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View Poll Results: What petrol C segment sedan would you buy?
Honda City 1.5 iVtec 113 55.39%
Fiat Linea 1.4 Fire 91 44.61%
Voters: 204. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 7th October 2009, 17:47   #736
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Default Lovely comparison, hope more people can do this.

Lovely comparison. I was really smitten by the Linea but opted for Cedia new sports for the extra BHP. I think Fiat has a winner in India at last. The external looks are fantastic and dash/meters make you feel that you got VFM. The rear vent gives this a luxury car touch.
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Old 7th October 2009, 18:18   #737
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What works for me
1. Shift gears, engage the clutch completely, and then feather/mash the accelerator, the Linea moves.
Conversely, try accelerating with the clutch being released, and chances are it takes time to move. The above when you are at lower speeds, typical Bangalore traffic.
2. Touchwood, so far no niggles/quality issues, Linea MJD Emotion, 2months old.
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Old 7th October 2009, 18:19   #738
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Hey thanks for your positive feedback. I do not know how to copyright this. May be MODS can help.

I agree, there are some more points which I have not included. But, I tried keeping in mind the most common points which a person will look into while driving the car everyday. Foldable key is definitely a plus, but opeing the boot from that key is a point to highlight and talk about, as it extends the convinience to the user.

But then, I fully agree with everyone that, there are more to Linea. I have only done 57 points. It is true for Honda as well. There will be some more points in Honda which will be better.

I thank everyone again for your positive response.
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Old 7th October 2009, 18:20   #739
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First Off - great comparision Omar , more heart written than hand written.

"Could not be" , I thought.
" Will score a Brownie point" I thought.

Check the stats.

Linea
Overall Length 4560
Overall width - 1730
Wheelbase - 2603

Altis
Overall Length - 4540
Overall Width - 1760
Wheelbase - 2600

LINEA IS BIGGER THAN THE ALTIS in length...

For me it was a surprise , honest to goodness.
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Old 7th October 2009, 18:37   #740
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RP_812 View Post
LINEA IS BIGGER THAN THE ALTIS in length...

For me it was a surprise , honest to goodness.
Yes. My Father in law has a govt provided Altis and his security guard was telling me that Linea is bigger than Altis(He found this out when I was trying to park the car and had to do some circus before making a decent parking)
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Old 7th October 2009, 18:41   #741
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RP_812 View Post
LINEA IS BIGGER THAN THE ALTIS in length...

For me it was a surprise , honest to goodness.
Unfortunately, the longer length does not result in more space in the back seat. I have sat in the rear seat of both and I felt the Altis was a bit bigger, more airy and more comfortable.

Omar, excellent post. All potential Linea and ANHC buyers should take a look at this.
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Old 7th October 2009, 18:55   #742
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Saw ANHC half-page ad in TOI. It says..

Quote:
The race lies within

There are many who race against you. Within you.

What do you do when you are your only compatition? You surprise yourself by changing yet again.

Presenting the new Honda City 1.5V. Stunning new gloss on the exterior with new alloy wheels, All new beige interiors. Because when you've set the benchmarks, the only option is to redefine them.
In the Footer Highlighted strip, the feaures/ equipments are mentioned in following order (See the order/ sequence ! getting a drift how & where its coming from? ) -
Quote:
  1. arrow shot form design
  2. chrome handles (aha, comes 2nd in order)
  3. fog lamps (oops)
  4. 118ps i-VTEC engine (4th in order)
  5. 5 speed AT with paddle shift
  6. dual front SRS airbags
  7. ABS, EBD and Brake Assist
I did not know whether to cry or laugh after seeing/ reading this ad.

Someone mentioned in some other thread whats the big deal about chrome handles etc etc when they were not available in ANHC. The answer lies there.

What upsets me is the implicit "forceful" thought process which starts forming in a buyer's mind who is buying a 9 - 12 Lacs worth rupee car.

OT: stumbled upon a thread here in which a guy is looking to upgrade to City or Civic or a used Civic. He mentioned price difference of around 90K-100K between 2 Civic models (if I remember correctly Rs. 11.80 Lacs & Rs. 12.70 Lacs). The thought process starts changing - I do not want this, I do not want that, 90K not justified for all these, I'll settle for this/ that etc

OR manual AC is so effective -who wants ACC, Alloys what Alloys? - not an important item, Fog Lamps - can be ignored, CD Player - I'll make do with USB which is new/future technology, other small goodies - oh, very small items & so called "premium"- who wants to make a fuss about it etc etc

Hey, Hello?
a 12 Lacs rupee premium C+ segment car not having as small thing as Fog Lamps?
a 9-10 Lac rupee premium C Seg car not having ACC, a proper CD Player, Fog Lamps, Alloys? The guy who is buying 9-10-12 Lac rupee worth premium car definitely deserves such regular equipments as a given. Period.

Last edited by Untouchables09 : 7th October 2009 at 19:05.
 
Old 7th October 2009, 19:03   #743
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Excellent Comparison!
I think Linea scores more than City though i didnt counted them all.
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Old 7th October 2009, 19:03   #744
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Omar

Excellent compilation. Absolutely from an average Indian Car buyer's perspective without any expert/ guru's comments. Kudos to you.

Only 1 point where my personal opinion differs - for Steering you gave Honda the edge because of lighter movement, I guess.
Actually its other way round, IMO. Its an EPS which lacks feedback & does not "talk" to the driver. I always like HPS which gives feedback & make my car "talk" to me. Its actually a positive point for Linea.
 
Old 7th October 2009, 19:34   #745
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GTO View Post
Hey, look at General Motors. The press had their bankruptcy covered in blood. If anything, people were atleast as scared of GM going under, as they'd be unsure of Fiat. Yet, GM managed the entire event well and the Spark sells 4,000 cars a month!
Well, if you look at Spark and GP's segments each, you'll note that 4000 of Spark is roughly same market share as 1500 of GP. So, Fiat seems to be doing same as GM. Very same GM is unable to sell U-VA in half-a-decent number in premium hatchback category. In C/C+/D segment, GM is almost wiped out, where Fiat seem to be resurrecting. Having said that, I still admire the way GM has pulled out of crisis quickly.

Quote:
Car versus car, I'd choose the ANHC over the Linea petrol. If I wanted a diesel, yes, the Linea would be my pick in the C segment. However, again, when it comes to petrols, the ANHC's performance has the segment beaten. I do love quick cars, appreciate Honda's long-term reliability and hassle free ownership, and know I'll get a good price at the time of selling.
Leave out 0-100 figures and suddenly, there isn't anything so much exciting about the car, which claims to be far superior than others to demand 1.5Lakh premium. It can't beat Linea in looks, handling or ride. If City has better fit n finish, Linea is solidly built like just any other Fiat. All these are quite important but non-quantifiable factors, which do not get published on specs sheets for comparison.

Today's TOI has quarter page (Black) Linea and half page (Golden) City advertisements on the very same page, adjacent to each one. And no prizes here for guessing, which car hogs your attention more

Quote:
If the market sees the ANHC has overpriced, it would have never sold the numbers it does current (read = 3 times averaged that of every competitor). Even the Innova is priced 2 lakhs more than the Xylo, an MUV that has better space, more equipment and power as well. Guess what? The Innova outsells the Xylo 2 : 1. The market has demonstrated that they do not perceive either the ANHC or the Innova as overpriced. And that they see them well worth the premium.
To put things in perspective, outgoing City, i.e. NHC, was consistently doing numbers exceeding 4000 and at times, touching 6000 occasionally. Bring in AHNC, the sales now seem to be settling around 3000-3200 on an average within first year. As far as Pune goes, I can definitely see more Lineas compared to AHNCs (are they easier to spot?). Jazz has already bitten the dust, though it is bit too early to say. Altis has silently displaced Civic. I guess, Honda took their tag of "premium automobile manufacturer in India" bit too seriously in their pricing.

Just as brands get built over long period of time, sinking them also takes a bit of time. I don't wish and think that is even a possibility with Honda, but they need to do something about their pricing.
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Old 7th October 2009, 20:04   #746
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Excellent comparison, Omar!

It's really an eye opener when you consider the depth of the comparison. I have driven a Linea but not the ANHC, so I was quite surprised when a the Linea had many features that the ANHC didn't and I had thought it would!
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Old 7th October 2009, 20:13   #747
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Untouchables09 View Post
Hey, Hello?
a 12 Lacs rupee premium C+ segment car not having as small thing as Fog Lamps?
a 9-10 Lac rupee premium C Seg car not having ACC, a proper CD Player, Fog Lamps, Alloys? The guy who is buying 9-10-12 Lac rupee worth premium car definitely deserves such regular equipments as a given. Period.
I don't think anyone disagrees with the fact that the ANHC needs some more gizmos. However, to most, including me, the best piece of equipment that a car can have is the engine. The ANHC not only has the most powerful, but also the most fuel efficient. The market seems to think that the ANHC lacks less (in equipment) than the Linea does in other areas (performance, fit & finish, after sales quality, trust factor in the brand, resale etc.).

Last but not the least, its easier to fit alloys & fogs in an ANHC than it is to improve the performance of the Linea, or get that kind of outright reliability (ZERO niggles after 7 years in my OHC, says a lot wot?), resale value (difference of atleast 1.5+ lakhs if current trends are anything to go by), interior fit & finish or the trust factor in a brand (invaluable, don't you think?).

Your "Hey, Hello?" expression can also be extended for the Linea:

Interior fit & finish of a Tata?
Niggles of a Tata?
After-sales service of a Tata (literally!)?
A 0 - 100 that will be left for dead by a 4.5 lakh rupee hatchback?
Fuel efficiency of an SUV?
Rear seat headroom of a coupe?
Resale value of a Daewoo?

The point : Lets be reasonable here and accept each car for what it is. There's really no point in driving any car down.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RX135 View Post
Well, if you look at Spark and GP's segments each, you'll note that 4000 of Spark is roughly same market share as 1500 of GP.
RX, you & I both know that the market doesn't doubt GM / Chevy as much as they do Fiat. You'll hear a question mark around Fiat a lot more than you will on GM, an equally hit brand IMO. The market share comment is irrelevant as I am giving an example of a brand that is still shaky, yet manages to sell. The fact is, the Spark still manages to sell 4,000 cars despite the companys shaky reputation in the recent past. Read = 4,000 put their money on a GM product. Look up the 12 lakh Cruze testdrive threads. No one is worried about putting their money on a GM.

Not to forget, the Punto is down from the 1700 - 1800 launch level to 1500. Expected of a new launch (while the Chevy is selling 4000 cars after several years of introduction). Note, this is at a time when the overall segment has grown.

Quote:
Leave out 0-100 figures and suddenly, there isn't anything so much exciting about the car, which claims to be far superior than others to demand 1.5Lakh premium.
In addition to the performance, which matters a heck of a lot to us enthusiasts, the ANHC also:

- Absolute lack of niggles and stupendous long term reliability. My OHC has zero niggles compared to brand new Lineas.

- Has better after-sales than Tata-Fiat can hope to manage. Atleast in the near future.

- All-roundedness. Excels in some areas, mid-pack in some and last only in equipment. I'd rather have a 10 second 0 - 100 car than a substantially slower car with more equipment, thank you.

- Way better resale. The price differential is more than made up in the resale alone.

- Better fuel efficiency.

- Way better overall fit & finish. No messed up ergonomics either (e.g. a cramped footwell) or parts going loose within weeks of ownership/.

- Way better NVH. The ANHCs engine is far more refined, and doesn't really make the noise that the Linea's does.

- Far easier to pilot in the City.

- Trust in the brand. And why not? Honda has NOT goofed up in the last 10 years as Fiat has. I say, Fiat has gotten what it deserved to.

Take a look at this extremely objective comparo:

Quote:
- Performance : City > SX4 > Verna > Linea

- Fuel efficiency : City > SX4 > Linea > Verna

- Ride quality : Linea > City > Verna > SX4

- Handling : Linea > SX4 > City > Verna

- Interior space : City > Verna > SX4 > Linea

- Looks : Linea > City > SX4 > Verna (purely my opinion)

- Overall Fit / Finish : City > Verna > SX4 > Linea

- Features : Linea > SX4 > City > Verna

- Brand (for those whom it matters to) : City > SX4 > Verna > Linea
Quote:
It can't beat Linea in looks, handling or ride.
Looks are subjective, ride & handling entirely agreed.

Quote:
If City has better fit n finish, Linea is solidly built like just any other Fiat.
Agreed. But modern Hondas & Toyotas aren't really fragile as the OHC was. Those wafer-thin flimsy days are gone.

Quote:
All these are quite important but non-quantifiable factors, which do not get published on specs sheets for comparison.
They don't for sure. But where do the market priorities lie? Its pretty evident from the sales figures isn't it? At the end of the day, a good product is one that gives the market what it really wants.

The non-quantifiable factors of a Honda City are the exact reason that I'm still holding on, and look forward to driving, a 7 year old example. Despite not having an budgetary restrictions to upgrade. She works day in and day out with ZERO complain. And you know that I don't baby my cars, she is driven hard.

Quote:
To put things in perspective, outgoing City, i.e. NHC, was consistently doing numbers exceeding 4000 and at times, touching 6000 occasionally.
Incorrect information & perspective. Jan - Dec 2007 NHC sales : 36,855 or an average of 3,071 cars per month. Jan - Oct NHC 2008 (sales stopped this month) : 29,801 cars or 2,980 cars a month. The ONLY time the NHC went over 6,000 cars in the last 3 years was in March 2008, a feat that the ANHC matched in March 2009.

Fact is, despite a higher seller price, the ANHC has matched the NHCs success (contrary to my own predictions). This, despite having more competition too.

Quote:
As far as Pune goes, I can definitely see more Lineas compared to AHNCs
Unfortunately, the market doesn't run on how many cars we spot, and we do have access to hard numbers. For the record, I'm spotting a phenomenal number of ANHCs in Mumbai.

Quote:
Altis has silently displaced Civic.
Without doubt. But you will also understand the market situation where the Altis has a base version which is very popular with cabs / hotels, the Civic doesn't. And the Civic has a 9 lakh rupee sibling that the Altis doesn't. There is substantial product overlap between the City and the Civic.

Last edited by GTO : 7th October 2009 at 20:25.
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Old 7th October 2009, 20:25   #748
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Hey Guyz,
Just check this link out : Fiat India

Who says Fiat is not aware of its weak points in India. They are already on the way to Address that point.
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Old 7th October 2009, 20:34   #749
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Apologies boss but I disagree on many counts with your post. Will not go into all as its a pointless debate.

I hope you do not take offense to my comments GTO.

Not everyone can afford to spend the sort of money that you easily ignore in all your comparisons. Perhaps for you the deal maker is the powertrain. It is not so for everyone. Every now and then I deal with a person who wants to buy a car and gives no more than two hoots to the engine.

But what he does care about its the stuff that sounds cool like alloys and ACC. Not everyone is gonna go out and get custom fit alloys for their practically stripped ANHC.

But then the reason people do go for it is the brand image. In Delhi, its a status symbol to be riding in a Honda. As I have said earlier... Put an 'H' on a bullock cart and you can sell it for 5 lacs in Delhi.

Another point in support of what was stated by someone before, there are almost as many Lineas as ANHCs in Pune. I have seen this first hand. In Delhi you'd be hard put to spot a Linea or a Punto.

For me handling and stability is the most important thing and the Linea is more than just rewarding on that front.

As for the Chevy v/s the Fiat thing. Fiat's collapse was witnessed first hand by Indians while the GM meltdown is not affecting Indians in the least. Half the people would probably not even know.

Both cars have their pros and cons for sure. On many counts like the brand value, resale etc the ANHC would be better than the Linea.

FYI I am yet to hear of any niggles about the Linea from anyone I personally know.
Ofcourse it proves nothing.

PS: I love this thread as it presents all the facets of each car to the buyer.

Oh and one question, is the SX4 more fuel efficient than the Linea?
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Old 7th October 2009, 21:18   #750
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Untouchables09 View Post
Omar

Excellent compilation. Absolutely from an average Indian Car buyer's perspective without any expert/ guru's comments. Kudos to you.

Only 1 point where my personal opinion differs - for Steering you gave Honda the edge because of lighter movement, I guess.
Actually its other way round, IMO. Its an EPS which lacks feedback & does not "talk" to the driver. I always like HPS which gives feedback & make my car "talk" to me. Its actually a positive point for Linea.
+1 - steering wheel should not be light - same problem with i20 as well. HPS is always better than EPS.
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