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Old 11th January 2009, 17:22   #91
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Originally Posted by aaggoswami View Post
There are many reasons for this :

1) The way the Indian engineers are involved in development of A-star and I have read that this car was developed within a short time frame.

2) Price. Maruti is not asking Rs. 6-7 lakh for this car and trying to sell in premium zone like I20 or Fabia.

3) Date of launch : Highly debated, but I suppose we know it all.

4) Market that is being trageted. A-star is not in the market where the car will be chauffeur driven. May it could be true ( I have seen people hiring chauffeur for M800 and the chauffeur enjoys a better ride upfront ), but its not as wide spread as in the segment of Linea. For a car this costly, the space should be more atleast for the passengers.

5) Engine. A-star has a nice engine that is also lightweight. Dry weight is just 47kg. Its a new generation engine and an improvement over one of the best engines made by man i.e. the G-series ( IMO ). A-star is not a shortcut here, but Linea is.

6) A.S & S. There are many threads for Fiat A.S & S. I had mentioned somewhere, I dont remember in which thread, but a person buys a car to use and not to put it up in museum.

To me Linea is not a package worth more than 6.5 at the most OTR. May be less considering the above factors.

To me COTY is a car that as a complete package is good for the end user in more than one way. If you have fantastic engine, but a dealership experience that is going down and the car itself is underequipped ( G3HC ), then also the car is not worth COTY from any institution.
Nice to see someone comparing apples & peanuts for a change. Oranges are too usual to compare, aint it?


Quote:
Originally Posted by aaggoswami View Post
To me Linea is not a package worth more than 6.5 at the most OTR. May be less considering the above factors.
A Linea is for sure built quite nice with more features to be worth more than rattlesnakes which cost around 6 Lakh OTR and also borrow the engine from Fiat!
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Old 11th January 2009, 17:31   #92
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RX135 and Skywalker, you guys didn't read the statement properly. Check out the statement below in bold.

Quote:
To me Linea is not a package worth more than 6.5 at the most OTR. May be less considering the above factors.
Could you please quantify the 'maybe less' part?

Quote:
Nice to see someone comparing apples & peanuts for a change.

Last edited by amit : 11th January 2009 at 17:33.
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Old 11th January 2009, 18:41   #93
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Originally Posted by aaggoswami View Post
To me Linea is not a package worth more than 6.5 at the most OTR. May be less considering the above factors.
6.5!!!! FIAT must be nuts for pricing so high. tata is bringing nano for just a lac or two!!!!!

But seriously, have we lost it all in bashing fiat. We should be pointing fingers towards autocar and autocar only. FIAT is doing its job by marketing it as a COTY. Ethical or unethical, they need to survive.
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Old 11th January 2009, 19:18   #94
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Originally Posted by RX135 View Post
I look forward to the day when you start building and selling cars. Trust me, I'll be your first customer if you are going to price them so well.

On second thoughts, I am not sure how long would your company last
1) Thank You Sir, but that is what I believe in.
If Nano comes out with all the above features and a 250cc engine, will it get the same treatment ? Same COTY award and similar appreciation ?
If Suzuki Swift came out with all features and 500cc engine, again will it be praised to the extent it is done now ?

I am not sure about company because I am yet to start, and I wont be doing it as I am from a middle class family.


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Originally Posted by SkyWalker View Post
Yes, may be to me a C class is worth about 10L at the most OTR.

Before passing judgments like this you should see the car, and compare the competition and then decide.
  • Are you aware that an Octavia is selling close to 13L on road?
  • Fiesta which is a size smaller sells for 8-9L on road!
  • Dezire, which has cramped interiors sells for 7L on road
2) Thank You Sir.
Octavia has a bigger heart and gives out more performance.
Fiesta and Verna are again overpriced.
Dzire costs more because it has an engine that if from Fiat.
Now do you know that Swift with same Fiat engine sells more than Palio with the same motor ? Why ?
Do you know that Dzire sells more than Palio which happens to be cheaper than Palio and comes with same motor ? Why ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by anachronix View Post
Nice to see someone comparing apples & peanuts for a change. Oranges are too usual to compare, aint it?

A Linea is for sure built quite nice with more features to be worth more than rattlesnakes which cost around 6 Lakh OTR and also borrow the engine from Fiat!
3) Thank You Sir.
As far as COTY awards are concerned, I think there comparison is done between cars and not fruits. I dont know if those people eat fruits or not, but COTY stands for " Car Of The Year ".
And the precise answer is again Point number 1.

Quote:
Originally Posted by amit View Post

Could you please quantify the 'maybe less' part?
4) Sir, I think I will do it.
Considering what is being offered and in general what is being offered as A.S & S., I made the above statement. Swift and Dzire with same engine and sells more in a market more oriented towards value rather than badge.
Why ? Something is wrong with Fiat.

@all:
I believe that Heart is very important.
I believe that Engine is heart of the car.
I think all of this is my opinion.
For me, COTY must go to a car that has everything at least average, and not a few great features and a very poor heart. BTW, about features, does Linea have directional headlamps ? They are again safety feature. Does it have Xenon lights in all models ? Lights are important as we know and more so in India. Does it a highly adjustable steering wheel ?
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Old 11th January 2009, 19:38   #95
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Originally Posted by aaggoswami View Post
1) Thank You Sir, but that is what I believe in.
If Nano comes out with all the above features and a 250cc engine, will it get the same treatment ? Same COTY award and similar appreciation ?
If Suzuki Swift came out with all features and 500cc engine, again will it be praised to the extent it is done now ?
If Nano was to be considered in the poll, even without all above, I would have blindly rated it as COTY, simply because it has potential to radically change automobile scene in India. It probably is going to be single most significant release in Indian automobile history (as significant as Maruti 800 in cars and Ind-Suzuki/RX-100 in bikes).

But IMHO, expecting car of size and features of D-segment at 6.5L OTR is stretching your imagination bit too thin.
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Old 11th January 2009, 20:05   #96
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Originally Posted by Comrade View Post
FIAT is doing its job by marketing it as a COTY. Ethical or unethical, they need to survive.
Yep, in fact if FIAT has paid for the award - its a good thing as at leats their marketing department seems to be doing soemthing

Quote:
Originally Posted by aaggoswami View Post
2) Thank You Sir.
Octavia has a bigger heart and gives out more performance.
lets compare Octy D and Linea as given by ACI & OD

0-100 : 15.04 , 13.46 : Octy has a 1.4 sec advantage
20-80 in 3rd : 11.86, 12.9 : Linea has a 1 sec advantage
40-100 in 4th : 13.64,25.3 : Linea has a substantial advantage

Bhp is same (90), torque is better in Linea. You think Octy can be 13L OTR, but Linea should be <6.5L

Quote:
Originally Posted by aaggoswami View Post
Fiesta and Verna are again overpriced.
aren't you missing something? By your logic Verna should be priced above Octy, as it got a better engine. It can beat Octy hands down (0-100 in 11.23secs, >2 secs diff), so it should be priced at least at 15L OTR. Someone please let Hyundai know

Quote:
Originally Posted by aaggoswami View Post
Dzire costs more because it has an engine that if from Fiat.
I see - so we should pay more money for Maruti since they cannot develop a Multijet on their own, and less for FIAT - how dare they develop it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by aaggoswami View Post
Now do you know that Swift with same Fiat engine sells more than Palio with the same motor ? Why ?
Do you know that Dzire sells more than Palio which happens to be cheaper than Palio and comes with same motor ? Why ?
I never said Swift sells less. I don't think Linea will ever outsell Dezire, nor FIAT expects it to be. But then if sales is the only criteria, then Alto is a much better car than RR Phantom, and the Phantom needs a major price revision

Quote:
Originally Posted by aaggoswami View Post
BTW, about features, does Linea have directional headlamps ? They are again safety feature. Does it have Xenon lights in all models ? Lights are important as we know and more so in India. Does it a highly adjustable steering wheel ?
Does SX4 has all these? I believe you are OK with SX4 selling at 8L OTR? Does any diesel car selling under 10L in India have this?

Last edited by SkyWalker : 11th January 2009 at 20:20.
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Old 11th January 2009, 20:29   #97
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Originally Posted by aaggoswami View Post
3) Thank You Sir.
As far as COTY awards are concerned, I think there comparison is done between cars and not fruits. I dont know if those people eat fruits or not, but COTY stands for " Car Of The Year ".
And the precise answer is again Point number 1.
Thanks for reminding me that you were talking about cars rather than apples, peanuts & oranges.

A-Star has internationally replaced the Alto. And in India we have the good old MUL positioning it a level above the Alto. Oh yeah, we indians buy cars looking at just A.S.S! No matter whats inside the tin people love it for the badge!

Quote:
Originally Posted by aaggoswami View Post
@all:
I believe that Heart is very important.
I believe that Engine is heart of the car.
I think all of this is my opinion.
For me, COTY must go to a car that has everything at least average, and not a few great features and a very poor heart. BTW, about features, does Linea have directional headlamps ? They are again safety feature. Does it have Xenon lights in all models ? Lights are important as we know and more so in India. Does it a highly adjustable steering wheel ?
Directional headlamps!? Xenon lights!? My friend... Some manufacturers dont even offer a rear-demister or rear-headrest for a car which costs almost 7 Lacs OTR!

Bias at times makes your mind go over your heart! And that is what I see here! The Linea may not deserve to be here in the calendar year of 2008 awards. But do you think your arguement makes some justification to a good car which is being launched in the market that could revolutionise a complete segment.

Did your mind go over your heart? Take a TD of the Linea and do write up here! Its disappointing to see such comments here!
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Old 11th January 2009, 20:36   #98
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Originally Posted by RX135 View Post
But IMHO, expecting car of size and features of D-segment at 6.5L OTR is stretching your imagination bit too thin.
Yes, this is the problem. A D-segment car with poor rear seat space and B-segment engine.
So a Merc C-class can come with 1.6 ltr diesel, and features to be rated good ?
IMO NO.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SkyWalker View Post
1) lets compare Octy D and Linea as given by ACI & OD
0-100 : 15.04 , 13.46 : Octy has a 1.4 sec advantage
20-80 in 3rd : 11.86, 12.9 : Linea has a 1 sec advantage
40-100 in 4th : 13.64,25.3 : Linea has a substantial advantage
Bhp is same (90), torque is better in Linea. You think Octy can be 13L OTR, but Linea should be <6.5L


2) aren't you missing something? By your logic Verna should be priced above Octy, as it got a better engine. It can beat Octy hands down (0-100 in 11.23secs, >2 secs diff), so it should be priced at least at 15L OTR. Someone please let Hyundai know

3) I see - so we should pay more money for Maruti since they cannot develop a Multijet on their own, and less for FIAT - how dare they develop it?

4) I never said Swift sells less. I don't think Linea will ever outsell Dezire, nor FIAT expects it to be. But then if sales is the only criteria, then Alto is a much better car than RR Phantom, and the Phantom needs a major price revision

5) Does SX4 has all these? I believe you are OK with SX4 selling at 8L OTR? Does any diesel car selling under 10L in India have this?
1) Octy has a larger engine that helps it cruise well and affords a higher top speed.

2) Hyundai Verna is not dynamically as good a car as Octy and also Octy is safer. Hyundai has a good heart, but other things except A.S & S. is not good.

3) Why Fiat allowed Suzuki to produce engine under license in the first place. If we keep history aside, Maruti has a logical reason to ask for more money for Dzire.

4) Its not about price revision, but offering a good product at a price. Here Linea fails as a car becasue of engine and fails as a complete package becasue of Fiat.

5) But SX4 never targetted the D-segment price with B segment engine and just backed upon so called Features. What I meant is that Linea does not even have that good features available.
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Old 11th January 2009, 20:46   #99
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aaggoswami View Post
@all:
I believe that Heart is very important.
I believe that Engine is heart of the car.
I think all of this is my opinion.
For me, COTY must go to a car that has everything at least average, and not a few great features and a very poor heart.
Just one question. Have you driven a Linea to give your judgment on how poor the heart is?
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Old 11th January 2009, 20:54   #100
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Originally Posted by aaggoswami View Post
1) Octy has a larger engine that helps it cruise well and affords a higher top speed.
Do you rate engines by looking at the size. Then the Palio came with a 1.9 Litre engine way back in 2002! Are you ready to pay 11 Lakhs for the Palio? Bigger engine!

Quote:
Originally Posted by aaggoswami View Post
2) Hyundai Verna is not dynamically as good a car as Octy and also Octy is safer. Hyundai has a good heart, but other things except A.S & S. is not good.
What exactly is dynamics for you in a vehicle?! Badge?

Quote:
Originally Posted by aaggoswami View Post
3) Why Fiat allowed Suzuki to produce engine under license in the first place. If we keep history aside, Maruti has a logical reason to ask for more money for Dzire.
Please write to Maruti! Your suggestions are in hitting the wrong place.

Quote:
Originally Posted by aaggoswami View Post
4) Its not about price revision, but offering a good product at a price. Here Linea fails as a car becasue of engine and fails as a complete package becasue of Fiat.
Have you taken a TD of the Linea? The Bangalore BHPIans have completed their round of TD and brief reports are available in the other Fiat Linea thread. You want to call it underpowered? Now you will crack a joke!

Quote:
Originally Posted by aaggoswami View Post
5) But SX4 never targetted the D-segment price with B segment engine and just backed upon so called Features. What I meant is that Linea does not even have that good features available.
Please explain this good features that the SX4 has & the Linea doesnt. The SX4 internationally comes with a 2.0 Litre heart. Here its a 1.6 Litre heard. By your logic, is it not underpowered? Its totally incomplete when you say one does and one doesnt and dont tell what the two of them do!? Confused! Now that is how I feel reading your post.

Or please post a comparison chart between the SX4 or any car and the the LINEAaa...dmire!

Last edited by anachronix : 11th January 2009 at 21:07.
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Old 11th January 2009, 21:08   #101
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Just one question. Have you driven a Linea to give your judgment on how poor the heart is?
Driven a cousin and not the VGT, but read about it. Its not good for a car as large as Linea. A larger heart is required for the asking price.

Quote:
Originally Posted by anachronix View Post
1) Do you rate engines by looking at the size. Then the Palio came with a 1.9 Litre engine way back in 2002! Are you ready to pay 11 Lakhs for the Palio? Bigger engine!

2) What exactly is dynamics for you in a vehicle?! Badge?

3) Please write to Maruti! Your suggestions are in hitting the wrong place.

4) Have you taken a TD of the Linea? The Bangalore BHPIans have completed their round of TD and brief reports are available in the other Fiat Linea thread. You want to call it underpowered? Now you will crack a joke!

5) Please explain this good features that the SX4 has the Linea doesnt. The SX4 internationally comes with a 2.0 Litre heart. Here its a 1.6 Litre heard. By your logic, is it not underpowered? Its totally incomplete when you say one does and one doesnt and dont tell what the two of them do!? Confused! Now that is how I feel reading your post.

Or please post a comparison chart between the SX4 or any car and the the LINEAaa...dmire!
1) No way. There I was clearing doubts raised. Do you know that the 1910cc Fiat Palio was not as powerful as Octy. And that same 1910 produces 140+bhp internationally ? And Way back in 2002, Fiat launched the 1.9, but in 2009, they wont come out with 140+bhp 1.9 ? Why ? So is it that the 1.9 D even with VGT and commonrail cannot perform as good as 1248cc, and that's why Fiat is not coming up with it ?

2) No. Many things and not badge.

3) Sorry for this.

4) No, I havent. But read a lot about it. I have no itentions to crack a joke.

5) No, SX4 is not underpowered. 1.6 Jetta is. You get the idea now. Dzire is not underpowered but linea is.

Last edited by aaggoswami : 11th January 2009 at 21:11.
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Old 11th January 2009, 21:09   #102
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Originally Posted by aaggoswami View Post
1) Octy has a larger engine that helps it cruise well and affords a higher top speed.

2) Hyundai Verna is not dynamically as good a car as Octy and also Octy is safer. Hyundai has a good heart, but other things except A.S & S. is not good.

3) Why Fiat allowed Suzuki to produce engine under license in the first place. If we keep history aside, Maruti has a logical reason to ask for more money for Dzire.

4) Its not about price revision, but offering a good product at a price. Here Linea fails as a car becasue of engine and fails as a complete package becasue of Fiat.

5) But SX4 never targetted the D-segment price with B segment engine and just backed upon so called Features. What I meant is that Linea does not even have that good features available.
Dude - its difficult to discuss anything with a person who keeps changing the points of arguments. Please re-read what you have written and see how silly these arguments sound.

Cars can be rated on many parameters including brand, performance,features, handling&ride,and service. Now that you have mentioned many cars, and most of us cant follow your reasoning - can you do us a favor : compare these cars across the these parameters and tell us how much would you price each to be? It would help us understand your though process.
  1. Optra Magnum D Top End
  2. Octy D Topend
  3. Dezire Zdi
  4. SX4 ZXi
  5. Verna D Topend
  6. Fiesta D Topend

Last edited by SkyWalker : 11th January 2009 at 21:11.
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Old 11th January 2009, 21:31   #103
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It looks like I was discussing one thing with someone, and eventually, my posts looks like they are from a confused personality.
Here I would like to clarify my parameters for rating a car as COTY as the discussion is revolving around COTY.

1) Car.
How good is a car as far as chassis ( suspension, brakes, etc ), engine, space, interior build quality, etc.

2) This car is actually going to be used, so what is cost of spares, availability of spares, A.S & S., features like climate control, etc.

3) Price of the car as regards to point no. 1 and 2.

So when I look into car as a complete package ( I have used this word many times ), the car itself has to be good along with the support it would get from manufacturer.

Honda city is good for Point 1, but not 2. Linea fails in both, A-star is good in both aspects. For those who doubt my credibility to post an opinion, I have voted for A-star as per my thoughts in this thread :http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/indian...ar-2008-a.html (Team-BHP New Car Launch of the Year 2008)

I think we are down to arguments rather than discussing. Any problem with my post, please PM to me. I will not be arguing on this thread now.

Last edited by aaggoswami : 11th January 2009 at 21:47.
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Old 11th January 2009, 21:41   #104
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@aaggoswami,
please don't equate larger engine size (as in cc) with superior technology (otherwise the Americans will win every engine war). The Octavia 1.9TDI is a great engine with high fuel efficiency. However, it is a generation older than the Linea's 1.3 MJD with VGT (variable geomentry turbo). The Linea due to the VGT has very little turbo lag whatever unlike the Octavia and almost all other diesels in India. It also makes higher torque than the 1.9TDI and exactly the same BHP and the car is > 100kg lighter than Octavia.
Now, how does that make it a lesser car than the much more expensive Octavia ?
Ofcourse, one would like if 1.9MJD and other higher spec engines are also made available but these will cost more.
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Old 11th January 2009, 21:51   #105
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Originally Posted by iraghava View Post
what happens to the credibility of the whole automotive journalism sector?? No that it was something to talk about in the first place but incidents like these just seem to reinforce our suspicion that if you have the money any car can be made to win the award.
Credibility of Journalism as a whole, Automotive or not, has long been lost amongst many. Whatever we read or see, we know, has to be taken with a pinch of salt. Varying takes on same incidents from different media sources adds to the confusion, so much that one wonders most of the time, is it better to stay uninformed rather than ill-informed.

But then, how can one keep oneself denied of the daily dose of entertainment that these mediums usually presents all of us with.
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