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Old 2nd January 2009, 16:01   #61
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Well, while on one hand great 20-80, 40-100 and 0-100, all are nice to have but for me driveability is defined by the way these figures are delivered.
To me a car has better driveability (in city) if the power/speed being delivered is linear in nature. Even if the car is a couple of secs slower in outright figures, its okay but as long as the car has predictable pick-up and braking its really a good car to drive in the city IMHO.

I say this after having driven a couple of modern diesel cars, Fiesta, Fusion, Swift Vdi. I wouldnt talk about Swift as the drives were too short to comment. But about Fusion and Fiesta (TDci), I am confident about what I am saying. These cars depend heavily on Turbo....and thats horrible to drive in the city. When the RPM is not in turbo (RPM < 1500 and RPM >3000) they are almost as sluggish as a loaded Omni and when the RPM is within Turbo the car is nothing short of a Vtec. Now, even if this car poses the best acceleration (roll-on or outright 0-100) figures, it would be at the bottom of my list as far as driveability is concerned. I have faced situations driving a Fusion TDci in the city where I try overtaking a vehicle in front of me and just when I thought I would easily pass by I see that the vehicle has crossed the Turbo band is now desparate for a gear change....so desparate that if I dont do it, I need to abort the overtake, what the hell. This is not a one off case, I have faced such issues many a times and I attribute this to the irregular behaviour pattern of the vehicle's power delivery. I would anyday prefer an Alto over a Fusion for driveability...even though the former would easily lose out to the later if it was all about figures. Thats because an Alto has a lot more predictable power delivery and I dont have to plan a lot before an overtake or even just following the traffic. To me its "HOW" and not exactly "HOW MUCH" that matters when it comes to Power delivery.

I have not driven a Verna or a Linea so cant comment on them. But a 0-100, 20-80 or 40-100 figure gives a very vague picture of driveability in my opinion.

Last edited by Pani : 2nd January 2009 at 16:17. Reason: addtion
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Old 2nd January 2009, 16:24   #62
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I have not driven a Verna or a Linea so cant comment on them. But a 0-100, 20-80 or 40-100 figure gives a very vague picture of driveability in my opinion.
If still a conclusion "has to be drawn" based on it, I wouldnt take it very seriously.
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Old 2nd January 2009, 17:04   #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gangsta View Post
may i know which car you own? because of the diesel cars are sluggish at 1k rpm in 3rd gear? me myself owns Elantra CRDi, i wont stress it up by changing 3rd gear at 20 kmph in elantra atleast.
i have a Vista Quadrajet. i always enter 3rd after the car crosses 20kmph and there is no sluggishness. i decided on this speed as the minimum for 3rd gear since that is the speed the car cruises in, when i engage 3rd and let go the accelerator and clutch. for all the gears i maintain an RPM range of 1000 to 2000-2200 rpms. for 3rd gear, 40-42 kmph translates to around 2000+ rpms and thats when i upshift to 4th (not possible in most traffic conditions).

i dont upshift (2 to 3 or 3 to 4) at 2000-2200 rpms if i see that the clear road ahead is only for a short distance and i would have to downshift again quickly. in this case, i continue in the same gear. for this purpose the 3rd gear in Vista quadrajet serves very well in the range of 20-45 kmph.
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Old 2nd January 2009, 17:36   #64
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Originally Posted by CtrlAltDel View Post
i dont upshift (2 to 3 or 3 to 4) at 2000-2200 rpms if i see that the clear road ahead is only for a short distance and i would have to downshift again quickly. in this case, i continue in the same gear. for this purpose the 3rd gear in Vista quadrajet serves very well in the range of 20-45 kmph.
slightly OT here: isnt 2nd to 3rd or 3rd to 4th called downshifting?
i think 4th to 3rd is upshifting, am i wrong?
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Old 2nd January 2009, 17:44   #65
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Theoretically, I think 0-100 matters most when it comes to racing. But when it comes to everyday city driving, I guess low-end torque matters than these figures. For example, i find Swift Diesel to be much easier to drive in the city than my SX4. It is a different matter in the highways though.

IMHO, a lot depends on the drivers. If a person is determined to race hard in a Swift, for example, I don't know how many cars can actually give sustained driving edge for a long time.

I drive extensively on the Chennai-Bangalore highways [one of the best in India], and what I've noted is that the average speed and time taken to reach point A from B almost always depends on the driver, with a the car's influence being marginal.
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Old 2nd January 2009, 22:17   #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by raj_5004 View Post
slightly OT here: isnt 2nd to 3rd or 3rd to 4th called downshifting?
i think 4th to 3rd is upshifting, am i wrong?
i dont think so. 4th and 5th gears are the "top gears" so i believe one has to "upshift" to reach them.

am i right guys?
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Old 2nd January 2009, 22:25   #67
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Originally Posted by CtrlAltDel View Post
i dont think so. 4th and 5th gears are the "top gears" so i believe one has to "upshift" to reach them.

am i right guys?

I think you are correct. Upshifting = shifting to higher gear.
Downshift = shifting to lower gear.

I think that this is being confused with ShortShifting.
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Old 2nd January 2009, 23:46   #68
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guys..

i tried a 20-80 in 3rd gear in my petra today and i reached 80 in roughly 10secs!!
now..isnt that quick?
i shifted to 3rd exactly at 20kmph and around 900 rpm and then let go.a fried sitting next to me counted the secs.i didnt have a close look at the rpm at 80kmph but i guess it was roughly 4000rpm.
later just as a test i almost always shifted to 3rd at 20kmph and not once did the engine knock and it pulled amazingly well.
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Old 3rd January 2009, 00:17   #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by raj_5004 View Post
slightly OT here: isnt 2nd to 3rd or 3rd to 4th called downshifting?
i think 4th to 3rd is upshifting, am i wrong?
Yes sir youre wrong. Its exactly opposite to what you mentioned.
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Old 3rd January 2009, 00:31   #70
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Default Totally agree with Pani.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pani View Post
Even if the car is a couple of secs slower in outright figures, its okay but as long as the car has predictable pick-up and braking its really a good car to drive in the city IMHO.

an Alto has a lot more predictable power delivery and I dont have to plan a lot before an overtake or even just following the traffic. To me its "HOW" and not exactly "HOW MUCH" that matters when it comes to Power delivery.

But a 0-100, 20-80 or 40-100 figure gives a very vague picture of driveability in my opinion.
I totally agree with Pani on his insights into power delivery. If you want a good picture about a vehicles driveability we should have a look at its torque and bhp curve on the graph. Peak torque and bhp is rarely used and what we usually taste is the mid band torque and more of it the merrier. If you guys want to have a pocket rocket thats frugal and just as good for high speed runs on our highways wait for the Punto to be released with the MJDVGT engine. All your prayers for getting the fastest time from point A to point B will be answered. The 0-100 times may be not that alluring in the Punto but it will have nearly all other cars for breakfast considering its torque to weight ratio once it gets rolling. Even cars costing three times as much would have to think real hard before comtemplating an over taking maneuvour.
I have a GTX and was planning on the Optra magnum but after a race in the twisties in my native village in Ernakulam I have dropped plans of the Optra. GM's financial condition is also a deterrent. I am hoping against hope that the Punto MJDVGT gives me better driving pleasure than the GTX.

Last edited by drpullockaran : 3rd January 2009 at 00:38.
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Old 3rd January 2009, 00:41   #71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shantyrocks View Post
guys..

i tried a 20-80 in 3rd gear in my petra today and i reached 80 in roughly 10secs!!
now..isnt that quick?
i shifted to 3rd exactly at 20kmph and around 900 rpm and then let go.a fried sitting next to me counted the secs.i didnt have a close look at the rpm at 80kmph but i guess it was roughly 4000rpm.
later just as a test i almost always shifted to 3rd at 20kmph and not once did the engine knock and it pulled amazingly well.
The 1.6 FIAT petrol engines have knock sensors. Its impossible for you to get the engine to knock. The engine will stutter and stall but never knock and if it does knock or ping its time to change your knock sensor.
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Old 3rd January 2009, 01:08   #72
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Originally Posted by drpullockaran View Post
The 1.6 FIAT petrol engines have knock sensors. Its impossible for you to get the engine to knock. The engine will stutter and stall but never knock and if it does knock or ping its time to change your knock sensor.
i was not aware of this.
but still the engine didnt stutter and stall either.....
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Old 5th January 2009, 21:36   #73
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shantyrocks View Post
you are wrong my friend.
the verna is slow even from 40-100 compared to the linea.
Not really Shanty. What Gangsta meant is - Verna will smoke Linea in 40-100 in 3rd gear, where its in the right power band.

0-100 is unquestionably an indicator for outright performance. It need not be a drag - it could be a traffic signal, in slow moving traffic or on highway. A car with a better 0-100 can outrace the other car. The driver just have to just know the right rev band/gear for the car and slot it.

By driveability, we mean the ability to drive with reasonable performance without frequent gear shifts. As Linea has better figures for 20-80 in 3rd, and 40-100 in 4th gear compared to Verna, we can conclude that its a better car in driveability (in city and mostly even in highways)

Quote:
Originally Posted by shantyrocks View Post
the purpose of this thread is only to discuss the outright acceleration versus in gear acceleration and how many of us in daily driving get a chance for out right 0-100 kmph acceleration.
hmm... i guess you answered your original question anyway!
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Old 5th January 2009, 22:29   #74
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I still disagree with this 20-80 timing in 3rd. Only a very lazy or a very stupid driver would try that in normal circumstances.

As Shan2nu keeps saying, the only point of this statistic is to tell you how the car's gear ratios are spaced out. Most manufacturers sell cars in India with really tall gear ratios, and so you're forced to downshift to get any decent performance out of the car.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SkyWalker View Post
By driveability, we mean the ability to drive with reasonable performance without frequent gear shifts.
In that case why not just get an automatic?
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Old 5th January 2009, 22:38   #75
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Quote:
Originally Posted by theEnd View Post
Most manufacturers sell cars in India with really tall gear ratios, and so you're forced to downshift to get any decent performance out of the car
So when you see a good 40-100 figure in 4th and 20-80 in 3rd, you know you can downshift less.

Quote:
Originally Posted by theEnd View Post
In that case why not just get an automatic?
Indeed. That would be the best option for people looking for driveability as against outright performance. But then not all cars under 10L have an auto, and people choose against it due to:
a)higher price range
b)low mileage
there's a separate thread on this topic though.

Last edited by SkyWalker : 5th January 2009 at 22:41.
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