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Old 13th January 2009, 12:11   #511
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Originally Posted by Gangsta View Post
due to the taxes, they will surely come with 1.4L diesel, displacement will be something 13XX CC. 90 hp, 220 nm torque. it will be fast like verna and getz diesel because of the lighter weight. well they may increase the weight because of the fact that diesel engines are heavier than the petrol.
But do you think Hyundai wants to spend on diesel engines, when they already have the 1.5 CRDi ready. I think this 1.2 Kappa thing is just to create some buzz. Later on they'll plonk the 1.5, claim no tax benefits and price it in the 7.5L OTR levels.
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Old 13th January 2009, 12:52   #512
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But do you think Hyundai wants to spend on diesel engines, when they already have the 1.5 CRDi ready. I think this 1.2 Kappa thing is just to create some buzz. Later on they'll plonk the 1.5, claim no tax benefits and price it in the 7.5L OTR levels.
Yes, they will surely do it because:
1. indian wants mileage, 1.5L crdi wont give that much mileage if compared with swift D. So, 90 hp will surely give good mileage than 1.5L CRDi and slightly less than Swift D. Also, torque difference is big bet. swift d and 1.4L D engines. Again Much better performance than Swift D with slightly less mileage.
2. Taxes: they can give more goodies than Getz D (almost no goodies lol) in Diesel i20 else nobody will buy it. If they have to provide ABS etc. to compete with swift D, they need to use a smaller engine. as i mentioned in my previous posts only 1 thing is stopped me to buy getz crdi is ABS. I was ready to pay more.

I do drive 2 different sedans most of the time but i wanna drive a hatchback now, because of the fact that delhi traffic is increasing mroe and more and many times i faced parking problems in the market etc. Out of 2 sedan i like accent to drive in cities because accent is bloody damn easy to drive in cities. i20 i havnt driven it so no comments but getz yes, i can feel as if i'm sitting in my accent. almost same driving dynamics in cities. Seriously i don't wanna drive a sedan now. I was eagerly waiting for i20 and is waiting for diesel. Let us see what they have got for us. I will be first one to book i20 + 1.5L VGT + ABS + EBD. But sad they wont bring 1.5L crdi.

swift vdi costs : 5,13,835 ex new delhi
i20 1.5L crdi : 7.5L OTR

Duh!! who will buy i20 crdi? lolzz almost Verna crdi's cost..

Last edited by Gangsta : 13th January 2009 at 12:59.
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Old 13th January 2009, 13:16   #513
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But do you think Hyundai wants to spend on diesel engines, when they already have the 1.5 CRDi ready. I think this 1.2 Kappa thing is just to create some buzz. Later on they'll plonk the 1.5, claim no tax benefits and price it in the 7.5L OTR levels.
They're already doing it with the 1.4 Crdi for export. So you can expect the 1.4 Crdi to be launched. Infact, in one of the interviews, HS Lheem spoke of quite a number of engine options (6!) in which this car will be produced for export: 1.2 petrol, 1.4 petrol, 1.6 petrol, 1.4 Crdi (low speed), 1.4 Crdi (high speed), 1.6 Crdi!

So it looks quite certain that the 1.5 Crdi will not make it into the i20.

Source: In Conversation: HS Lheem Managing Director, Hyundai Motor India Limited (HMIL)- Auto-Specials-The Economic Times
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Old 13th January 2009, 13:44   #514
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They're already doing it with the 1.4 Crdi for export. So you can expect the 1.4 Crdi to be launched. Infact, in one of the interviews, HS Lheem spoke of quite a number of engine options (6!) in which this car will be produced for export: 1.2 petrol, 1.4 petrol, 1.6 petrol, 1.4 Crdi (low speed), 1.4 Crdi (high speed), 1.6 Crdi!

So it looks quite certain that the 1.5 Crdi will not make it into the i20.

Source: In Conversation: HS Lheem Managing Director, Hyundai Motor India Limited (HMIL)- Auto-Specials-The Economic Times
aha! now that's a news. 1.6L CRDi in this lil car?
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Old 13th January 2009, 14:14   #515
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Originally Posted by reppy View Post
They're already doing it with the 1.4 Crdi for export. So you can expect the 1.4 Crdi to be launched. Infact, in one of the interviews, HS Lheem spoke of quite a number of engine options (6!) in which this car will be produced for export: 1.2 petrol, 1.4 petrol, 1.6 petrol, 1.4 Crdi (low speed), 1.4 Crdi (high speed), 1.6 Crdi!

So it looks quite certain that the 1.5 Crdi will not make it into the i20.

Source: In Conversation: HS Lheem Managing Director, Hyundai Motor India Limited (HMIL)- Auto-Specials-The Economic Times
Of this, all models are already launched in the UK except the 1.6 ones. See the link below and expand the Engine menu.

Hyundai | New Cars | I20 | Technical
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Old 13th January 2009, 18:10   #516
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@romeomidhun
I am no blind hyundai fan buddy. I dont understand Why are you going on and on about swift's powerful engine. The difference between both the engines Thats of swift and i20 can be noted only above 3000RPM. Under that more or less both are same. In city driving I hardly go above 3K RPM regularly. As it is swifts lower rpm response is quite bad. So dont be surprised if you fine i20 having better driveability than swift.
Moreover swift has dated looks now. And you'll know that once you see both i20 and swift standing together. Swift rattles. Clutch problem. Quality of plastics is very poor. No leather whatsoever. In ZXI They dont even give you clutch foot rest, electrical mirror (forget foldable), No 60:40 rear seat. Moreover swifts have such a small rear window.

Swift sold becoz it had no competition whatsoever, Every other Car except swift had some major issue or other. Uva (Its Chevy age old Myth), Palio (Dated), Gets 1.1 (Underpowered) Getz 1.3(Less Mileage), Fabia(Over Priced).
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Old 13th January 2009, 18:44   #517
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So I had someone fetch me the on-road prices of the i20 (Mumbai). Comparing ex-showroom is pointless, and the taxes & insurance are proportionately larger with more expensive cars.

Hyundai i20 On-road Mumbai:

Magna : 559,094
Asta : 651,195
Asta O : 676,513

For reference, here is the Swift

Swift on-road Mumbai:

LXi : 462,895
Vxi : 497,023
ZXi : 589,095 (Note that the Swift ZXI, its additional features, currently accounts for a small percentage of Swift sales.)

The difference between the mid-equipped Swift and i20 is a whopping 1.54 lakhs! And the ZXi vis a vis Asta O differential is nearly 80,000! A 1.2L hatch for 6.5 lakhs? I can hardly wait to see how the numbers settle down once the new launch dust has settled

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Originally Posted by reppy View Post
Hyundai gave you the answer - instead of targeting those customers who are looking for power/efficiency/torque, they are after the customers who are rating features/build quality/safety over power/torque/efficiency etc.
Sure. And if their sales targets are low to begin with, we can stop discussing the products success. As I just posted, lets wait and watch to see what customers really prefer.

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Moreover, Hyundai could have put in the 1.4 and raised the price by another 20-30k, making the car look like an awesome deal at 6-6.2 lacs on road. But the government policy does not allow them to do that - they'll be slapped with an extra 8% excise.
Please don't live under a false impression and blame the pricing on "government policy". Let's not get naive here. Look at the on-road prices at the top of my post...It is all about profitability. It is due to an attitude like this that a less-for-more product exists. Why can't we have a more-for-same or more-for-less product line? History shows, it is these cars that sell the most. Hyundai knows it themselves with the Santro. The key word here is value which the i20 provides little of.

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So lets just say that the i20, and not the Fabia, is going to create the opening for the premium supermini segment,
Wouldn't Hyundai wish?! We need to realise that a premium positioning requires a premium brand. Fortunately or unfortunately, Skoda is perceived as a premium brand in India. While Hyundai isn't! Not by a long shot.

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And if the heavier car has a lower coefficient of drag
Drag counts for dung at speeds less than 40 kph; this is where we spend most of our time in the city.

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and a tuned-for-torque/efficiency version of the same engine/gearbox?
The kappa engine isn't particularly known for its low-end torque. In fact, the Santro's original engine fares much better here. TD the different i10 variants to know more.

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Maybe it is as per you or the forum*. I clearly gave you my perception.
Not me, that's the opinion of 90% of Swift owners. If I have 300 Swift owners saying something, and one non-owner opposing, it is safe to presume what is true.

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Originally Posted by Elito11 View Post
Coming back to topic the ONLY flaw with i20 is the 1.2L engine. and that IS WHY it is being accused of being overpriced.
Hit the nail right on the head. You can't have premium positioning and then, put in a small engine (for excise benefits) and one that offers sub-par performance. If the i20 had a better engine at the same price, I'd be much happier.

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Also has anyone looked at profitibility??
Agreed. The uncompetitive pricing has to do more with profitability rather than cost. Actually, most cars today aren't priced on the cost + profit model. It is based on the maximum, that the company thinks, the market will pay for it. Sadly, Hyundai has gotten it all wrong with the i20.

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Originally Posted by gunbir View Post
According to some people the Getz was supposed to be overpriced
Not supposed to be. It was. 92% of this community thinks so - link to thread (Do you think that the Hyundai Getz is overpriced?). Any research specialist will tell you that our memberbase offers amongst the best research samples available. I could share with you the long hours that top research organisations (and I mean TOP) spend on Team-BHP.

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If the i20 is overpriced, what are cars like Chevrolet SRV, Skoda Fabia?
Verrrrrrrrrrry overpriced. Their market failure attests to this fact. I hope you aren't keeping the SRV or the Fabia as a benchmark of success!

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Sure the Swift sells 9000 units a month. Well, the M800 probably still sells more than that
Actually Gunbir, the Swift does sell more than the 800. Go figure.

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Originally Posted by lancer_rit View Post
(No hatch tops Fusion's 1.6l petrol engine).
In performance, the Palio 1.6 is an equal match. However, both the Palio 1.6 and the Fusion 1.6 bombed. Why? They didn't serve the markets needs, which is of efficiency. Heck, efficiency matters even to the Indian customer who has a 15 lakh rupee budget.

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They should provide other engine options as well, and that would make the i20 line more balanced.
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Release with lower spec engine and chalk up sales with novelty, looks and features. Then, launch a higher end engine, split the models and add to it, and charge more for the bigger engined one(s).
Correct. But my problem is this : The i20 is so premium priced with the 1.2L engine, they simply haven't left room for the 1.4 and (God forbid) a common-rail diesel. How much will the 1.4 sell for? 7.25 lakhs? Diesel at 8 lakhs? Good luck, Hyundai. You gonna need it.

I am curious to know what pricing you think is appropriate for the larger engines. Please reply back with on-the-road numbers.

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BTW, in the Passat 1.6, I touched 200kmph
Top speed is irrelevant. I have cruised at over 200 kmph in the C180 and it still was a pretty under-powered car.

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so its possible they are not having a clear idea of how to go about it above the Santro/Accent/i10 range.
Spot on! They have shown their incompetence in handling the 6+ lakh segment.

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Civic charged 20-25% premium over Optra, Cedia, Elantra and still sold more than all of them and Corolla combined during its heyday.
The market caught up with the Civic, didn't it? It is currently languishing.

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Only the Altis launch has halted Civic sales.
Incorrect information. At the end of 2008, the Civic experienced 15 straight months of a sales decline. That was way before the Altis even came into the picture.
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Old 13th January 2009, 18:55   #518
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If i am not mistaken there exists a sop for a small car size too, I20 gets that right? Any guesses how much Hyundai wants to make on this car (MARGINS!)
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Old 13th January 2009, 19:04   #519
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Originally Posted by somebodystopme View Post
@romeomidhun


Swift sold becoz it had no competition whatsoever, Every other Car except swift had some major issue or other. Uva (Its Chevy age old Myth), Palio (Dated), Gets 1.1 (Underpowered) Getz 1.3(Less Mileage), Fabia(Over Priced).
Very true. I second that.



And I am sure after 1 year we will see same comment in context of some new launch..


Swift sold becoz it had no competition whatsoever, Every other Car except swift had some major issue or other. Uva (Its Chevy age old Myth), Palio (Dated), Gets 1.1 (Underpowered) Getz 1.3(Less Mileage), Fabia, i20 (Over Priced).


-Sanjubaba
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Old 13th January 2009, 19:31   #520
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IMHO although 1.2L is being provided for tax benefits, Hyundai is not passing those benefits to end customers. It is over priced currently and a 1.4 for 10/20K would have been a very sensible decision on their part.
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Old 13th January 2009, 20:32   #521
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Originally Posted by GTO View Post
So I had someone fetch me the on-road prices of the i20 (Mumbai). Comparing ex-showroom is pointless, and the taxes & insurance are proportionately larger with more expensive cars.

Hyundai i20 On-road Mumbai:

Magna : 559,094
Asta : 651,195
Asta O : 676,513

For reference, here is the Swift

Swift on-road Mumbai:

LXi : 462,895
Vxi : 497,023
ZXi : 589,095 (Note that the Swift ZXI, its additional features, currently accounts for a small percentage of Swift sales.)

The difference between the mid-equipped Swift and i20 is a whopping 1.54 lakhs! And the ZXi vis a vis Asta O differential is nearly 80,000! A 1.2L hatch for 6.5 lakhs? I can hardly wait to see how the numbers settle down once the new launch dust has settled
Ok so for a 5.59 ex-showroom (Asta) there is almost 1 lakh difference in on-road price. Care to explain where this 1 lakh is going? It surely aint going in Hyundai's pockets. Its ridiculous to blame Hyundai for that!
Prices of all commodities are different in different places. Here in Noida vegetables/fruits cost almost 2-3 times the price in my hometown. But then people here in Noida also make more money than most people (in most jobs) in my hometown.
Anyway we can keep harping on these kind of arguments forever. It goes nowhere. We have to live where we are and to put up with whatever the prices.

Coming down to actual argument, the car itself. Why cant you fathom Hyundai can command 10% premium over Maruti (even when they are providing a 100% better built car)? Probably (and almost likely) Hyundai arent interested in competition with Swift as far as i20 is concerned. For them i10 is doing that (look at i10 prices - in Swift territory but still selling like hot cakes). i20 is meant to fight with the Fabia as of now, and it is a clear winner in that (as of today as GP/Jazz arent available). i10 has given Hyundai confidence that people are willing to pay for quality/luxury/features. They have actually nothing to lose with i20 (as it wasnt even meant for India! They just launched it here as it is built here and will rake in fantastic margins for whatever number they sell). If people like it then they might launch more engines/diesel as well. Its a good strategy IMO.

Anyway just like Melody/Coffee this argument also continues... As far as I am concerned I am happy coz I was exactly looking for this kind of car! A luxurious feature-rich and safe hatch for my daily use. I would have bought a Fabia if the accessories/parts werent so horribly priced. But now I have an excellent option in i20!
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Old 13th January 2009, 21:48   #522
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Sure the Swift sells 9000 units a month. Well, the M800 probably still sells more than that

Actually Gunbir, the Swift does sell more than the 800. Go figure.

Hit the nail on the head GTO. Couldnt control my laughter after reading that. Actually its quite funny that many ppl bash MUL for making cars that are succesful, and when shown the sales figures they refer to the same old 800 argument. Comparing cars in different segments to make a false argument.

Getz was expensive to begin with, as soon as Swift was launched they did bring in huge discounts on Getz. Its failure like lack of power, low mileage, boring looks did no good when pitted against Swift. Of course better build, more space, etc didnt count for much as far as most Indians were concerned. As Swift overall was a better package.

I agree with almost everything GTO said, apart from the fact that Swift Vxi cant be compared to i20 Asta, if simply based on features it has to be compared to i10 Magna, and still it wont have the Stereo that Magna comes with. So the price difference is actually 60k, which would have been more than justified provided they had a better engine. I think all cars expect Sonata Emberra and Santro in Hyundai portfolio are overpriced. They got away with it in i10, but barring that all their recent launches have been failures mainly due to being over price!!!
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Old 13th January 2009, 22:27   #523
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Hit the nail on the head GTO. Couldnt control my laughter after reading that. Actually its quite funny that many ppl bash MUL for making cars that are succesful, and when shown the sales figures they refer to the same old 800 argument. Comparing cars in different segments to make a false argument.

Getz was expensive to begin with, as soon as Swift was launched they did bring in huge discounts on Getz. Its failure like lack of power, low mileage, boring looks did no good when pitted against Swift. Of course better build, more space, etc didnt count for much as far as most Indians were concerned. As Swift overall was a better package.

I agree with almost everything GTO said, apart from the fact that Swift Vxi cant be compared to i20 Asta, if simply based on features it has to be compared to i10 Magna, and still it wont have the Stereo that Magna comes with. So the price difference is actually 60k, which would have been more than justified provided they had a better engine. I think all cars expect Sonata Emberra and Santro in Hyundai portfolio are overpriced. They got away with it in i10, but barring that all their recent launches have been failures mainly due to being over price!!!
oh man you forgot to add Accent executive 4.99 lakh in the list of sonata and santro.. or is it overpriced?

Verna CRDi = failure ?? now that's a news for me.
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Old 13th January 2009, 22:30   #524
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i think aseem got carried away while writing. You can add accent crdi and verna crdi from his side
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Old 13th January 2009, 22:54   #525
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@romeomidhun
I am no blind hyundai fan buddy. I dont understand Why are you going on and on about swift's powerful engine. The difference between both the engines Thats of swift and i20 can be noted only above 3000RPM. Under that more or less both are same. In city driving I hardly go above 3K RPM regularly. As it is swifts lower rpm response is quite bad. So dont be surprised if you fine i20 having better driveability than swift.
Moreover swift has dated looks now. And you'll know that once you see both i20 and swift standing together. Swift rattles. Clutch problem. Quality of plastics is very poor. No leather whatsoever. In ZXI They dont even give you clutch foot rest, electrical mirror (forget foldable), No 60:40 rear seat. Moreover swifts have such a small rear window.

Swift sold becoz it had no competition whatsoever, Every other Car except swift had some major issue or other. Uva (Its Chevy age old Myth), Palio (Dated), Gets 1.1 (Underpowered) Getz 1.3(Less Mileage), Fabia(Over Priced).
Maruti was able to price the Swift to their advantage because they used the modified version of Esteem's engine. Hyundai had to bring to a new engine to Getz 1.3. Also Getz would have sold more if they had brought the 1.1 engine earlier ( before the launch of Swift ).

And i20 has the passenger space of a sedan and features than sedans above 10+ lakhs. Swift sales are unlikely to be affected by the i20. One car that can kill i20 is Fiat's GP. With its diesel engine it can give i20 a run for its money.

For those who say i20 is overpriced, I would like to know where Maruti places the Splash/Ritz. I guess it will be above Swift, thats where Maruti will feel the heat.
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