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View Poll Results: What petrol C segment sedan would you buy?
Honda City 1.5 iVtec 113 55.39%
Fiat Linea 1.4 Fire 91 44.61%
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Old 3rd October 2009, 17:05   #676
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Originally Posted by EssYouWe View Post
Overpriced or under-specced. Its your call.
Hey, the most substantial single piece of equipment in a car is the engine. The ANHC is not only the fastest in its segment, but also the most fuel efficient & technologically laden. One really doesn't get bored of a fast car. Just ask us OHC owners who are still holding on to our cars after 7 - 10 years of ownership. I find no other sedan under 10 lakh rupees that gets as wide a wide smile on my face. The outstanding reliability of our cars is another reason why we are holding on.

Ask any of us OHC owners if we regret paying the premium price? A majority will say NO. This is after owning the car for several years. Obviously, the market seems to think so with Honda & Toyota's top customer loyalty rates.

Quote:
By the way, no one seemingly gives me a clear answer on this.
The ANHC is a pretty comfortable ride. Much more so than the SX4 & Verna, and bettered only by the Linea.

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Originally Posted by aseem View Post
Having said all that, with a greatly improved engine, and new interiors
See, that's all wishful thinking. Tell you why:

1. A more powerful engine, which the Linea truly deserves, would cost more $$$. The current petrol is not up to the mark for the awesome handling + high speed cruising that she is capable of. Neither is it very fuel efficient. The diesel Linea is a much better bet for reasons outlined earlier.

2. Better quality interiors would also cost more $$$.

Now, combine the cost of pt. 1 & pt. 2, you are looking at atleast a lakh of rupees more (conservatively, reality could be even higher). The fact is, Fiat priced the Linea exceedingly well at the time of launch (read = wafer thin margins). Reason? This was their comeback car, first all new launch in years. To make up for the reputational baggage, an incentive was needed to draw customers to showrooms. They got the best looks, ride & handling, exterior dimensions etc. However, even at this price, the Linea is settling at 800 - 900 cars in less than a year of launch. How much do you think the sales will be affected if the pricing has to shoot up by a lakh? A lot actually. Except for us enthusiasts, the market couldn't care less with more power.

Need proof of the wafer-thin margins? See how the price has already been revised (as compared to the time of launch). Its a strange situation. Neither can the Linea be priced any lower, nor will the market acceptance increase at a price higher. Fiat has given the Linea its best shot, and a good one at that.

If & when they do launch a new engine, a 1.6 diesel will make far better business sense.
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Old 5th October 2009, 20:34   #677
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Originally Posted by Shan2nu View Post
Fiat needs an engine like the Verna's to make it desirable.
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Originally Posted by Minardi View Post
But doesn't the Linea outsell the Verna?
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Originally Posted by Shan2nu View Post
Yup, i was talking in context with this comparo. Had the Linea come with 110bhp/235nm, it would have been an all-rounder.
Still (110bhp/235 nm or 1.6 engine or any superduper thing) it wouldn't have made much of a difference if we're talking about Sales Figures.

All these comparisons are academic debates & as uneven as David vs Goliath.
One from a company with impeccable record & the other from a company with equally impeccable record only difference being from inverse order !!
One from a company going strong in India for 10+ years & the other from a company which was down in the dumps in India a few months back.

Its not Linea's fault that its from Fiat stable

Its an achievement that its being compared with ANHC immediately after launch being from a company which was dead duck.
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Old 5th October 2009, 22:35   #678
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To match ANHC's performance, a new engine has to be plonked in and obviously that will lead to price hike erasing the VFM image somewhat. That can only hurt (sales) unless the current versions of Emotion Pk's are sold side by side at the existing price point.

I do not know about Linea, but ANHC was launched in all its markets around the same time. So ANHC arrived all new to India, untested in any market (there wasn't enough time gap to fix any niggles before it was launched here). While ANHC owners have been largely silent, there are quite a few niggles that were reported by Linea owners. Though they were all mostly fixed, this speaks volumes of the initial QC of Honda. They got it right, as always (w.r.t reliability), the first time around. This alone will tilt the balance towards H.

ANHC's price was raised in Apr citing yen/dollar conversion rates and the price of Linea too has been revised (around 35k increase?) over the period since its launch (which is 3 months less than ANHC, btw).
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Old 6th October 2009, 01:28   #679
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Originally Posted by pmbabu View Post
So ANHC arrived all new to India, untested in any market (there wasn't enough time gap to fix any niggles before it was launched here). While ANHC owners have been largely silent, there are quite a few niggles that were reported by Linea owners. Though they were all mostly fixed, this speaks volumes of the initial QC of Honda. They got it right, as always (w.r.t reliability), the first time around. This alone will tilt the balance towards H.
You are right @pmbabu.Even though ANHC was new, many like me were ready to buy a Honda for its reliability rather than brand image.My car has done 8700 km in 7 months and have visited the service centre only for service.But when we compare Linea to a new TATA car niggles were few.Small rectifiable niggles are ok.

When I first heard of the falling chrome parts in Linea,the memories of my Indica came back.Because the first thing that came off my Indica (Dec 1999 )DLX was the rubber beading on the roof at the second day of ownership..Most of the niggles I had in last 10 years were not serious.But they were mostly due to poor service at TASS & quality issues.

Almost every thing leaked in last 10 years.

Rainwater leaked into the cabin,culprit was poor door beadings.Was very difficult to convince the TASS.So left the car in rain in the workshop overnight.Was very difficult to solve.

Coolant leak,was due to some ignorant mechanic in TASS damaged the radiator with a tool when he accessed something near it.I was stranded in the road.Had to replace the radiator.

Then Oil leaked,but was less severe than many other cars.Solved,but the car had an appetite for oil.

Brake fluid leaked due to poor service.TASS did not check the brakes during regular service.And they applied the wrong grease to the rear brake drum so it was jammed.

Diesel leak two times due to a Rs.5/- rubber tube!.

AC gas leaked - it can be normal.But the problem was that TASS were not recognising the problem.They were saying that the cooling of my AC is normal and told me not to expect more from this pre V2 model car.I believed them for nearly 2 years.Then a local AC mechanic in TVM solved that for me.The cooling improved considerably.

Fed up by all these I serviced the car in a local workshop for the last 3 years.To my surprise the car was almost trouble free in the last 3 years.And I was really sad when I sold it in march 2009.But it was expensive to maintain than the NHC.

So it shows that a strict quality check and good service back up is essential for a good ownership experience.So ideally one should not buy a car without considering the quality of the local service centre.Especially if you want to keep the car for atleast 5 years.

Last edited by Mevtec : 6th October 2009 at 01:31.
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Old 6th October 2009, 12:25   #680
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Yep 1.6 Diesel will be the one that will make most sense for Linea when they do plok in a bigger engine. A bigger petrol with price increase will take it close to ANHC territory but why bother when you can change the game with a more powerful diesel.

It think that the minor issues with Linea crome bits falling off or some rough edges in the interior plastics are not what is affecting sales, people are just playing safe with FIAT as a brand and holding on to see how it does. Today in bombay you do see a lot of lineas but not that many puntos and the numbers for both need to increase to much more for the masses to put confidence in FIAT cars.
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Old 6th October 2009, 13:23   #681
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Originally Posted by EssYouWe View Post

By the way, no one seemingly gives me a clear answer on this. When I drove the ANHC, I found the ride quality to be very bumpy.
I gotta agree with you on this. I own a ANHC and i agree its ride is a little on harsher side. ANHC is under tyred too. Its not that bad, but yes Linea wins hands down in that department.
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Old 6th October 2009, 15:12   #682
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Well written review, Aseem.
I feel Linea is too confusing. Looks upmarket outside, but cheaper on the inside. Cheaper to own, but resale value is low. Beige is good, yet not good here due to cheap material being used.
I would prefer the City for the straigth forward design, engineering and performance. Yet the price Honda asks for this is IMHO, very high. It could at least 1-2L cheaper.
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Old 6th October 2009, 16:19   #683
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Originally Posted by Crank View Post
Well written review, Aseem.
I feel Linea is too confusing. Looks upmarket outside, but cheaper on the inside. Cheaper to own, but resale value is low. Beige is good, yet not good here due to cheap material being used.
I would prefer the City for the straigth forward design, engineering and performance. Yet the price Honda asks for this is IMHO, very high. It could at least 1-2L cheaper.
Sir, with due respects, do you know of any Linea owner who wants to sell his/her car and at a throw away prices? just because the car is from Fiat does not mean that the resale value has to be low. I am yet to come across any Fiat Lineas in the second hand car market.
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Old 6th October 2009, 17:33   #684
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Originally Posted by amtak View Post
Sir, with due respects, do you know of any Linea owner who wants to sell his/her car and at a throw away prices? just because the car is from Fiat does not mean that the resale value has to be low. I am yet to come across any Fiat Lineas in the second hand car market.
Agree with your point,

But I did see one for sale in the classified a couple of weeks back, - I think the advt, mentioned owner moving out of country.

I think it is too early to comment on the resale value of the Lineas, they are already priced so aggresively over the Honda city, verna and fiesta, that this time round the resale value loss may not be too bad this time.
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Old 6th October 2009, 17:56   #685
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Originally Posted by amtak View Post
Sir, with due respects, do you know of any Linea owner who wants to sell his/her car and at a throw away prices? just because the car is from Fiat does not mean that the resale value has to be low. I am yet to come across any Fiat Lineas in the second hand car market.
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Agree with your point,

But I did see one for sale in the classified a couple of weeks back, - I think the advt, mentioned owner moving out of country.

I think it is too early to comment on the resale value of the Lineas, they are already priced so aggresively over the Honda city, verna and fiesta, that this time round the resale value loss may not be too bad this time.
If one has to sell his Linea at this point of time, the resale may definitely be less as Linea is yet to grow on the Indian mindspace.

However, why are we still digging out this thread again? The two cars are almost 1.8L apart in prices (OTR). The sales volumes are miles apart as well. No point in debating at this point of time. Those who see value in Linea will buy Linea (in fact, most Linea owners are happy with their decisions) and those who see value in ANHC will buy ANHC. We can again debate over this after Linea 1.6 MJD or 1.4 T-jet is launched, i.e. when the price comes a bit close.

[EDIT] It just struck my mind that Jazz is a closer comparision for Linea, jazz being slightly costlier than the Linea for the same power (petrol), less features and smaller dimensions.

Last edited by opendro : 6th October 2009 at 18:13.
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Old 6th October 2009, 20:03   #686
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Originally Posted by pmbabu View Post
To match ANHC's performance, a new engine has to be plonked in and obviously that will lead to price hike
Fortunately, Fiat has not heard this before launch & hence is on right track of re-establishing itself in India.

As someone put earlier, forget increased price due to plonking in higher capacity engine, even if Fiat puts in bigger engine at the same price or even at reduced price at the cost of may be even making losses, it'll never reach ANHC sales right now. GTO is right when he mentioned brand value = trust as below
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The brand value = trust in India. Built only over long years of toiling. Fiat is on the right track right now, I hope they do things right in the longer term. Seriously, their cars deserve it. Does a brand count? You bet.
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For eg. for a new player to replace Sachin Tendulkar, he has to be at least 3 times better player and in better form than Sachin to replace him. As Sachin has built a reputation over the years and selectors simply wont drop him and aam aadmi will also adore him and forgive him if he gets out cheaply. Similarly if Fiat wants to displace Honda in ppls mind, than their product has to be better, their support has to be better and they need to be at a cheaper price point.
Expectations, Expectations & Expectations. Isn't it? Going by same example - If Gautam Gambhir who is not 3 times better player than Tendulkar was not given chance to open Innings in ODI's, would he have become such a successful player in all forms - Tests, ODIs & T-20's (has he become ICC test player of the year?). And still he is obviously not in the league of Tendulkar who got 20 years of past with him.
Point - Too much of Expectations kills

City has 2 earlier generations with 10+ years Lineage in India. For all the advises you mentioned that Fiat should do, does it happen overnight? It takes time to build all that.

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Linea's MJD has proven frugal but both the petrol and the diesel have failed to tick the hearts of car lovers or even the regular Joe who buys the car.
Do you know what targets Fiat has set themselves or are shooting in dark? Do you think Fiat would have set themselves a target of surpassing ANHC in 1st year? Before making above statement, have you visited Linea Ownership threads of those owners who also own(ed) other more powerful cars & their views on Linea's power adequecy?
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Originally Posted by EssYouWe View Post
Overpriced or under-specced. Its your call.
Guess what? Close your eyes for a moment & think. A 9-10 Lacs rupees worth premium C/ C+ segment sedan comes without Fog Lamps, a proper CD Player, ACC ? These equipments might not be important to some but to remain a "premium" car, these are like regular given equipments.

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Originally Posted by GTO View Post
I don't care about the 10% premium.
Not 10%, actually it now runs into 15%-odd, if not 20%.
Though we can either call it premium or under-specced or overprice, its entirely an individual's call.
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Obviously, the market seems to think so with Honda & Toyota's top customer loyalty rates.
The logic that ANHC is not overpriced because its segment leader seems to have a serious flaw/ disconnect somewhere. I mentioned it in other thread.

By that logic, what is SX4? with a mere 15%-odd market share, is it Overpriced? Naah. The last I heard, about all reviews (owners as well as non-owners), almost all had 1 word to say - VFM all the way.

On the other hand, if you feel Honda is not overpriced, its your personal opinion & it's respected. No doubts about it. To each his own.
 
Old 6th October 2009, 21:07   #687
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Default Fiat Linea-Petrol Emotion PK (Aug'09) & Honda City SMT(Mar'09)-My 57 point comparison

Hello

I drive both the cars mentioned above. Please find my 57 points information. How you will find it useful.
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File Type: pdf Linea_vs_Honda City_v1.pdf (32.0 KB, 728 views)
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Old 6th October 2009, 21:12   #688
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That's a nice comparo. And since your family owns both the cars, you would know the differences really well.

There is already a discussion on this so you should have posted this here: http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/indian...on-report.html (Linea vs City Comparison Report)

Mods can move this topic to the above link.

Last edited by theragingbull : 6th October 2009 at 21:17.
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Old 6th October 2009, 21:22   #689
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Great comparison. I think you have spent a lot of time in creating this. Its to the point more readable. Now Linea has dual headlamp setup, where has G3HC as simple normal setup. It would be really nice to provide the wattage of bulbs and which car has better headlamps. Linea will have upperhand but how much different is headlamp performance of both the cars ?
Linea is great car no doubt, but currently the two weakest links are dealer network and powertrains.
Ride and handling is nice in linea, but otherwise for city driving, G3HC is well ahead. Linea is not as spacious as its length suggests and the larger size + larger turning radius are sometimes quite a bit to handle.
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Old 6th October 2009, 21:33   #690
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Nice comparison. Quick and to the point. All points, which an average Indian buyer will be looking for in a car, have been aptly and amply explained. Yes, powertrain is a let down for enthusiasts, but makes up for this lack by offering decent FE.
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