve our problems has been the problem all these years, in fact
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Old 17th December 2008, 11:29   #49
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Originally Posted by amit View Post
Everytime there is a taxi and auto strike pollution levels dip in the city.

Problem is the government is too dumb to understand that. All they have to do is catch the autorikshaws running on kerosene, taxis and commercial vehicles that haven't been serviced in decades and most of their climate problem would be solved. They are targetting the private cars which are in any case the least polluting vehicles on the roads.

The real culprits are being allowed to run riot while the law abiding citizens are being penalised!
You got a Point!!
If they service or check the commercial vehicles especially the buses and get them to proper emission levels, it would cut half the god-forsaken pollution!!!
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Old 17th December 2008, 11:36   #50
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Everytime there is a taxi and auto strike pollution levels dip in the city.
The real culprits are being allowed to run riot while the law abiding citizens are being penalised!
The difference in the air in Delhi was definitely noticable soon after the switchover to CNG for Public transprt vehicles. I don't know why that can't be done in other cities too. (atleast metro's)

I know this can lead to a chicken and egg type debate about there not being enough filling stations, but we have to start somewhere right?
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Old 17th December 2008, 12:11   #51
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a. The auto-caused pollution levels in the US are very very high.
b. even in the "visibly" clean cars there are greenhouse gases emanating from the exhaust, and they add up real quick. E.g. a 5km commute on a cycle saves about 1.2m tonnes of greenhouse gases a year per car! http://www.nt.gov.au/dcm/legislation...issions/21.pdf
c. Delhi did get cleaner - but despite only CNG based public transport - is extremely polluted and the traffic situation continues to get progressively worse. More and more of the city continues to get consumed by roads, and its expanding to gobble all surrounding towns and villages. The traffic gets back to its usual density in a few years time, and a lot many get committed to staying further away and thus commuting longer, burning more fuel. The particular vehicles FE or emissions are incidental to this entire picture. I'm praying to God Bangalore stays away from the sprawl model.

Unless we get serious about reducing the miles we do in our cars - especially inside cities - we face a very tough future. Sure the plan needs a debate and, possibly, alternative proposals. But a knee-jerk dismissal is a mere non-recognition of the underlying reasons, and as an enthusiasts' forum, we need to be more progressive on this.

How do we ensure we're part of the dialogue and solution framing ? If we take a militant, reactive approach we're bound to be ignored outright. Or it'll boil down to merely a few angry/cynical/happy/whatever comments on this thread, and that'll be that.
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Old 17th December 2008, 14:21   #52
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well guyz, I have a different feel of the situation. I dont believe any such cess or taxes will be levied on the vehicle to make the ownership expensive. Remember the famous AMP of the govt. of India. Automotive growth has to be a significant economic driver to boost manufacturing in India even for the ancilaries. Most of the greenfield project have already gone on hold and this yrs auto growth is corrected at 7-8% against a forecasted 12-15%. Not to mention last two yrs have seen phenomenal growth. I do believe that untill 2015 no such measures would be taken that deters the buying and further slows the industry down. No No!
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Old 17th December 2008, 14:35   #53
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This is a joke.
Public transportation in metros is laughable with people hanging out of buses and sitting on roof tops.
What about smaller cities where there is 0 public transportation. In my city there isn't even a localized bus service let alone metros.
what say ? Ban the Nano project?Give subsidy to alternate fuel cars?Ban sale of cars below Rs 4lakhs?No car older than 7years to be deemed road worthy?
These are all steps to curb so called consumption/pollution?govenrment and people who support this law shouldn't speak till 1st they address the public transportation issue.Give everyone an alternative and then push them towards that alternative.
Also honestly I think the government shud levy a tax on every 2n child onwards hehe.
less people less overall pollution/consumption.......
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Old 17th December 2008, 14:40   #54
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Originally Posted by snaronikar View Post
Boss, don't give the ideas. Maybe govt will be seeing this and they take a cue from here.
Ha Do u think they can read? They dont know the alphabet, only numbers and that too in currency
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Old 17th December 2008, 14:50   #55
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Not only is equating having a space to park your car with saving the global climate problem completely ludicrous, but let's take a look at the new suburbs that have cropped up in the past 10-15 years such as Navi Mumbai. Where is the town planning here? These are BRAND NEW mini cities. Has the Govt. shown any foresight in the infrastructure, building zoning, requirements to be met by builders before buildings can be made etc?
CI completely agree to this!. From what I see now , the older parts of most cities are more well planned. The newer areas or rather layouts in the IT capital of B'lore like the whitefield area etc are no match to the older layouts like Jayanagar, Malleshwaram, Indira Nagar etc ) I fail to understnad why we are going backwards instead fo developing. Bad planning leads to clogged roads and traffic jams at intersections which are in no way capable to handle the traffic. End result: hundreds of vehicle burning away precious fuel and adding their bit to pollution.
when will the so called authorities think about this? all that is left now is ...wish..wish... wish
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Old 17th December 2008, 16:13   #56
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1) When it becomes "the air we all breathe" the focus will be different, and overall better for traffic, urban public transport and us.

2) Even where public transport *is* comfortable - its not necessarily reduced private transport usage - the "sexiness" of the US sprawl model led by the snazzy image - of a quiet automobile whizzing on the highway with some great music on the radio - is a tough one to overcome. Both carrot and stick are required tools.

3) Automobile pollution is definitely and provably one of the major reasons for growth in pollution - especially in our cities. Our overall pollution levels have gone up significantly over the last few years, and no longer can we merely point fingers at the US for their 25% contribution to the world's greenhouse gases.

4) As car-owners, and more so as enthusiasts, even as we oppose the parking space based policies - we must see the reason and intent behind the move and suggest alternatives which will actually reduce overall distance done in private transport inside our cities.

5) We can get the government to "improve their behaviour" - through actions and a common achievable goal. Plain cynicism will not do, and no change in our own behaviour will certainly not do. To expect someone to come in to solve our problems has been the problem all these years, in fact
1) No, we cant. If we ever considered the road as public place, then we wont have encroachments and lack of discipline on the road.

2) There are more issues than just the comfort, etc that I had mentioned. Biggest factor how deep are the nerves of public transport. But in India, IMO, comfort will alone get many to use public transport.

3) Ah, here we come again. What are the basic reasons for this. If we attack on the root cause, then we can make a difference. This is what I am trying to put into words from my first post in this thread. Lets attack the root cause, and its surely not people driving cars. Yes it can come at a later stage, but not now.

4) Practical, impartial, corruption free and flawless implementation has to be guaranteed in written with many conditions. Else it is useless. Who can promise this ? Nobody.

5) We cant. The good voice is too low to even raise an issue. Often when I say that we are still developing country, argument is " we got freedom in 1947. Well with the amount of technology available, we are supposed to be way ahead but since 1947 the road conditions are getting worse. Of my 1.5lakh kms+ driving experience ( mainly two wheelers ), I can surely tell that we are deteriorating in regard to road conditions, fuel quality, indisciplined road users.
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Old 17th December 2008, 16:27   #57
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Originally Posted by aaggoswami View Post
1)
5) We cant. The good voice is too low to even raise an issue. Often when I say that we are still developing country, argument is " we got freedom in 1947. Well with the amount of technology available, we are supposed to be way ahead but since 1947 the road conditions are getting worse. Of my 1.5lakh kms+ driving experience ( mainly two wheelers ), I can surely tell that we are deteriorating in regard to road conditions, fuel quality, indisciplined road users.
This last one is what a lot many are challenging, and not completely without success. One approach is to cry 'foul' each time - but the BIAS service to the new airport was not born off this approach - it happened because of enough voices clamouring loud and hard for a real solution and then following it up with a a plan to work *with* the government, not merely against it.

The bus services along the ORR in Bangalore are pretty good, frequent and convenient. Yet only a handful of car and bike owners have made the switch. There were protests in my earlier company when company cabs were introduced - for the "inflexibility of timings". People soon realized it was far more convenient and less stressful to not have to drive in mad traffic. Its tough to expect a dramatic change in behaviour - some amount of a disincentive is a must.

Sure, public transport needs to improve. But the first version of it is unlikely to be perfect - and will take a round of noise/feedback from us. But for want of a perfect system, we should not stop moving towards a desirable goal.

In my view, that simple desirable goal in all urban areas today : reduce the cumulative distance traveled in private motor vehicles by 50%. Feasible ? Don't know - but given how screwed we're beginning to get, we need hoary, audacious goals like those.

Edit:

Also, in my experience across India - roads have *improved* over the last decade. Delhi has wider roads, fewer lights. Bombay has zippy expressways. In Bangalore we needed to keep watching out for potholes all over town - now its the odd one here and there. The journey between Pune and Bangalore by road was amazing. Even the horrendous Mysore-Madikeri road is nearly complete. Chennai takes no time at all. Sure a lot many things are still inadequately designed, but overall, many many more roads are divided, better surfaced and wider than a decade ago.

The thing is - wider/better roads aren't always the answer. For one, they end up attracting more traffic, and things find their equilibrium pretty soon. A model of urban planning and transportation that is not fixated on "better-roads" is whats needed. Else we're headed towards sprawl - and thats proven in numerous studies as an unsustainable model across the world.

Last edited by zenx : 17th December 2008 at 16:33.
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Old 17th December 2008, 16:57   #58
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Originally Posted by zenx View Post
1)One approach is to cry 'foul' each time - but the BIAS service to the new airport was not born off this approach - it happened because of enough voices clamouring loud and hard for a real solution and then following it up with a a plan to work *with* the government, not merely against it.

2) The bus services along the ORR in Bangalore are pretty good, frequent and convenient. Yet only a handful of car and bike owners have made the switch. There were protests in my earlier company when company cabs were introduced - for the "inflexibility of timings". People soon realized it was far more convenient and less stressful to not have to drive in mad traffic. Its tough to expect a dramatic change in behaviour - some amount of a disincentive is a must.

3) Sure, public transport needs to improve. But the first version of it is unlikely to be perfect - and will take a round of noise/feedback from us. But for want of a perfect system, we should not stop moving towards a desirable goal.

4) In my view, that simple desirable goal in all urban areas today : reduce the cumulative distance traveled in private motor vehicles by 50%. Feasible ? Don't know - but given how screwed we're beginning to get, we need hoary, audacious goals like those.

5) Also, in my experience across India - roads have *improved* over the last decade. Delhi has wider roads, fewer lights. Bombay has zippy expressways...

6) The thing is - wider/better roads aren't always the answer. For one, they end up attracting more traffic, and things find their equilibrium pretty soon. A model of urban planning and transportation that is not fixated on "better-roads" is whats needed. Else we're headed towards sprawl - and thats proven in numerous studies as an unsustainable model across the world.
1) How to work with them ? Give even more income tax ? Tolerate even worse quality of fuel ?
Show me one near perfect move by government for roads, public transport and reducing pollution and improving the quality of fuel. And show me the flawless implementation.
The moves by government are not good moves with good motives. So we cannot go ahead and support the government. More at point 4.

2) The convenience of using a personal two wheeler or four wheeler is very high. Also this saves time. There is a bus that goes to near my college. I have to walk around 1KM to reach bus stand, the bus moves slow, then again walk around 1 km to reach my college building. Time taken will be more than 45 mins. When I take bike its 20 mins and when I take Maruti 800 it is 30 mins. I have to go to college twice. So eventually I save 15 X 4 = atleast 1 hour. Plus less fatigue.
Here is where the comfort and road conditions matter and come into picture.

3 and 4) What is the goal ?
a) Less pollution.
b) Less vehicles.
c) Putting one more cess.

All of the three are not related at all for India where we dont have a huge number of vehicles. For achieving
a) The points are already mentioned. If implemeted perfectly, we will see a huge reduction in pollution.

b) Go ahead and give " Parking space rule ", etc.

c) Any pretext related to reducing pollution will work.

I tired taking bus but one would fluster at the name of public transport and inside it, well, it was near to crucible.

5) What about smaller cities like Vadodara. A'bad and Surat have good roads, but majority of them dont have good roads.

6) So will be out of roads by 2015. Apart from studies, discipline is required. This will affect most of the things. Due to India's large scale, this is bound to happen. And this is what is happening in public transport. This is not a sufficient pretext to put cess and " show parking place ".
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Old 17th December 2008, 17:09   #59
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5) What about smaller cities like Vadodara. A'bad and Surat have good roads, but majority of them dont have good roads.
Learn from the bigger ones and don't commit the same mistakes they made The lure of "big, wide roads" is a long, long tunnel that leads nowhere. Try and build consensus locally for alternative, long-term-sustainable forms of growth - like networked sub-cities rather than megapolises.

In any case, you and I seem to be discussing different issues. I'm not for taxing private car ownership, nor "show me the parking" restrictions (tho this ain't that bad) - but would rather restrict or make expensive usage of private cars inside cities.

Yes public transport sucks in many places. Yes its the easier option to take your car or bike instead. No we cannot assume that to be our fate and live with it - and yes any move that disturbs that staus quo - and will necessarily mean improvement of public transport sooner or later (The Delhi metro, now Mumbai, and Volvo services in Blore).

Hope at least a few on this forum work towards positive action as well. Sure, our cynicism is bred of legitimate reasons over the years, but we must look forward, musn't we ?

Meanwhile, I shall continue to ride my cycle to work
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Old 17th December 2008, 20:06   #60
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Ironically Navi Mumbai is advertised as "The Planned City." I am always wondering what and where is the planning in this planned city?! If thats what the government calls planning then CIDCO should be disbanded immediately. If it was a corporate, almost all officers would have been sacked!
It's very much a part of the topic dude...the proposal is to make people prove that they have a parking spot before they are allowed to buy a car. Having a space to park is very much the purview of town planning.
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