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View Poll Results: What petrol C segment sedan would you buy?
Honda City 1.5 iVtec 113 55.39%
Fiat Linea 1.4 Fire 91 44.61%
Voters: 204. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 8th October 2009, 18:02   #811
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Default Nicely written review

Hey the way this review is written i liked it and i completely agree wid it that the honda city V-tec is a bit better than the linea..............
Linea did not appeal to the audiences and thus failed to shake the influence and image of the CITY.........
 
Old 8th October 2009, 18:13   #812
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VFM cannot be generalised. Each has his own way of looking at a particular car.

I've been holding on to the OHC for 8 years now and still feel it's the most exciting Honda-City so far. I would never consider replacing it with any other city model.

Someone might feel the same about their Baleno, Palio GTX etc etc.....

So what diff does it make if the car you like isn't the best seller? If a particular car satisfies your requirements, just go ahead and buy it.

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Old 8th October 2009, 18:45   #813
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Quote:
Originally Posted by anachronix View Post
If its acceptable for ANHC, its also the same for the Linea where both are targeting the premium C segment.
You think no one will be cross-shopping between the Linea and the Manza, even though they are both sold in the same showroom, the same size, and despite the fact that the Manza has more accomodating interiors + comes from a brand which is far more trustworthy?

I can tell you this as an analyst : It's wishful thinking.

Quote:
But how does it justify the fact that the Manza would eat into the sales of the Linea which I would expect to be almost 1 - 2L over the Manza.
I sincerely hope that the Linea is not 2 lakh rupees more than the Manza because that will kill the Linea. Like I said earlier, wait and watch. Its going to be a close battle between the two. And no, there isn't going to be a 2 lakh price difference either.

Quote:
and for any premium hatch to be a hit in India needs time and maturity.
Please update yourself with the i20 sales figures. It has been a rocking success. You can't get any more of a premium hatch than the i20.

Quote:
People overlooking the fact of "badge/brand value", its more to do with driving a Honda is the feel good factor here rather than driving a VFM car when it goes to the premium C segment!
Well, I think its the product and the brand, you may think its only the feel good factor of driving a Honda. Whatever it is, it sure is working for the excellent ANHC. Maybe other brands should also work hard toward creating such an indestructible brand then, and not goof up with their customers / commitments.

And for all this talk of "premium brand" gibberish, I own a Mercedes Benz, a brand you can't get more premium than. Yet, and as I have amply stated earlier, I am not going to buy a new Mercedes for a LONG time to come. However, Honda can count me in as a return customer. Does that say a lot to you? I think it should.

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Originally Posted by finneyp View Post
Does it mean that those who bought Linea are Fiat fans or owned a Fiat before?
Please read my statement again. I have not stated that ALL Linea buyers are Fiat purists, but have posted the same as one of the reasons that someone will choose a Linea over the Manza.

Quote:
Not really, we have not yet reached that stage! Very few do a detailed study of the cars available in the market, very few check the details on the net, very few do a Test drive too.
They just go by the brand image and by what their friend or uncle suggest them to buy!
Whatever type of research they do, they still get the information they want. Fact is, according to a recent study, 1/3rd of car buyers now research on the internet. That is HUGE when you consider the low penetration rates.

Another fact : Word of mouth is something that I go by, and pretty sure most Team-BHPians do as well. Word of mouth rules, always has, and it is built on FACTS. Read = actual user experiences that build the reputation on the street. There is a reason why Maruti is what it is today.

I can't think of any truly pathetic product that sells well in India. It is glaringly evident that the Indian customer is making the right choices.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RX135 View Post
Fuel Efficiency of City and Linea are not drastically different. Linea weighs almost 120kg more, thanks to its solid build and returns approximately same FE as AHNC.
10% more kpl still right? Also, don't overlook the fact that the ANHC engine offers 20% more power, yet delivers better fuel efficiency. Generally, more power = less efficiency. The ANHC, simply put, gives you the best of both worlds.

Quote:
More importantly, Linea comes at price tag of whooping 1.5L cheaper than AHNC, which is good enough to fill in for lack of FE
The 1.5 - 2.0+ lakh resale of an ANHC will more than make up for that. Fiat petrols stink in depreciation, its a fact proven over the last 10 years with Fiat and 99% of Euro petrols which have had a diesel.

Quote:
one experiences ride and handling all the time one is inside the car.
Where do you drive more RX? On the expressway or in the City? No taking anything away from the stability and handling of the Linea at 150 kph, but how often are you going to use that?

Take me as an example : 90% of my driving is within the city, I'm pretty sure its the same for most other BHPians. That means, for 90% of the time, the ANHC is better as:

- Its got lighter controls, a smaller turning radius and better efficiency : All of which make it much easier to drive in the city and for an overwhelming majority of typical Indian car usage trends.

- And no, again, the days of the OHC waftiness at speed are long gone. The Linea may have an edge at high speed, but the ANHC is good at 140 kph too. Just because one excels doesn't make the others bad. The ANHC more than does the job on the highway. Look up the many reviews of the car which state that high speed stability as one of the most significant improvements of the ANHC.

Net net, it will be much quicker in getting from pt. A to pt. B on an open road thanks to its 50% quicker acceleration rate. Heck, the difference is 5 seconds to the 100. Lets talk of the 12 - 15 second difference in getting to 150 between the ANHC and the Linea. The petrol Linea is the slowest in its segment, and the ANHC the fastest. A fundamental fact is, the ANHC will be able to exploit its handling a lot more than a slow car with better handling. You need to really move to do that remember?

I speak for myself where I state that I enjoy driving a 10 second Honda, that sweet high-revving engine and working that slick gearbox. If I prefer this over my C220, I'm pretty sure I'll enjoy it over the Linea too.

Quote:
While AHNC is still selling in decent numbers, it has already tapered down sharply, while NHC ramped up all the time till it was selling, peaking in the end. NHC took over where OHC left (low numbers -> high) and AHNC took over from NHC, which was already selling like hot cake.
Its just done 4,000+ cars last month! The fact is that the ANHC is managing the same averaged sales as the NHC did (to my surprise too, I might admit)!! And with far greater competition. To borrow from your terminology, the ANHC is also selling like a "hot cake".

Next, bring turnover into the picture. Same sales + a more expensive product. I don't need to explain to you that the net cash coming in will be higher.

Quote:
While Linea was never expected to beat AHNC, it has achieved its purpose well. For a brand, which had hit rock bottom just an year back, suddenly has become talk of town.
I echo your thoughts here. Look up my September report for the exact comments. I'm probably the happiest at Fiats comeback due to their excellent cars.

Quote:
Comparing GM and Fiat, Fiat brand has been in shambles for long time before it started its recovery in India and worldwide, while GM has been respectable brand till economic meltdown. Both are recovering and I don't see drastic difference in the way they are recovering.
Sure, but GM / Chevy can still sell a 100 units of a 20 lakh car that Fiat can only dream about. Don't forget the Spark example that I've given you. Look up sales numbers of the Spark when the bankruptcy was plastered all over newspapers + tv shows. They hardly moved! The truth is, the general public is not as scared of buying a Chevy today as they are of Fiat.

Quote:
Originally Posted by extreme_torque View Post
No offense to you just asking, All you wanted from your 9 lakh rupee car was reliability and refinement?
Keeping all your requirements in mind Hyundai i20 fits the bill perfectly
The i20 is a hatch and he clearly wanted a sedan. In addition, he was looking for refinement, reliability, wide support network, resale and brand. All of which are very solid purchase factors. Not to mention, the ANHC AT's performance is way superior to the i20 ATs.

Quote:
Originally Posted by neoonwheels View Post
Lets give FIAT some time for Brand building (May be an year or two) as they are making a comeback.
I'm the first to give them credit for this. And have been incredibly vocal about the same too.

Quote:
Originally Posted by StarVegabond View Post
Today, Automobile Market is a Buyers Market..........
Excellent post. It is indeed a buyers market and the Indian customer, who puts his money where his mouth is, has the loudest voice!

Last edited by GTO : 8th October 2009 at 19:14.
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Old 8th October 2009, 18:49   #814
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Excellent comparison on Page 46 Post 688 by omar1310, i think it captures alot of finer points.

I dont want to get into Linea better than Honda debate, both have their plus and minus, BUT definitely the comparison PDF needs to be highlighted is what i feel. Really useful to prospective buyers and might even help remove certain misconseptions about both these cars.

To be very honest 1 or 2 points were really eye opener, egs FE of both the cars in city. I had info from one of my colleagues that ANHC was returning 10 ish even with best FE drive mode, i could confirm on this again in here. As a matter of fact almost all these C C+ segmenter's return 10-12 kmpl in our harsh real life city environment.

Thanks once again Omar.
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Old 8th October 2009, 18:57   #815
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaggu View Post
I had info from one of my colleagues that ANHC was returning 10 ish even with best FE drive mode, i could confirm on this again in here.
Jaggu, city FE is not so easy to define. On an average i get 11.x with 100% AC in Bangalore. I have hit 12.x on multiple occasions and got 10.x on one occasion. And i don't drive for efficiency, i drive it reasonably spiritedly. All are tank to tank (i see that display is usually off by 1.4 kmpl from tank to tank)

A lot depends on the time your friends drive, how congested the roads are and his driving style.
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Old 8th October 2009, 19:04   #816
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GTO View Post
The i20 is a hatch and he clearly wanted a sedan. In addition, he was looking for refinement, reliability, wide support network, resale and brand. All of which are very solid purchase factors. Not to mention, the ANHC AT's performance is way superior to the i20 ATs.
He hasnt listed performance as one of his priorities. That apart I just wanted to know the thought process that had gone into buying a sedan which is more expensive yet gets beaten fair and square by a hatch in terms of equipment, safety, A$$ (atleast the network) but only gives you an added boot. IMHO basics like climate control, alloys, CD/MP3 player in a car nearing 10 lakhs is unpardonable.
Yes the engine is the most powerful of the lot but that about it. And if such is the thought process, Swift should have been costlier than an i20 petrol but no it isnt. And again why dont we say i20 is overpriced compared to Swift?
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Old 8th October 2009, 19:05   #817
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaggu View Post
definitely the comparison PDF needs to be highlighted is what i feel.
Added to the opening post of this thread for max visibility.

Quote:
I had info from one of my colleagues that ANHC was returning 10 ish even with best FE drive mode, i could confirm on this again in here.
No doubt. But in the same identical driving conditions, the ANHC being lighter, will offer atleast 1 kpl more, won't it? Now, despite having 20% more power, yet offering the segment best fuel efficiency is surely worth of mention.

Take ACIs numbers which are tested in the same identical conditions, including traffic runs in Mumbai City:

ANHC : 10.5 City / 16.5 highway
Linea 1.4 : 9.4 City / 13.4 highway

Amongst all the mags, ACI has the most thorough testing techniques. These numbers will vary as driving conditions change, but under teh same circumstances, the % difference will be the same.

Quote:
As a matter of fact almost all these C C+ segmenter's return 10-12 kmpl in our harsh real life city environment.
Couldn't agree anymore with that. But 10 - 12 kpl by itself is a 20% wide range. All cars, with varying engine / gearing / kerb weights will never offer the exact same kpl. There will be some variance, how much ever it is.
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Old 8th October 2009, 19:19   #818
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Poll added to the thread. Team-BHPians are an informed lot, substantially more than the typical car buyer. I would like to see the choice of this community.

Quote:
Originally Posted by extreme_torque View Post
He hasnt listed performance as one of his priorities.
Still a good thing to have wot?

Quote:
That apart I just wanted to know the thought process that had gone into buying a sedan which is more expensive yet gets beaten fair and square by a hatch in terms of equipment, safety, A$$ (atleast the network) but only gives you an added boot.
If we have to apply that reasoning, then everyone should buy an i20 over a C segment sedan.

Quote:
And again why dont we say i20 is overpriced compared to Swift?
I used to think that the i20 is overpriced (look up my VERY vocal posts). Yet, have been forced to eat my words and have gladly done so.
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Old 8th October 2009, 19:33   #819
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Quote:
Originally Posted by StarVegabond View Post

But GOSPEL TRUTH is a car which is selling in high numbers (in a particular segment) is being liked by the (particular set of) customers. Some times being a Leading product, itself will bring in more customers to that product e.g. If we see more people visiting Leh, I will also try to visit there, this is herd mentality which is again a common human tendency.
Excellent post SVB.

but we as a common people are more smart than following the common human tendency. If LEH, is not worth visiting people won't go there in droves. similarly, if the car ain't no worth it, than i don't think customer will go for that car. now how will that be decided. That would be word of mouth publicity, photos, accessibility, reliability among other factors you mentioned in your post.

If the members here won't have shown/convey LEH through photos, write a review of how exciting the drive up there is, how hostile environment is, how challenging it is to adapt to high altitude then we wouldn't have known how excellent LEH is, equivalent to Heaven, i doubt anybody would go there.

Now we can say, with respect to LEH, that as many people have successfully made the trip, its safe, secure, adventurous to go there. so the other people will follow suit.

same goes for cars. People are quite intelligent to know that Honda City is a good car and thus people are buying in droves. Now Linea is like those members who have been Leh and are now showing others the way to get Linea and proving that it is worth well the effort. you see win-win situation for both.

Hope you see the analogy to this and get the drift.
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Old 8th October 2009, 19:41   #820
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GTO View Post
Poll added to the thread. Team-BHPians are an informed lot, substantially more than the typical car buyer. I would like to see the choice of this community.
Just voted for ANHC, if I ever forced to choose between the two- I hope I won't need to.

I just can't drive a car that is

1) Bigger than Corolla but has cramped interior compared to my current one.

2) Supposed to be rock steady 150Kph, but slower than a Wagon R to 100kph dash. I'd die dreaming about that 150Kph

As I mentioned I hope I won't be forced look at these two cars. But if I do, ANHC it is.
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Old 8th October 2009, 19:52   #821
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To Extreme Torque @

I didn't go for i20 because, i never considered it as it never fitted my needs. I wanted a petrol Sedan in C class with AT version. Again, i am fully aware of Hyundai products as i had a Santro earlier, driven i10 (owned by brother) and i20 (owned by sister) as well. So again, i20 is a good product but didnt fit my needs.

And ANHC milage - I easily get 16+ in Highway with 100/110 KMPH speed range and in cities it is between 10/11. Note - Mine is AT version.

ET:

To be very frank - I don't like CDs - Very much a Apple boy. Easy to cary 1000 + songs. Yes, wish Climate control could have been given but that is not my top 5 needs in a car..

Last edited by khan_sultan : 8th October 2009 at 20:06. Reason: back to back posts
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Old 8th October 2009, 19:57   #822
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Shrinivas: couldn't agree more. I am glad they threw out that antique CD player and made that space available to keep the pod safely and neatly.

ACC & Alloys are a bad miss though.
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Old 8th October 2009, 20:02   #823
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Voted for the Linea 1.4 FIRE!

I have a sweet experience with this car and it did impress me with ride/handling, space, comfort and performance!

@ WhiteKnight, do a TD of the Linea 1.4 FIRE. I easily did a 160+ on the car and it was easily chasing a Fiesta TDCi while I was on a highway touring with 4 people on board!
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Old 8th October 2009, 20:08   #824
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SkyWalker View Post
Shrinivas: couldn't agree more. I am glad they threw out that antique CD player and made that space available to keep the pod safely and neatly.

ACC & Alloys are a bad miss though.
Rightly so. Someone had to take the first step and Honda did it. It's time to transition. I think almost everyone buys a DVD player with the USB option these days 'coz it is so easy and convenient to store music/movies in a USB rather than the painful process of burning (hey, writing to it) a CD.

I have had this question for long. Where is the temparature monitor for ACC located in a car? Are they at multiple points in the interior? 'Coz, temparature will vary very much between the front and rear seats. Whatever it is, Honda should have provided this at least in V. (I noticed that even Innova has ACC *only* in the top version!)

Alloys? Hmm, if one takes a look at the "Alloys show off thread", no OEM alloy can hold a candle to those after market damn great looking ones.

Last edited by pmbabu : 8th October 2009 at 20:09.
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Old 8th October 2009, 20:21   #825
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shrinivasap View Post
To Extreme Torque @

ET:

To be very frank - I don't like CDs - Very much a Apple boy. Easy to cary 1000 + songs. Yes, wish Climate control could have been given but that is not my top 5 needs in a car..
Climate Control, remote boot opener, seat-belt height adjustment, rear ac vents were not in my top needs either. But having tasted them I will make sure they are there in every car I buy. 15-16 in the Linea on the highway seems to have been achieved by a lot of owners too.

No prizes for guessing where my vote went
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