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View Poll Results: What petrol C segment sedan would you buy?
Honda City 1.5 iVtec 113 55.39%
Fiat Linea 1.4 Fire 91 44.61%
Voters: 204. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 7th October 2009, 12:25   #721
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Quote:
Originally Posted by omar1310 View Post
Hello

I drive both the cars mentioned above. Please find my 57 points information. How you will find it useful.
Fantastic R&D thesis, Omar1310.
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Old 7th October 2009, 12:34   #722
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I know 3 Lineas owned by my friends which were delivered in the past 1-2 months time.

All these 3 cars doesn't have the niggling issues reported by the non-owners of Linea here.

Looks like Fiat has addressed these issues in the QC dept!
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Old 7th October 2009, 12:42   #723
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And even for the poor plastic quality.Just check the strength of those plastic door handles,even the strength of the dashboard, i never felt the plastic is of poor quality,my be the gloss is not present and less beige colour used in the Linea than the competitors.And wipers are so smart,automatic wipes will happen only pulling lever after few secs,ow you can do it manually also.Very helpful feature.
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Old 7th October 2009, 12:51   #724
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Originally Posted by pmbabu View Post
Reportedly, in sales, ANHC:Linea is ~4:1 for Sep '09. In the end, wider market acceptance determines the superiority of one car over another.
Nope. Not true in absolute terms. Apart from a car being a brilliant product, there goes so many things surrounding it to make it a success or a failure in terms of sales figures. e.g. A.S.S., Quality of Dealers, Reach of sales/ service network, Positioning, Brand/ trust etc etc. there are countless examples of brilliant cars/products not being successful for lack of either of these important things. Honda is very good in most of this & commands the respect.
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Old 7th October 2009, 13:53   #725
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Great work done Omar. thanks for the facts.
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Old 7th October 2009, 14:11   #726
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very good report. But i see that the report is not copy right protected.

MODS/ Omar,

could you kindly copy right the pdf.
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Old 7th October 2009, 14:12   #727
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thanks for taking the pains omar!
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Old 7th October 2009, 14:13   #728
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Omar
Excellent and very fair comparison. I think you have covered all the features that matter. A couple of minor features that you might want to add: foldable key and sunglasses holder. Also the anti-theft protection through rolling codes

Not many reviews talk about what you call the "worst feature" of the Honda, getting in and out of the front seats. This was one of my biggest rants about my previous NHC becuase it is something you have to face daily.
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Old 7th October 2009, 14:55   #729
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There are lots of advises for Fiat here doing rounds. Bigger engine, Better Quality plastics, Panel gaps, Fit n Finish, Niggles etc etc - cited as reasons for Linea not catching up with ANHC in terms of sales.

Guess what? Even if Fiat had given all these, at the same price points even at the cost of making losses, do you think Linea would have overtaken ANHC? Nope. Then the questions asked would have been - What about A.S.S.? What about Fiat's checkered past? People should wait for 2 years before taking the plunge - Something like these would be the advices.

No way Linea can catch up ANHC sales numbers. Its David Vs Goliath all the way.
 
Old 7th October 2009, 15:42   #730
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Default Excellent report

Omar dude, great work, its precise, unbiased and at-a-glance. Its much easier to look at something like his than to go across the entire thread to make sense out of it. Trust me you have saved lot of pains for someone who is confused on which car to buy, like I was before a few months.

Personally on the comparison, I feel that the interiors as rightly pointed out of Linea, esp the plastics are not good, but neither is tha of the ANHC. Infact one of the reasons I did not buy it was the quality and design of the interiors of ANHC. I think both cars shoud upgrade quality of the plastics even if it meas 20k more on the price tag.

The owner is sitting in the car all the time, needs to see the value there apart from external styling.
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Old 7th October 2009, 16:16   #731
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This is the most detailed, authoritative and comprehensive comparisions I have read till date. Also to note the brevity of each of the items and the way it has been presented. Kudos.

-Pratim
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Old 7th October 2009, 16:31   #732
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pmbabu View Post
I think the post started contradicting my view but ended up supporting it. Wider market acceptance will not come without all those things that you have listed
Dude - You've not understood at all & got it all wrong. What you mentioned is wider market acceptance (i.e. higher Sales) determines the superiority of one car over another as below.
Quote:
Originally Posted by pmbabu View Post
Reportedly, in sales, ANHC:Linea is ~4:1 for Sep '09. In the end, wider market acceptance determines the superiority of one car over another.
To which I disagreed & said only sales figures (higher/lower) do not determine superiority/ inferiority of one car over another. There are so many other parameters as mentioned earlier. This was discussed in the forum earlier with some examples also that some cars with lower sales numbers were/are brilliant & far superior products though than their competitor cars (higher sales).

Take it easy, friend. I praised Honda also, see below.

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Originally Posted by VahanPujari View Post
Honda is very good in most of this & commands the respect.
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Old 7th October 2009, 17:13   #733
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VahanPujari View Post
there goes so many things surrounding it to make it a success or a failure in terms of sales figures. e.g. A.S.S., Quality of Dealers, Reach of sales/ service network, Positioning, Brand/ trust etc etc. there are countless examples of brilliant cars/products not being successful for lack of either of these important things. Honda is very good in most of this & commands the respect.
Quote:
For all the advises you mentioned that Fiat should do, does it happen overnight? It takes time to build all that.
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Originally Posted by Untouchables09 View Post
Why the biggest point is avoided by most - Lack of trust in the brand. Intrigued by such debates
Good posts.

But coming back to the brand, what is stopping Fiat? Hey, look at General Motors. The press had their bankruptcy covered in blood. If anything, people were atleast as scared of GM going under, as they'd be unsure of Fiat. Yet, GM managed the entire event well and the Spark sells 4,000 cars a month! Customer confidence can be gained. Fiat has tried to accomplish the same in its recent efforts, tieups with Tata etc. etc.

Lets leave the brand aside. Car versus car, I'd choose the ANHC over the Linea petrol. If I wanted a diesel, yes, the Linea would be my pick in the C segment. However, again, when it comes to petrols, the ANHC's performance has the segment beaten. I do love quick cars, appreciate Honda's long-term reliability and hassle free ownership, and know I'll get a good price at the time of selling. Lets also leave the service quality aside : I do say this as someone who will get the same level of service from Honda or Fiat. I don't suppose I'd have any service issues in the short or long term.

The only way Fiat can solve its deficit in power is a bigger engine. But they're already running wafer-thin on the Linea. How much? A relevant recent post:

Quote:
Originally Posted by GTO View Post
Hey, the most substantial single piece of equipment in a car is the engine. The ANHC is not only the fastest in its segment, but also the most fuel efficient & technologically laden. One really doesn't get bored of a fast car. Just ask us OHC owners who are still holding on to our cars after 7 - 10 years of ownership. I find no other sedan under 10 lakh rupees that gets as wide a wide smile on my face. The outstanding reliability of our cars is another reason why we are holding on.

Ask any of us OHC owners if we regret paying the premium price? A majority will say NO. This is after owning the car for several years. Obviously, the market seems to think so with Honda & Toyota's top customer loyalty rates.



The ANHC is a pretty comfortable ride. Much more so than the SX4 & Verna, and bettered only by the Linea.



See, that's all wishful thinking. Tell you why:

1. A more powerful engine, which the Linea truly deserves, would cost more $$$. The current petrol is not up to the mark for the awesome handling + high speed cruising that she is capable of. Neither is it very fuel efficient. The diesel Linea is a much better bet for reasons outlined earlier.

2. Better quality interiors would also cost more $$$.

Now, combine the cost of pt. 1 & pt. 2, you are looking at atleast a lakh of rupees more (conservatively, reality could be even higher). The fact is, Fiat priced the Linea exceedingly well at the time of launch (read = wafer thin margins). Reason? This was their comeback car, first all new launch in years. To make up for the reputational baggage, an incentive was needed to draw customers to showrooms. They got the best looks, ride & handling, exterior dimensions etc. However, even at this price, the Linea is settling at 800 - 900 cars in less than a year of launch. How much do you think the sales will be affected if the pricing has to shoot up by a lakh? A lot actually. Except for us enthusiasts, the market couldn't care less with more power.

Need proof of the wafer-thin margins? See how the price has already been revised (as compared to the time of launch). Its a strange situation. Neither can the Linea be priced any lower, nor will the market acceptance increase at a price higher. Fiat has given the Linea its best shot, and a good one at that.

If & when they do launch a new engine, a 1.6 diesel will make far better business sense.
Quote:
The logic that ANHC is not overpriced because its segment leader seems to have a serious flaw/ disconnect somewhere.
If the market sees the ANHC has overpriced, it would have never sold the numbers it does current (read = 3 times averaged that of every competitor). Even the Innova is priced 2 lakhs more than the Xylo, an MUV that has better space, more equipment and power as well. Guess what? The Innova outsells the Xylo 2 : 1. The market has demonstrated that they do not perceive either the ANHC or the Innova as overpriced. And that they see them well worth the premium.

Also, consider this : 3 year old NHC versus 3 year old Fiesta : The NHC enjoys an average resale of 1.5 lakh rupees more. PLus, you really don't hear any Honda City owners (OHC or NHC) complaining that they paid more, do you? It's their long-term experience talking here. And guess what, they go back to buy the cars again. There is no attestation of satisfaction greater than that of a repeat customers.
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Old 7th October 2009, 17:19   #734
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Untouchables09 View Post
Fascinating? Isn't it ?
Yday, I went thro' Cruze TD thread & a great review by tsk & read about some getting used to is required for clutch. Yday itself on initial ownership report, I stumbled upon a Linea owner's thread who recently bought Linea after being disappointed in 1st TD & after making 2 subsequent TDs. Also someone posted a Linea owner's thread above. All these made me visit few Linea ownership threads.
Hi,
It was me who had 3 TDs of linea. Let me clear the air little bit on the 3 TDs. The 1st TD I had was the outer ring road. This experience gave me an idea how the car can perform or how i can handle the car on a bumper to bumper traffic. After a week, I was in the finalizing stage and before deciding I wanted to take another TD of linea. This is where the car failed my expectation. The car couldn't perform on a open road(odo around 450 kms). But the next day, the dealer sent another car which had more kms on the od0(around 8K) and on the same route this car performed well. That is when I decided to buy the car.
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Old 7th October 2009, 17:32   #735
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I thought of adding my feedback on TDing both Linea and ANHC extensively:

Linea Diesel: It took a little while more to build up speed but I had no problems in pushing to 140 KMPH effortlessly and with full confidence. This was in ORR Bangalore, between Hennur Road Junction and Nagawara Juntion. Steering was precise, accurate and very nicely weighted to my taste. Speed build up was so linear and effortless that I did not notice that I touch > 120 KMPH.

ANHC(Auto): Builds up speed very quickly from standstill. However, it took a while to go from 80 to 100 KMPH. Engine noise was more pronounced at these speeds. I did not go beyond 100 KMPH. I do not know why for sure. May be steering was too light, may be I was not confident enough, may be ride quality was not at par with Linea.
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