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View Poll Results: What petrol C segment sedan would you buy?
Honda City 1.5 iVtec 113 55.39%
Fiat Linea 1.4 Fire 91 44.61%
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Old 8th October 2009, 11:38   #766
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Originally Posted by SkyWalker View Post
seriously, this is was a question mark ever since Vista came up. Manza is looking good, and looks like it will be an improvement in quality like Vista was over the regular Indica.
I am unable to divulge any more details at this time. However, the Manza will boast:

- The same Linea diesel engine.

- Weigh lesser than the Linea, and offer better performance.

- More spacious interiors.

- Offer excellent ride quality within the city.

- Improved fit & finish for a Tata. You can say that the interior quality will be the same as Lineas.

All this at a lower price. As stated earlier, the Linea's chief rival is actually inhouse. ANHC is in a different league. The Indigo sells 2500 - 3000 cars a month, Tata desperately wants to raise this to 4,000. Notice the lack of Indica in the branding (unlike the Vista). Its going to have some goodies too (steering mounted controls, height adjustable seats, alloy wheels, rumours of ABS from day one). Tata's going for the personal buyer with this one. Fiat has its work cut out starting next week.
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Old 8th October 2009, 11:49   #767
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Hey, I posted a post yday evening but may be something went wrong & it does not appear here. trying to recapture below whatever I can.

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Originally Posted by kodivasanth View Post
Hi,
It was me who had 3 TDs of linea.
No. It was not your thread. He was someone else, don't remember his username, this thread got me to see so many threads in last 2 days. But what I remember is that he has recently bought or booked Linea. He got disappointed in his 1st TD. He felt better in his 2nd TD & he felt absolutely great in his 3rd TD & booked Linea.

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Originally Posted by GTO View Post
Fiat has tried to accomplish the same in its recent efforts, tieups with Tata etc. etc.
Yes, and its trying hard. Lets give it some time to continue doing that. Atleast it did not run away like Peugot/ others did & even after 2 very bad failure attempts, came again 3rd time & invested thousands of crores rupees in India plant.
It seems to be on right track & seems to be doing decent numbers as compared to expectations (did we expect it in Dec'08 or Jan'09 - 1-2 months before launch of Linea?). It seems when we compare absolute numbers, it looks smaller than others hence we tend to discard it as a failure. But is it?
Quote:
Lets leave the brand aside. Car versus car, I'd choose the ANHC over the Linea petrol. If I wanted a diesel, yes, the Linea would be my pick in the C segment. However, again, when it comes to petrols, the ANHC's performance has the segment beaten. I do love quick cars, appreciate Honda's long-term reliability and hassle free ownership, and know I'll get a good price at the time of selling. Lets also leave the service quality aside : I do say this as someone who will get the same level of service from Honda or Fiat. I don't suppose I'd have any service issues in the short or long term.
Fair enough. Everybody has certain likings. Someone else might go for Linea over ANHC. Nothing wrong that the opinions differ.

You know what? The posts on this thread (& may be that ANHC ad) made me think if at all Linea should be selling at all or not. Seriously. Below is what many have listed here (I may not necassarily agree with some):
  • Fiat's absolutely horrible past - earlier Dealers, lack of network, parts not available most times & if available, then only after months. Car lying at workshop etc etc
  • Lack of trust / brand
  • Questionable engine power/ pull
  • Questionable interior quality
  • Questionable plastic quality
  • Panel gaps
  • Inability of TASS technicians - doing damage than repairing things
  • Casual/ non-professional approach by TASS
  • Fit n Finish
  • Plastic Parts falling off
  • Chrome beading falling off
  • Frequent TASS visits
When you put all these together listed in many posts here, I wonder why even a few Linea's should sell ? I mean it, seriously. Look at the above list. Why would someone risk Rs. 8 Lacs ? Its worse than risking Rs. 1.5 - 2 Lacs price difference of ANHC. But still, 1000 Lineas are being sold. There got to be something seriously much much much better in Linea than ANHC that 1000 people are risking Rs. 8 Lacs vs Rs. 1.5 - 2 Lacs (when you look at above points - Fiat’s past, Tata’s dealer network & abilities, A.S.S., Lack of trust/ Brand, Interior Quality, Plastic Quality, Panel Gaps, Engine, Fit n Finish & what not)

Quote:
If the market sees the ANHC has overpriced, it would have never sold the numbers it does current (read = 3 times averaged that of every competitor). Even the Innova is priced 2 lakhs more than the Xylo, an MUV that has better space, more equipment and power as well. Guess what? The Innova outsells the Xylo 2 : 1. The market has demonstrated that they do not perceive either the ANHC or the Innova as overpriced. And that they see them well worth the premium.
May be. But still I have a doubt that the logic that ANHC is VFM because it sells more has some disconnect somewhere (shall share a few possible reasons later) – because the logic also implies that SX4 (& may be other cars in the segment) is/are not VFM (& overpriced for the value offered).

Quote:
Also, consider this : 3 year old NHC versus 3 year old Fiesta : The NHC enjoys an average resale of 1.5 lakh rupees more. PLus, you really don't hear any Honda City owners (OHC or NHC) complaining that they paid more, do you? It's their long-term experience talking here. And guess what, they go back to buy the cars again. There is no attestation of satisfaction greater than that of a repeat customers.
May be.
I tend to agree with someone who mentioned the details in other thread with some calculations & I agree with it. If I were to buy one of these 2 cars today, I’ll buy Linea, pocket Rs. 1.75 Lacs to 2 Lacs savings, invest it wisely & do below for next 4 years:
  • Linea offers 2+2 years (total 4 years) extended warranty (80,000 or 1,00,000 kms) for Rs. 5,350/-. Would take it.
  • Have driven my relative’s Linea often & am comfortable with the power. In fact, drive after drive, as I got increasingly used to its long clutch throw/ play & short 1st & 2nd gears, my likings for the engine has substantially increased.
  • In fact, taking her on highway would bring a grin wide from ear to ear. It also means more highway drives & more chances of holidays. Aha
  • Enjoy HPS steering which gives better feedback. I like when the car “talks” to me.
  • Enjoy her stupendous Ride & Handling abilities & to throw her into corners.
  • For 4 years, would enjoy all the equipments (some are even C+ segment level, some even D segment level)
  • At the end of 4 years, when I sell it, shall we say @ Rs. 2 Lacs lower than what ANHC would fetch. By then my 4-year old earlier saving & investment would have grown to Rs. 4-4.5 Lacs. Would pocket the surplus Rs. 2 Lacs & use it to upgrade to another car may be in D segment or above.
  • Peace of Mind/ Reliability etc – I agree with many who have mentioned that most modern cars today are reliable. Yes, there could be slight differences. Well compensated by above (could not cost surplus Rs. 2 Lacs as above). Total 4 years warranty & 15,000 kms service intervals talk something.
Sorry. I’m an average Indian car buyer, very average & hence the calculations. *Shying*
 
Old 8th October 2009, 11:51   #768
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Originally Posted by GTO View Post
Tata's going for the personal buyer with this one. Fiat has its work cut out starting next week.
Given the list of goodies in Manza, what advantage will Linea have over Manza? That its a Fiat?

Its going to be very interesting. Today, many people defend Honda by saying its a Honda (and has a gem of an engine) and hence it justifies a premium tag over Linea. Tomorrow, many people will defend Fiat by saying that its a Fiat (and has best in class handling) and hence it also justifies a premium tag over Tata!!
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Old 8th October 2009, 11:54   #769
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Originally Posted by GTO View Post

- Improved fit & finish for a Tata. You can say that the interior quality will be the same as Lineas.

All this at a lower price. As stated earlier, the Linea's chief rival is actually inhouse. ANHC is in a different league. The Indigo sells 2500 - 3000 cars a month, Tata desperately wants to raise this to 4,000. Notice the lack of Indica in the branding (unlike the Vista). Its going to have some goodies too (steering mounted controls, height adjustable seats, alloy wheels, rumours of ABS from day one). Tata's going for the personal buyer with this one. Fiat has its work cut out starting next week.
We do keep the City in a league of it's own but then is it actually the case, just as you too would acknowledge that the zen estillo to Wagon R sales numbers is an object lesson in positioning and marketing and also and inking to how unpredictable the consumer mindset is, similarly though the Linea should have been a shade higer (segment wise) compared to the ANHC, the pricing, engines, brand name (FIAT), and perceived quality have kept it a segment lower. An acknowledged VFM car with numbers that just dont back it.

Yep tata too faces an image issue vs say the honda but it is definately even more associated with the VFM tag, and its manza will result in taking a bit of shine from the Linea, but then also affected would be the Icon, Accent, Fiesta Base spec, Verna, dZIRE, & SX4 segement.

Possbly the VFM association being with both Manza and Linea will draw the linea (UNFAIRLY) away from the ANHC and in the midst of the midsegment.

It is also possible that Features that the Manza would bring on board may be seen as essential in the mid segment and both Manza and Linea together may do well at the cost of the competetion.

Consumer mindset is so hard to predict.
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Old 8th October 2009, 11:58   #770
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Originally Posted by amitoj View Post
Given the list of goodies in Manza, what advantage will Linea have over Manza?
Dynamics and the gizmos (blue & me etc.). The Indian customer doesn't care about dynamics, though the gizmos will appeal to those who can stretch (for the high end version). The Manza, insiders insist, is going to shake up the C segment diesels. Expect pricing to go headon with the leader : The Dzire.
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Old 8th October 2009, 12:04   #771
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To love a CAR, you need to own it, drive it for few thousand KMs. To Hate car, you just need to TD it or read reviews in any TV or Auto Magazines.

I have now clocked 11000 KM in my ANHC - At (Bought in March 09). Last weekend i went on a long drive (Bangalore - Chennai - Mahabalipuram - Pondy - Bangalore). I covered 850 KM in 4 days and managed a milage of 16.3 (Tank to Tank basis). Fantastic milage ( that too in AT), well refined performance, wonderful ride - what more i want???

I am a VERY HAPPY - Honda Owner. It is a true VFM for me.
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Old 8th October 2009, 12:08   #772
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Originally Posted by shrinivasap View Post
To love a CAR, you need to own it, drive it for few thousand KMs. To Hate car, you just need to TD it or read reviews in any TV or Auto Magazines.

I have now clocked 11000 KM in my ANHC - At (Bought in March 09). Last weekend i went on a long drive (Bangalore - Chennai - Mahabalipuram - Pondy - Bangalore). I covered 850 KM in 4 days and managed a milage of 16.3 (Tank to Tank basis). Fantastic milage ( that too in AT), well refined performance, wonderful ride - what more i want???

I am a VERY HAPPY - Honda Owner. It is a true VFM for me.
AGREE 100%, BUT, then on the other hand possibly if you had bought the Linea and gone on the same drives with it, you could have loved it more. Actually the best person to comment would be someone who has bought both the cars.

We'll need need a telescope to get to such a guy - possibly on mars.
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Old 8th October 2009, 12:09   #773
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Originally Posted by GTO View Post
The Manza, insiders insist, is going to shake up the C segment diesels. Expect pricing to go headon with the leader : The Dzire.
That settles it for the Manza!
It will be positioned in the C segment, with the likes of Dzire, Ikon etc.

Whereas, Linea is placed in the C+ segment with ANHC, Fiesta etc.

The same apprehensions was aired when Indica Vista was launched!
But, it co-exists with G Punto and Palio (though Palio nos have come down drastically post Punto launch).

Quote:
Originally Posted by ACM View Post
Actually the best person to comment would be someone who has bought both the cars.
We'll need need a telescope to get to such a guy - possibly on mars.
No need to goto Mars!
We have a Bhpian (Omar1310) who owns both the cars, check his comparo doc in Page 46 of this thread.

Last edited by finneyp : 8th October 2009 at 12:17.
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Old 8th October 2009, 12:19   #774
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ACM- I have repeated it many times - My need was an Automatic Petrol car which is well refined and in C/C+ segment. Hence - Linea was never in my target car list. However, i did TD Linea/Verna/Fiesta before buying and my final 2 options were ANHC/Verna. I opted for ANHC.

All of them are really good cars with some pros and cons. I wouldn't ever say that ANHC is the best ever car made. All i can say is - it is a car that fullfilled my needs and i am happy with it. I am also really glad to see the way mass market accepted it too.
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Old 8th October 2009, 12:33   #775
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Default Manza and its effect on Linea

I don't think there is any doubt that the Manza will outsell the Linea. On the other hand, I think there is a great opportunity for Linea. Right now the Linea is not even on the shopping list (of the majority) of those looking at a 'C'Sedan.

Just think of the traffic that the Manza will bring into Tata Showrooms. Wouldn't some of it get diverted to the Linea? The same A**, better styling, probably better handling and some extra goodies, and lesser likelihood of the car becoming a favourite of private taxi operators.

On the other hand, the prospective buyer of a Fiat Linea is unlikely to settle for a "Tata" label.

Let us assume it is true that the Tata showroom would prefer to sell a Manza rather than a Linea. But the people coming to the showroom have come to see the Manza in the first place.

I wonder how many people who walk into a showroom to see the Grand Punto land up buying a Vista; and vice-versa.
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Old 8th October 2009, 12:39   #776
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Originally Posted by shrinivasap View Post
ACM- I have repeated it many times - My need was an Automatic Petrol car which is well refined and in C/C+ segment. Hence - Linea was never in my target car list. However, i did TD Linea/Verna/Fiesta before buying and my final 2 options were ANHC/Verna. I opted for ANHC.

All of them are really good cars with some pros and cons. I wouldn't ever say that ANHC is the best ever car made. All i can say is - it is a car that fullfilled my needs and i am happy with it. I am also really glad to see the way mass market accepted it too.
Yep, and yet, just in case you had got yourself a Linea (say it was gifted) and you did happen to use it, possibly you could have gotten down to loving it even more, inspite of a different need. (Automatic - I felt i needed an Auto when I picked up the Laura and earlier the auto cielo and yet today feel that next time round it may be a manual. - who knows - needs as we see it are actually pseudo needs most of the times.)

See I bought a Safari and am in love with it, though I have sat, driven the Scorpio, but who knows if one was gifted to me early on and I had happend to drive it for a lot of kms, who knows. (Inspite of the jumpy ride & smaller space etc.)

As objective as we try to be, usage of a specific car makes us fall in love with it. - Or of course at times hate it.
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Old 8th October 2009, 12:46   #777
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Well, i can even take Nano if some one gifts me . I never compain about the gifts i get. But when i spend some money, i buy what fullfils me MOST of my needs. And kind of driving i do with a traffic like bangalore - i can't compromise with Automatic option. That is how i ended up with ANHC - AT.
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Old 8th October 2009, 12:47   #778
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Originally Posted by Untouchables09 View Post
Guys - after how many days, my posts can get posted directly without getting thro' approval route delays? is there any specific cap?
The FAQ / Announcement section is your best friend.

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It seems when we compare absolute numbers, it looks smaller than others hence we tend to discard it as a failure. But is it?
Umm, please stop by my September sales analysis for an informed opinion on the industrys performance. No one is discarding any car as a failure.

Quote:
Fair enough. Everybody has certain likings. Someone else might go for Linea over ANHC. Nothing wrong that the opinions differ.
Quote:
You know what? The posts on this thread (& may be that ANHC ad) made me think if at all Linea should be selling at all or not. Seriously. Below is what many have listed here (I may not necassarily agree with some):
Nothing new in there. You have listed the typical apprehensions of the Indian customer. And some of them are justified, keeping Fiat's history in mind. A car forms the second largest cost center for most families (after the house). Who would NOT want to play it safe? It is absolutely justified.

Quote:
May be. But still I have a doubt that the logic that ANHC is VFM because it sells more has some disconnect somewhere (shall share a few possible reasons later) – because the logic also implies that SX4 (& may be other cars in the segment) is/are not VFM (& overpriced for the value offered).
Well, I (and the market it seems) even see a 20 lakh Fortuner as VFM. Even if you leave aside VFM in its absolute terms, I do think that the Honda City / Toyota Innova / Fortuner etc. are well worth the premium.

Evidently, the mass market seems to agree as they are the ones talking with their cheque book (and not keyboard).

Quote:
If I were to buy one of these 2 cars today, I’ll buy Linea, pocket Rs. 1.75 Lacs to 2 Lacs savings, invest it wisely & do below for next 4 years:
Opportunity cost rocks! You betcha. We can extend the same actually to any car. For example, the Dzire may well work out 5 lakhs cheaper once we bring in the opportunity costs.

Quote:
Have driven my relative’s Linea often & am comfortable with the power.
The question on hand isn't of being comfortable. Of course it does the job, even my Indigo TDi does. I spoke of my preference where I love fast cars and will choose the ANHC for its 50% better performance (acceleration times), among a host of other things.

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Peace of Mind/ Reliability etc – I agree with many who have mentioned that most modern cars today are reliable.
Most modern cars are reliable, yes. But the ones on top are the Japanese alongwith the Koreans. Indian & Italian cars have their own share of niggles. Something that many people find annoying. One aspect that I find most satisfying about my Honda City is that I send her only once a year to Linkway for scheduled jobs. Today, after 7 years of ownership, the precision in build is such that I have ZERO niggles in the car standing downstairs. It just works and works, without a single part gone loose or malfunction. Compare that to brand new Lineas which come with their own share of niggles, ill fitted parts etc.

Quote:
Sorry. I’m an average Indian car buyer, very average & hence the calculations. *Shying*
The market performance seems to demonstrate that 4 times the number of *average car buyers* choose a Honda City over the Fiat Linea.

For the record, I don't think the Linea is suited for, or even targets, the average car buyer at all!!. Its for someone who has that side to him in appreciating the high speed dynamics, gizmos, Euro build quality etc .


Quote:
Originally Posted by ACM View Post
the pricing, engines, brand name (FIAT), and perceived quality have kept it a segment lower.
Some decisive point in there, don't you think?

Quote:
but then also affected would be the Icon, Accent, Fiesta Base spec, Verna, dZIRE, & SX4 segement.
A main disadvantage / difference that is overlooked : The Manza will NOT be sold in the same showrooms as the Ikon, Accent, Fiesta and Dzire. However, the Linea will be sharing the same real estate.

Quote:
Possbly the VFM association being with both Manza and Linea will draw the linea (UNFAIRLY)
There is nothing unfair in the real world marketplace. At the end of the day, its the customers who put their money where their mouth is, thats the only thing thats fair at the end of the day.

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Consumer mindset is so hard to predict.
Totally agreed! The Estilo example, as you cited, and the other extreme is the i20! 4,000 cars in September. Man!

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Originally Posted by finneyp View Post
That settles it for the Manza!
It will be positioned in the C segment, with the likes of Dzire, Ikon etc.
Actually, it doesn't settle it and the Manza will be the biggest threat to the Linea. I can't offer more details for obvious reasons at this time (info based only on rumours, but sources are reliable). All I can say is, wait until next week.
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Old 8th October 2009, 13:13   #779
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And the smart FIAT tacticians allowed the same engine to power the manza. They sell in same showroom gets serviced by same network. Manza offering lower prize and probably more space & better finish.
Actually seems that problem is filtered to advertising dept.
Want tank like build quality and door that closes with re-assuring European thud buy Linea. Anybody to learn from SX4 and truck advt ? I would use a tank and ....
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Old 8th October 2009, 13:17   #780
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Originally Posted by GTO View Post
Actually, it doesn't settle it and the Manza will be the biggest threat to the Linea. I can't offer more details for obvious reasons at this time (info based only on rumours, but sources are reliable). All I can say is, wait until next week.
It can be a threat to the ANHC as well if the source is reliable!

The group of customers who will be looking at a purchase between the Linea/ANHC would be completely different from the set of customers who would be looking at the Dzire/Manza.

A customer with 10+ Lakh budget would obviously look at brand value for his purchase and I am sure he would be looking at the ANHC/Linea rather than look at the Tata/Maruti. I am sure this is one reason why Maruti has even struggled to show big numbers with its SX4 sales since they lack brand value when it comes to the higher C segment.
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