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View Poll Results: What petrol C segment sedan would you buy?
Honda City 1.5 iVtec 113 55.39%
Fiat Linea 1.4 Fire 91 44.61%
Voters: 204. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 8th October 2009, 13:28   #781
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Originally Posted by Ajay_J View Post
And the smart FIAT tacticians allowed the same engine to power the manza. They sell in same showroom gets serviced by same network. Manza offering lower prize and probably more space & better finish.
Tell me about it!! Related : My first suggestion to Fiat was to dump the Linea-spec diesel in the Punto. That would have not only given it more pep, but also made for an extremely viable differentiator amongst the sea of hatchbacks.

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Originally Posted by anachronix View Post
It can be a threat to the ANHC as well if the source is reliable!
Well, some cross shopping is inevitable, but this will be more the exception than the rule. For instance, when we were looking for a rough use car, we cross-shopped between the Indica and the Innova! Both at entirely different price points and vehicle categories. We have several threads on comparos between hatchbacks & sedans, SUVs & C+ segment cars.

However, the general customer segment (majority) for the ANHC is entirely different from the Manza. The ANHC customer is one who is willing to pay a premium for the H brand benefits, hassle free ownership, all roundedness, ease of driving and the petrol engine. The Manza, on the other hand, will sell majorly in diesel and to an entirely different category of customer. Think : Dzire segment + a small premium. I reiterate, the Manza is the Linea diesels biggest threat. Same engine, same showroom.

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A customer with 10+ Lakh budget would obviously look at brand value for his purchase and I am sure he would be looking at the ANHC/Linea
I think we agree that the Linea customer is one who is overlooking brand value for other benefits. It is one of Fiat's biggest disadvantages.

Last edited by GTO : 8th October 2009 at 13:29.
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Old 8th October 2009, 13:32   #782
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For the record, I don't think the Linea is suited for, or even targets, the average car buyer at all!!. Its for someone who has that side to him in appreciating the high speed dynamics, gizmos, Euro build quality etc .
That's why the Manza will not eat into Linea sales
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Old 8th October 2009, 13:39   #783
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Originally Posted by GTO View Post
Your "Hey, Hello?" expression can also be extended for the Linea:

Interior fit & finish of a Tata?
Niggles of a Tata?
After-sales service of a Tata (literally!)?
A 0 - 100 that will be left for dead by a 4.5 lakh rupee hatchback?
Fuel efficiency of an SUV?
Rear seat headroom of a coupe?
Resale value of a Daewoo?
No issues. I'm not that sensitive to cars I like/ love. You can even add a few more of these to Linea, no problem. There is already a list of 10-12 items in my earlier post compiled basis various posts here. Instead of 10-12 items, it'll become 15-20. In any case, Fiat is so used to it all.
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The point : Lets be reasonable here and accept each car for what it is. There's really no point in driving any car down.
You really love City. Its a very good car. No doubts.

I think I went by this comparison thread & mentioned it as the car as it is. Did it look offensive?
 
Old 8th October 2009, 13:48   #784
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IMO, Indigo Manza will pose threat to Dzire, Ikon and Logan, but not Fiat Linea. Already, various versions of Indigo are sold in the same show room along with Fiat Linea. Fiat Linea is in different league even though Linea and Manza share the same engines.

Last edited by J.Ravi : 8th October 2009 at 13:51.
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Old 8th October 2009, 14:17   #785
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Originally Posted by J.Ravi View Post
IMO, Indigo Manza will pose threat to Dzire, Ikon and Logan, but not Fiat Linea. Already, various versions of Indigo are sold in the same show room along with Fiat Linea. Fiat Linea is in different league even though Linea and Manza share the same engines.
Sorry but you assumed here that common buyer agrees that Linea is in different league and hence Manza would pose threat to likes of dezires and icon.Most probably Manza should be positioned to one segment up to indigo (read as close to Linea). Please dont forget that TATA motors is learning fast. See for yourself difference between indica and a vista. By that logic Manza should be a much better (premium) offering than Indigo from TATA.

TATA is much bigger brand than FIAT in India. If TATA has a good reliable product to offer, aam junta will prefer it any day over FIAT. We indians have been eating TATA namak for decades... right!
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Old 8th October 2009, 14:43   #786
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Originally Posted by GTO View Post
Well, some cross shopping is inevitable, but this will be more the exception than the rule. For instance, when we were looking for a rough use car, we cross-shopped between the Indica and the Innova! Both at entirely different price points and vehicle categories. We have several threads on comparos between hatchbacks & sedans, SUVs & C+ segment cars.
We might find them inevitably on TBHP given the option of locking down on more opinions by fellow BHPians and also the flexibility on the budget!

I am afraid, on the real market scene its a lot different. There may be hardly 5-10% of customers who would be looking at rough use between an Indica and Innova.

If the sole purpose is rough use, I am sure the average customer wouldnt go flexible on his budget but he would surely cross the limits of flexibility between Sedan/MUV/Hatch for the same budget!

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Originally Posted by GTO View Post
However, the general customer segment (majority) for the ANHC is entirely different from the Manza. The ANHC customer is one who is willing to pay a premium for the H brand benefits, hassle free ownership, all roundedness, ease of driving and the petrol engine.
I beleive its more to do with the Premium value the H brand have founded themselves with in India.

The Fiesta 1.6 sec is a stonker if you look at 'hassle free ownership, all roundedness, ease of driving and the petrol engine'.

Its not completely convincing for me to agree only this would decide on the sales of a car. I myself with the 2nd Ford ownership and my experience with Ford for over 5 years has been really good or I should say outstanding. I havent had any problems!

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Originally Posted by GTO View Post
The Manza, on the other hand, will sell majorly in diesel and to an entirely different category of customer. Think : Dzire segment + a small premium. I reiterate, the Manza is the Linea diesels biggest threat. Same engine, same showroom.
The GP was sitting next to the Vista in the same showroom!

I see quite a lot of GP threads here than the Vista thread! Not sure if that could be a deciding factor for the Manza to eat into Linea.

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Originally Posted by GTO View Post
I think we agree that the Linea customer is one who is overlooking brand value for other benefits. It is one of Fiat's biggest disadvantages.
Thats one reason most customers end with a Honda since they overlook the fact "brand value"!
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Old 8th October 2009, 14:46   #787
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Default My two Paisa worth.

I will only be repeating what is being said here but just want to make a point.

GTO seems to be leaning heavily towrds ANHC and Honda based on the fact that he has th OHC and has not had niggles , etc , etc. and also on numbers sold compared to other cars and other points which can be read in all the posts written by him.
As usual his writing style is great and if he were a cult leader , we would have all jumped off a building or believed in UFO's etc.


Here is my point of view: ANHC is a great vehicle , been in it for a few hours and driven it for a few KM. Great response , great engine , tremendous ability to be the first one out of the block , dont know about FE , but seems to be great. Overall a great car but I don't think it is VFM.


A 10+ lac car with small luxuries missing is not worth it.
Agree , it is the engine , resale value , numbers of cars , etc , but all that is more dependant on the Indian Consumer.
No Leather wrap , no CD player , no auto boot opener make a difference for me.


Even with the current build quality of a Linea , feel it a great VFM car.
The Indian Consumer has to be more informed is what I feel , I read a post here where one guy bought a FIAT Linea and his brother bought a ANHC , nobody actually knew about the Linea and were cussing him for buying it.
FIAT Means Premier Padmini for most and hence the resemblence to a Mumbai Taxi.


Honda means class and style and et.all and hence the hype.
Honda has studied the Indian Market closely and has understood that Indians have a very narrow mindset and is working off that.
For me the current set of Honda cars is NOT VFM.


They are amazing cars and can be bought by enthusiasts and guys who have enough money , but if it VFM , it is NOT the Honda.
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Old 8th October 2009, 14:48   #788
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Better close this thread. More and more rubbish talks keep coming in the thread.

[EDIT] @RP_812, though I would agree with your accusation against GTO, at this point, we have to agree to what he says because the market supports what he claims.

Last edited by opendro : 8th October 2009 at 14:52.
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Old 8th October 2009, 14:54   #789
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Originally Posted by Ajay_J View Post
Sorry but you assumed here that common buyer agrees that Linea is in different league and hence Manza would pose threat to likes of dezires and icon.Most probably Manza should be positioned to one segment up to indigo (read as close to Linea). Please dont forget that TATA motors is learning fast. See for yourself difference between indica and a vista. By that logic Manza should be a much better (premium) offering than Indigo from TATA.

TATA is much bigger brand than FIAT in India. If TATA has a good reliable product to offer, aam junta will prefer it any day over FIAT. We indians have been eating TATA namak for decades... right!
Tata Motors have equal stake in Fiat to ensure the success of Linea in India. Similarly, Fiat has taken the responsibility of sales and distribution of Euro Nano in Europe. So, both require each other for the success of their products. So, Manza will be in different segment which will not compete with Fiat, IMO.
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Old 8th October 2009, 15:00   #790
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VFM is a very subjective term. For me ANHC is true VFM - I can say that because i have it, i own it and i use it. Now it has almost completed a year in the market and selling storngly and a proven market leader in that class.

The theory of "H" badge sells is completely proven worng with Jazz BOMB. People are smart and they do some howwork before they invest 10 lac+ for a car. It is hard earned money for each one of us. Just "H" - Badge doesn't sell. ANHC is a sucess because mass market didn't find any alternative in that category which they thought would be VFM. Hence it worked.
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Old 8th October 2009, 15:00   #791
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RP 812 & Opendo

Go to a large extent with what you say, but the fact remains that just as at times it is winning that counts similarly it is sales that counts and ANHC and for that matter cars like the innova score on that count.

The other aspect is that just as even in awards functions (filmfare etc,) there are critics awards implying that the masses favourite and the biggest hit of the year need not be the best same is the case with cars.

Just because a car is a run away success does not make it better than other that may have a quarter of the sale.

But who'll explain that to the masses.
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Old 8th October 2009, 15:01   #792
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Originally Posted by opendro View Post
Better close this thread. More and more rubbish talks keep coming in the thread.

[EDIT] @RP_812, though I would agree with your accusation against GTO, at this point, we have to agree to what he says because the market supports what he claims.
Take a Chill Pill Bro , Never 'accusing' anyone of anything , it is more of an OBSERVATION like I said in my thread.
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Old 8th October 2009, 15:12   #793
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No one is accusing GTO. He is an extremely knowledgeable person and more than qualified to hold his view.

The numbers absolutely agree with what he says, but IMHO it is not because of reasons that he specifies.

This does in no way imply that his reasons are incorrect (They are infact the reasons for which a person should buy an AHNC), the Indian consumer just works on a very different set of scales.

Lets not get the Manza etc into this thread. It is ANHC v/s Linea and so it should be left.
Perhaps once the Manza is officially launched we can have a Manza v/s Linea thread too.
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Old 8th October 2009, 15:15   #794
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Originally Posted by Pragmites View Post
That's why the Manza will not eat into Linea sales
Fiat purists will buy the Linea. However, its important to realistically understand that a majority of Linea sales are in diesel. And the Manza - also riding on the same engine and diesel USP - will be a direct competitor. In engine, size, ride quality and at a lower price. The mass market couldn't care two hoots about handling, though the Linea's excellent equipment level may grab some customers.

We'll wait for the sales figures. But I surely don't think its good for the Linea to have the Manza sold right next to it!

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Originally Posted by Untouchables09 View Post
No issues. I'm not that sensitive to cars I like/ love. You can even add a few more of these to Linea, no problem.
I think you missed the point. What I was communicating is there isn't a point in burying down any of the cars being compared. If we have to, it goes both ways. I do love the Linea, especially in diesel guise, and respect the ride / handling combo that she is capable of. Lets accept each car for what she is.

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Originally Posted by anachronix View Post
I am afraid, on the real market scene its a lot different. There may be hardly 5-10% of customers who would be looking at rough use between an Indica and Innova.
Thats EXACTLY what I was communicating. Not more than 5 - 10% of customers will cross-shop between a diesel USP Manza and a petrol USP ANHC. ANHC buyers are willing to pay a premium for the car, while typical Tata buyers are willing to make many compromises for the value pricing.

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I beleive its more to do with the Premium value the H brand have founded themselves with in India.
Sure didn't work for the Jazz, did it? Further, what "premium" that the Honda brand has in India has been well earned by its products. They, and the company, have proven themselves over the last 10 years.

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The Fiesta 1.6 sec is a stonker if you look at 'hassle free ownership, all roundedness, ease of driving and the petrol engine'.
Oh yes, you can say that again. The Fiesta 1.6 (S too) is a beautiful drive. Throw in the tight handling and a 4 year warranty. However, in size, it is out of this segment now.

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The GP was sitting next to the Vista in the same showroom!
The Vista outsells the Punto for your information.

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Thats one reason most customers end with a Honda since they overlook the fact "brand value"!
On the one hand, you state its more to do with the premium value of the H brand, and now you state that H customers overlook brand value? Which one is it?

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Originally Posted by RP_812 View Post
Even with the current build quality of a Linea , feel it a great VFM car.
No one here is denying that at all.

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The Indian Consumer has to be more informed is what I feel
The Indian consumer is actually way smarter than we give him credit for. Ask any auto manufacturer, they will tell you he is amongst the most discerning in the world. And now, in this information age economy, he is better informed than ever.

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For me the current set of Honda cars is NOT VFM.
Okay, lets leave aside the VFM from our dictionary entirely. Is the Honda City worth the asking price? Is the Toyota Innova worth the asking price? Both of them have cheaper competitors, competitors of the same / bigger size and with more equipment. Still, these two vehicles are segment leaders and outsell their direct competition a couple of times over.

A couple of people, sure. But the entire mass market cannot make wrong decisions can they? I got another one for you : The ANHC costs exactly the same as the OHC Vtec did 10 years back. Ask any OHC Vtec owner, today and after 7 - 10 years of ownership, if he felt that he overpaid! I sure as hell don't! Last I checked, Shantanu and gang don't either. If anything, give credit for selling the car at the same price as they did a decade back! Ironical how the only people that think Hondas are overpriced are the ones that don't own one.

Quote:
Just because a car is a run away success does not make it better than other that may have a quarter of the sale.
ACM : Though it may not necessarily mean that the car is the best, it DOES mean that the ANHC & Innova are NOT perceived as being overpriced by the market. Anything below 10 lakhs had better be worth the asking price. It's an extremely price sensitive market, and for the Indian buyer to pay 2 lakh rupees more for the Innova over a Xylo reaffirms his faith in the product.

Last edited by GTO : 8th October 2009 at 15:20.
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Old 8th October 2009, 15:21   #795
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Originally Posted by GTO View Post

Sure didn't work for the Jazz, did it? Further, what "premium" that the Honda brand has in India has been well earned by its products. They, and the company, have proven themselves over the last 10 years.
I do not know how things are in Mumbai and my knowledge would be limited to a few cities in the north.

People in Delhi looking for a car in a particular segment will invariably go in for a Hyundai or Honda if given the choice.
People in Delhi will also buy a premium sedan over a hatch if the price lies in the same range. The latter is the over-riding factor here. The idea of a long car appeals to the average Delhi-ite.

So it does not come as a surprise when people give the Jazz a miss for its exorbitant price tag.
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