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Old 8th January 2009, 22:38   #421
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People wanting power should wait for the diesel. Hyundai diesels always manage to run rings around their petrol siblings.
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Old 8th January 2009, 22:56   #422
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Another point is that Hyundai raised the premium hatchback game here. Any other car to be launched in this segment Punto, Jazz whatever it is , they have to bring same level of features. Otherwise they will be considered as pre-historic.

Hyundai did the same with Santro, they bought power windows, power steering and all those goodies with Santro. Similarly they raised game with i10 with brand new interiors which feels a class above. Don't foget they brought India's first sub 10 lakhs crdi diesel.

Maruti was forced to follow Hyundai both the times. I am pretty sure that Maruti will improve Splash's interiors and quality.

And I believe i20 will sell because everyone complains about i10 is pricey, but nobody who bought seems to complain that and is selling well too. Also note that the largest volumes of i10 are middle - top models with no takers for lowest models, contrary to what many thought. Indian customers are changing. Hyundai just have keep it ticking without doing stupid things.
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Old 8th January 2009, 23:26   #423
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Originally Posted by vinayasurya View Post
And I believe i20 will sell because everyone complains about i10 is pricey, but nobody who bought seems to complain that and is selling well too. Also note that the largest volumes of i10 are middle - top models with no takers for lowest models, contrary to what many thought. Indian customers are changing. Hyundai just have keep it ticking without doing stupid things.
I would differ on that part, most of the times, I see Era or Magna model only, I've hardly seen any Sportz and never seen any Asta model on delhi roads.
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Old 8th January 2009, 23:29   #424
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Originally Posted by romeomidhun View Post
Over-expectation and dreams of a Hyundai fan!!!

He dreams of Hyundai having the brand image of a Honda too!!!
Actually I drive a Honda and my wife has a Hyundai. Luckily for me, my self-worth is not determined by the shiny badge at the front of my car.

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Originally Posted by dipen View Post
I assume the 77hp city was successful because of its luxurious interiors (compared to the old City) and good space in the cabin and the HONDA badge. It had adequate torque for city driving too. If that car can be such a success including numerous Thpians buying it, then by that philosophy i20 seems decent.
My thoughts exactly but there are many here who rank the straight H above the slanted H.

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Originally Posted by CBlazer View Post
I don't think that would work today. What they did with the Getz CRDi was a mistake. If they launch a i20 with say a 1.4, 100bhp(?) petrol - a potential buyer would expect all the goodies on offer in the less powerful 1.2 Kappa version.
It was just a thought about how they may position an i20 with a bigger engine. With all those features, a bigger engine and no excise cut the price will hit the roof.

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Originally Posted by SkyWalker View Post
Well, NHC & i20 wont just compare...
  1. NHC was a Honda, i20 is a Hyundai. Big difference in India (as of now, at least)
  2. NHC was a Sedan and i20 is not. Please check how premium petrol hatchbacks above 6L are doing in India (Getz,SRV,Fusion,Fabia)
  3. NHC was very fuel efficient. I doubt if i20 would come anywhere near that
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Originally Posted by GTO View Post
Looking for a parallels between the NHCs success & the i20's potential is entirely illogical. Here is why:

1. Honda versus Hyundai. Brand equity counts, whether we like it or not.

2. The i20 is amongst the most expensive hatchbacks. The NHC, on the other hand, was a sedan priced at a smaller premium over its competition. But it wasn't the most expensive C segment sedan.

3. The acceptability for an 8 lakh rupee sedan was (and is) far stronger than that for a 7 lakh rupee hatchback.

4. The NHC sold because of the H badge, successful "City" brand name, phenomenal fuel efficiency, fantastic interiors & all-round practicality. The i20, again, has a premium positioning, not the roomiest backseat and will not be the most fuel-efficient hatch (by a mile).
Gawd, you boys missed the disclaimer. I said there may be parallels based on my assumptions. And my only assumption was that the NHC, when launched was also considered to be under-powered and over-priced.
Although, I don't read too much into the differences between brands and their perceptions, I agree that Honda has better equity in India than Hyundai and that a sedan is preferred by most people over a hatch.

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Originally Posted by GTO View Post
Mine mostly do. Thank you for asking. And for the record, don't for a moment assume I am a Honda fanboy. Search through the archives of this forum and you will probably see as much of respect for Hyundai as for Honda. Like I said, it is not only the small capacity but also the BHP rating that is insufficient. 80 BHP powering 1066 kg is like a power to weight of 75 BHP / Ton. Certainly not premium hatch standards. Honestly, I see another Skoda Fabia in the making. Atleast, from the buyers perspective, the Skoda has a premium badge.
Good to know. In fact, people here are charging me with being a Hyundai fanboy. Im not - Im just playing devil's advocate.
You make a rational point about the power of the engine. However, I think the market is intrinsically irrational. People here may debate engine specs (and even among that group there are those who say it's adequate) but I really don't think most car buyers bother too much. For most people it should work well within a limited set of parameters.

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Originally Posted by GTO View Post
That's exactly the point. With such a high price for the 1.2, what room have they left for a 1.4 L petrol & a diesel? We are well acquainted with the success (or lack of) for 8 lakh rupee hatchbacks in our market. Good luck, Hyundai. Looks like you are gonna need it for the i20.
I agree, the pricing of the 1.4 et al is going to be a challenge for Hyundai.

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Originally Posted by sanjubaba View Post
This is a news to me.
Sure you can fit five people into the Swift as long as they are a certain size. God help you if you have tall people in the front.

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Originally Posted by reppy View Post
I don't get it - everyone who's commenting here on underpowered-for-the-price or performance has not test driven it. Please see my test drive comments - this car is not bad to drive. And for those who feel its underpowered - it is not so bad that it would deter a normal city driving oriented person from booking one - its a much better deal than the Fabia 1.2 Ambiente for someone who's looking for a premium hatch. And why can't Hyundai sell a premium hatch? They're giving you a car which is better built than a Swift ZXI for 40k more and with more features also. And before you comment on this, I request you to seriously check out the thickness of swift doors, sound proofing, interior space, features, plastics quality, visibility etc. In ALL of these areas, the i20 beats the Swift hands down, at a 10% premium in price with a 5-10% dip in performance versus a ZXI - that is NOT bad at all! Take it from a guy who's test driven it.
Hear, hear from the only man who's driven it!

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Originally Posted by narayan View Post
I feel Hyundai is testing the waters in terms of speccing up the car with safety and other convenience features and offering a "decent" engine which would do duties under normal circumstances.

If the the i20 had come with a more powerful 1.4 engine, without many of the above features - I am sure a lot of us out here would then say that " oh this car is so short of safety features - chee no Airbags, damn - no ABS even - even the cheaper SWIFT offers this etc "

so lets see how the broader car buying market take to this strategy and we would then know how much engine power matters to a user and how much modern safety/convenience features matter
I agree, valid points.
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Old 9th January 2009, 00:55   #425
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i think hyundai have played a very clever game with i20. on one hand they have pre-empted honda-jazz and will force honda to have similar equipment levels (which will push up the price). if honda does not it can not claim leadership. on the other hand they have introduced magna/astra versions for now. in future they can easily introduce stripped down versions - d-lite/era at a lower price. Also if required they may introduce 1.4 petrol for the magna/astra versions of i20 (with a marginal price increase of 20K). what say?

Last edited by drkunaldas : 9th January 2009 at 00:56.
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Old 9th January 2009, 09:07   #426
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Originally Posted by drkunaldas View Post
i think hyundai have played a very clever game with i20. on one hand they have pre-empted honda-jazz and will force honda to have similar equipment levels (which will push up the price). if honda does not it can not claim leadership. on the other hand they have introduced magna/astra versions for now. in future they can easily introduce stripped down versions - d-lite/era at a lower price. Also if required they may introduce 1.4 petrol for the magna/astra versions of i20 (with a marginal price increase of 20K). what say?
for that they have to trim off some of the features if they wanna intro 1.4L engine to i20 with marginal price hike ups.
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Old 9th January 2009, 09:25   #427
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Originally Posted by drkunaldas View Post
i think hyundai have played a very clever game with i20. on one hand they have pre-empted honda-jazz and will force honda to have similar equipment levels (which will push up the price). if honda does not it can not claim leadership. on the other hand they have introduced magna/astra versions for now. in future they can easily introduce stripped down versions - d-lite/era at a lower price. Also if required they may introduce 1.4 petrol for the magna/astra versions of i20 (with a marginal price increase of 20K). what say?
Look at the ANHC and see if they have anything comparable in features to a similarly priced sedan. No alloys, no fog lamps, no climate control, no cd player...10+ lacs on road, and it still will be the best seller in the class. I am sure it would have sold quite well even if this car came with the old iDSI and VTEC engines.

I remember my neighbor who recently bought it commenting that he saved about 4 lacs buying a ANHC instead of Civic and that it even has "civic like" steering

Regarding i20, I think Hyundai will launch an Era/Delite model in the near future, probably with a CRDI engine to minimize the cost impact.
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Old 9th January 2009, 10:00   #428
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Originally Posted by drkunaldas View Post
i think hyundai have played a very clever game with i20. on one hand they have pre-empted honda-jazz and will force honda to have similar equipment levels (which will push up the price). if honda does not it can not claim leadership. on the other hand they have introduced magna/astra versions for now. in future they can easily introduce stripped down versions - d-lite/era at a lower price. Also if required they may introduce 1.4 petrol for the magna/astra versions of i20 (with a marginal price increase of 20K). what say?

I don't think so. The only way for Hyundai to ward off the Jazz is to offer a CRDi. Without a Diesel, i20 might also go the Getz way.
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Old 9th January 2009, 10:43   #429
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Quote:
Originally Posted by drkunaldas View Post
i think hyundai have played a very clever game with i20. on one hand they have pre-empted honda-jazz and will force honda to have similar equipment levels (which will push up the price). if honda does not it can not claim leadership. on the other hand they have introduced magna/astra versions for now. in future they can easily introduce stripped down versions - d-lite/era at a lower price. Also if required they may introduce 1.4 petrol for the magna/astra versions of i20 (with a marginal price increase of 20K). what say?

This will act against Hyundai. Jazz with 1.5 and all the features will claim to be the best eating Fabia and I20 as it will have a great engine and all the features. And with 1.4 petrol, cost of I20 will go up as it will attract more tax, so its not Honda that is at problem. Jazz and G3HC share the same platform, so again cost effectiveness for Honda and they can say they are giving a better engine for the same amount of money and overall a better + honda badge. Honda wont cross Rs. 7.5 lakh with Jazz otherwise it will interfeare with G3HC.
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Old 9th January 2009, 11:04   #430
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Originally Posted by reppy View Post
I think so too but currently the i20 kills the Fabia 1.2 Ambiente.
That's not really saying something, is it? Anything can *kill* the Fabia . It is currently the worst selling hatchback in India. I hope Hyundai aren't benchmarking the Fabias success (or rather...the lack of it).

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People will definitely compare both (and maybe the Fabia) before buying a car in the 5.5-6.5 range.
A 10 - 15% premium is HUGE in the hatchback segment. Search through the Team-BHP What car section to see for yourself the number of deals that have been broken over as little as 15,000 - 40,000 rupees. The sub 5 - 6 lakh segment is VERY price sensitive.

Plus, let me get this right : You mean to say that a potential customer is going to pay 10 - 15% more for inferior performance, lesser fuel-efficiency and a non-Maruti? C'mon, give the Indian customer some credit. Let's not forget the Getz' failure either. In my books, the petrol 1.3 Getz is a far superior hatch to the Swift petrol. It is better built, offers far more space and superior ride quality.

The problem is this : Hyundai's lack of managerial effectiveness. History shows that they get carried away by success (in this case - the i10) and launch the next product with over confidence. A premium hatch is NOT supposed to be about compromise. Prior to the i10, the only success that Hyundai has enjoyed in the previous decade has been with the Santro & Accent, models that are about 8 - 10 years old. The Verna has started moving only in the recent past.

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Originally Posted by aaggoswami View Post
The manufacturer that the asking price is going into " premium " band, and here we expect more that what it ready to offer.
Very true. When the i20's Indian spy pics were released, I was simply ecstatic about the car. I love the way that the i20 looks, in fact I love most of Hyundais new designs. That's probably the reason for my disappointment : I expected the i20 to deliver just as the i10 has. Too bad they decided to sell a 6.5 lakh hatch with a 1.2 liter engine.

Quote:
@GTO: The i20 develops similar torque to the Swift at lower RPMs (112Nm@4000 vs 113@4500 for Swift). Won't that help despite the bhp disadvantage?
The Swift petrol is criticised for its lack of low-end torque. Look up our test-drive section or the many ownership reviews.

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Originally Posted by StarScream View Post
When launched was also considered to be under-powered and over-priced.
Says who? Under-powered yes. But remember that the NHC was cheaper than the outgoing OHC. No one thought that the NHC was over-priced at the time of its launch. The only time that the NHC started looking over-priced is when cars like the SX4 came around and offered more power / features for a lesser price. That's about 3 - 4 years AFTER the NHCs launch.
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Old 9th January 2009, 11:25   #431
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Originally Posted by inferno View Post
I would differ on that part, most of the times, I see Era or Magna model only, I've hardly seen any Sportz and never seen any Asta model on delhi roads.
I was refering to the time, i10 was launched. Remember they had a low end model with almost no features and there were no takers for that. And i10 magna has all the basic features of a 4 lakh + car.

I think the same will happen to A* too, the base model is not likely to have any takers.
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Old 9th January 2009, 11:36   #432
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I don't think Honda can price the Jazz less or for same price as i20. The low end model is likely to be priced between Asta - Asta ( O ) of i20.

Jazz is almost like a honda city without boot. So I don't expect it to priced much lower in the 5+ segment.
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Old 9th January 2009, 11:58   #433
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Originally Posted by GTO View Post
The problem is this : Hyundai's lack of managerial effectiveness. History shows that they get carried away by success (in this case - the i10) and launch the next product with over confidence. A premium hatch is NOT supposed to be about compromise.
How very true! I was expecting the i20 to come with a 1.4 engine at least (and hoping for a CRDi), but they have put me off with a 1.2 engine. In the UK and other mature markets, manufacturers offer smaller engines for some niche customers like homemakers and older people who want features but not high performance. So a 1.2 i20 might make good sense along with a 1.4 petrol and CRDi Diesel. In India, they can very well offer the 1.2 alright, but could have offered at least the CRDi along with it. Now I am looking at the Fabia, as it has the advantage of an available Diesel.

My experience with Hyundai: Original Santro was very nice, and a second Xing Zip drive was also good. The Accent CRDi and the Verna Diesel that followed also good. But anything else, they screw up. Bought an Elantra CRDi, liked the car, but they ruined it by price cuts. Asked for a Getz CRDi with factory installed ABS, and was willing to wait, but they turned me off. Then agreed to settle for a non- ABS, but quoted 3 months waiting period. Was willing to wait for a Santa Fe, but fed up and went for a CRV. Decided to purchase a Sonata CRDi, but by then stopped the AT version, so it was the Laura. And now the i20. I think I should stop waiting for Hyundai launches.
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Old 9th January 2009, 15:34   #434
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Yup, waited for this car long enough! hoping for the 1.5L CRDi or the 1.6 CRDi. But what they bring out is 1.2L petrol! wow! bonus for India.

I'm so disappointed that I've for now dropped the idea of buying one for now, will live with the wagonR with new seat/steering covers etc.

I doubt this car will sell well.
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Old 9th January 2009, 15:35   #435
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Originally Posted by GTO View Post
Says who? Under-powered yes. But remember that the NHC was cheaper than the outgoing OHC. No one thought that the NHC was over-priced at the time of its launch. The only time that the NHC started looking over-priced is when cars like the SX4 came around and offered more power / features for a lesser price. That's about 3 - 4 years AFTER the NHCs launch.
Said me at the time. I thought, at the time, that a car for 7+ lakhs should have had one or two of these: fog lights, alloys, CD player, alarm system. I was upgrading to a Honda City from an Esteem, which came with fogs and an anti-theft system. I felt a little short-changed when I didn't get those with the City.
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