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View Poll Results: What petrol C segment sedan would you buy?
Honda City 1.5 iVtec 113 55.39%
Fiat Linea 1.4 Fire 91 44.61%
Voters: 204. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 9th October 2009, 14:54   #886
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Originally Posted by GTO View Post
Ask any OHC / NHC owner today if they think they overpaid? The fact is, after several years of ownership, nope we don't think so. The ANHC costs
Well you would find very less guys even accepting the fact that they made a bad decision or they overpaid. OHC's must have been good in their reliability, whatever money they put on the table for the car, they have enjoyed its services fruitfully and were happy with their purchases. ANHC is also adventure-free like old siblings.
In the context of Linea, has any owner said till now that they made a mistake by saving 1.5L upfront and should have gone for something else instead of a niggle making car, arent the owners still happy with their cars.

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Yes, that accomodation comment is surely an exagerration. However, what isn't an exagerration is that my 7 year old OHC has ZERO niggles, and brand new Fiats seem to have their own share. I don't know if I'd be happy with niggles in my brand new car.
As per my knowledge the new delivered Lineas on the forum are having 0 issues compared to those chrome strips falling off and the magical seat going down itself. ANHC's had zero issues from the beginning itself.
What matters for the prospective customers is that whats the situation at present is? At present the new Lineas are as reliable and niggle free as the ANHC's were from the start. No chrom strip falling or any rattles.

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Lets accept that Fiat has priced the Linea well. Sure, they have BUT at the cost of compromise. It was their comeback car and its a fact that the Linea is currently running on wafer thin margins. The compromise? Engine + fit / finish / quality. In fact, its priced so low that Fiat has already started making revisions to the original launch price.
I say that there was no other way for FIAT to come back in India in C seg where City rules and Fiesta is selling well too in petrol segment than to keep launch rates below 7L ex showroom for 1.4 E+. The only compromise i see is on the plastics quality and the way those plastics were screwed together.

What i fail to understand is what compromise is Honda making when they sell their cars at 9L+ ? Do they give a good engine and good name and snatch away even basic things like alloys or cd player leave apart ACC. Cant we get a perfect car without compromises.
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Originally Posted by Jaggu View Post
1) linea i dont have to put down 10 lakhs, its 1-2 lakh less and that is the biggest attraction for me personally
+1,
It should be rephrased like i dont mind spending 2L more for anhc for the reliability it offers even though the equipment levels are less.

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Fiat in 2005 and in 2009 are very different when it comes to reliability, may not be AS reliable when it comes to small niggles, but nevertheless the car/brand in India is pretty reliable and customer service also has improved
As far as i tracked the Linea threads here, theres not been 1 instance where a owner has reported something to fiat and they didnt respond. It puts so much confidence in boosting brand value and assuring a new customer that the company will help you in any problem.
One member had complained to fiat and they had seny a technician with that part to his city, thats a good service.

The poll is neck to neck now
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Old 9th October 2009, 14:54   #887
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Originally Posted by AnonymousCoward View Post
When I looked around for reliability reports of a Linea, I couldn't find one. But I found something on Punto that is not very encouraging.
Source: Which
Aren't we sold the same Punto here (of 2005 launch)? Does this also possibly indicate the reliability factor of its sibling Linea?
Are they referring to the super mini Punto Mk-II, or the Grande Punto? What does the timerange 1999-2006 indicate?
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Old 9th October 2009, 15:01   #888
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Since I have not been regularly updating my ANHC ownership thread (http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/test-d...-anhc-s-9.html (Got my ANHC-S AT)) here is the brief summary:

Model: ANHC S-AT
Mileage: Around 13000 km (in 7 months)
FE: 9 kmpl in City and 13.5 kmpl on highway with AC on 100% (I may have lost 0.5 kmpl due to upgrading to wider tire)

Issues faced so far:
    • circular AC vent came off on it's own which was fixed back
    • right front wheel went out of alignment resulting in slightly tilted steering and was fixed
    • Hand brake stoped working and became alright on it's own
    • Slightly coarse engine at cold start in low revs but I am told it is normal (hadn't faced this with 4 other petrol cars I had)
    • Resonating sound which is attributed to changing to wider GT3.
3rd service costed me Rs 2500 (Engine oil, oil filter, washer)

Last edited by Guna : 9th October 2009 at 15:02.
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Old 9th October 2009, 15:06   #889
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Originally Posted by GTO View Post
There is a reason why Toyota is today the No.1 manufacturer worldwide. Closer home, Japs command about 75% of our market. With good reason too!
I am not sure how long they are going to remain No.1. They have themselves accepted it. i think there was a comment from their president in the last two weeks.

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Originally Posted by GTO View Post
Outdated technology and fuel problems? My '95 Zen was designed to run on unleaded fuel and did just as well.And somehow, that outdated technology you speak about still didnt work, did it (i.e. Opel). "Here guys, take a free bottle of anti-gumming solution and drop it in your tank with each fillup".
Which Opel engine are you talking about? They had five iterations. It cannot be two of them because we had two of them for around six years. It had definitely its pluses.

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Originally Posted by GTO View Post
However, nope, neither I or the rest of the market are making a big deal of Jap reliability. We appreciate cars that perform day in and day out without complaint.
Its widely known that the Japs are more reliable. But some people atleast (perhaps not you) might find the 'risk' of driving around an Ikon or a Punto worth the fun. Is it not their choice?

But I seriously do not think sales is a reflection on how market perceives reliability. I would have understood if its some old developed market we are speaking about. We as a free market is barely fifteen years old. Heck we still do not have half the main manufacturers in the world! If we exclude the CKD niches it becomes even less.
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Old 9th October 2009, 15:09   #890
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Guna View Post
Issues faced so far:
    • circular AC vent came off on it's own which was fixed back
    • right front wheel went out of alignment resulting in slightly tilted steering and was fixed
    • Hand brake stoped working and became alright on it's own
    • Slightly coarse engine at cold start in low revs but I am told it is normal (hadn't faced this with 4 other petrol cars I had)
    • Resonating sound which is attributed to changing to wider GT3.
3rd service costed me Rs 2500 (Engine oil, oil filter, washer)
Thats a lot of running for a petrol automatic,
Coming to the topic, thanks for being honest and stating all the issues you faced. 1st and 3rd are issues, rest it seems is normal. Am for the first time reading of anything coming off and not working for anhc here. Revelation indeed.

3rd service at 10000 kms costed you 2500 rs? What about other few services? Whats the sum total of all services done till now. Isnt 2500 for oil change and oil filter quite high assuming you didnt put in the synthetic oil?

Does it cost anything to service Linea at first interval of 3000 kms? After that its at 15000 kms, right?
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Old 9th October 2009, 18:03   #891
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Guna View Post
Since I have not been regularly updating my ANHC ownership thread (http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/test-d...-anhc-s-9.html (Got my ANHC-S AT)) here is the brief summary:

Model: ANHC S-AT
Mileage: Around 13000 km (in 7 months)
FE: 9 kmpl in City and 13.5 kmpl on highway with AC on 100% (I may have lost 0.5 kmpl due to upgrading to wider tire)

Issues faced so far:
    • circular AC vent came off on it's own which was fixed back
    • right front wheel went out of alignment resulting in slightly tilted steering and was fixed
    • Hand brake stoped working and became alright on it's own
    • Slightly coarse engine at cold start in low revs but I am told it is normal (hadn't faced this with 4 other petrol cars I had)
    • Resonating sound which is attributed to changing to wider GT3.
3rd service costed me Rs 2500 (Engine oil, oil filter, washer)
Thanks Guna for the update, i think you have a flair for noting the details and you should have a dedicated ownership thread to record experience.

AC vent coming off is really a freak incident, dont worry too much about it. Plastic parts are decent in H, such things happen inherently because of the very nature of being plastic, or a small hic up while assembling.

Handbrake is the most concerning part, i would advice you to get it checked ASAP, never compromise with brake and steering, my 2 cents. Should be something minor since its a very simple mechanism.
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Old 9th October 2009, 19:48   #892
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I am new-bee, please ignore if written anything wrong.
These threads about ANHC and LINEA are not dying and making interesting reading. Its mostly one versus others and going neck to neck.
What is the FE are for both the cars ?, can some one please put light on it, as one of my friend is claiming very high FE for his Linea and I don't believe him.
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Old 9th October 2009, 20:07   #893
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaggu View Post
Thanks Guna for the update, i think you have a flair for noting the details and you should have a dedicated ownership thread to record experience.


Handbrake is the most concerning part, i would advice you to get it checked ASAP, never compromise with brake and steering, my 2 cents. Should be something minor since its a very simple mechanism.
@Jaggu, I do have a ownership thread
(http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/test-d...-anhc-s-9.html (Got my ANHC-S AT) (Got my ANHC-S AT))
They have checked the handbarke during service and it seem to be alright now.

Last edited by Guna : 9th October 2009 at 20:08.
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Old 9th October 2009, 20:13   #894
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Raj2402 View Post
Well you would find very less guys even accepting the fact that they made a bad decision or they overpaid. OHC's must have been good in their reliability, whatever money they put on the table for the car, they have enjoyed its services fruitfully and were happy with their purchases. ANHC is also adventure-free like old siblings.
In the context of Linea, has any owner said till now that they made a mistake by saving 1.5L upfront and should have gone for something else instead of a niggle making car, arent the owners still happy with their cars.



As per my knowledge the new delivered Lineas on the forum are having 0 issues compared to those chrome strips falling off and the magical seat going down itself. ANHC's had zero issues from the beginning itself.
What matters for the prospective customers is that whats the situation at present is? At present the new Lineas are as reliable and niggle free as the ANHC's were from the start. No chrom strip falling or any rattles.
Raj, totally agreed with the above. But the sad fact remains that majority of the prospective buyers do not bother to collect first hand information. Once they decide to buy a car, they ask their colleagues how the car is, who in turn may or may not have any first hand knowledge about cars other than hear say.

Here is an example of how the opinion is formed by word of mouth. One guy buys a car of say brand 'X' and finds its service to be mediocre. He spreads the info through word of mouth to his 10 other colleagues, 10 relatives etc who passes on the information to others. At a later stage even if the problem is fixed, the above mentioned people won't have the knowledge of this since they are not in touch with the service guys and hence have a negative opinion on this and it becomes attached to the brand X. And the sad thing is that once an opinion is formed, it remains etched in their minds and they spread it to others as well without checking the present scenario.

When I said to my colleague that Linea has bigger dimensions than a Civic, he flatly refused to accept it even after I offered to show him a comparison of the dimensions . He sounded like 'come on man how can Fiat make a car which is bigger than a HONDA and that too at a hugely discounted price. Fiat always <<< than HONDA'. And the person neither owns a Honda nor a Fiat, but still he thinks so positively about Honda that a mere comparison of the dimensions made him incensed .

Guys, this example was sited merely to show the impact word of mouth opinions can have on a person. Honda owners don't take any offense please. Peace out.
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Old 9th October 2009, 21:30   #895
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I voted for the Honda City. Firstly I have to say that I've been a satisfied owner of the OHC 1.5exi and current owner of a Civic.
Did'nt spend a penny on mech/elec repairs for 7 years other than wear items like brakes, battery, service, dings etc. Biggest expense was repairing dings and scrapes. Got a superb resale of 3.25 L with clunking shocks.

As an enthuiast the engine and performance is to die for and handling and touring ability is so-so.
Linea is a great effort by FIAT and I praise them. But underpowered engine is a no-no for me. At the end of the day, its not that much cheaper either.

Give me a 1.6 or 1.9 MJD and they have my vote. Even fit and finish be dammed. At the end of the day its more fun to drive a powerful car with a average chassis rather than a underpowerd car with great chassis which can be frustrating.

Not saying that the currnet City is a perfect car. It also has some short comings but only when you have owned one for 7 years you realise the worth of the l'il extra that you pay for it.
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Old 9th October 2009, 23:21   #896
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To be frank, I have not driven either of the two yet. Neither have I gone through the almost 900 (!!!!) posts in this thread. I'm sure both sides have great arguments. I am only stating reasons for my choice.

I vote for the ANHC. Reasons:
* The ANHC has enough kit for me. Though the climate control is quite conspicuous by it's absence. Even though the Linea is loaded to the gills with the Emotion pack, for almost 2 lakhs lesser.

* I am an engine-vengine type of guy. The i-VTEC mill does it for me. It makes more power and is substantially torquier. I am only comparing petrols. It would be a whole different ball game if the 1.6 or the 1.9MJD was on offer.

* I see a lot more Hondas running around, than FIATs. I know it's the sort of statement that has the inherent ability to start a flame war. However, for all the limited vfm Hondas seem to be giving, an awful lot of people seem to be buying them for all the wrong reasons. That means more people have had the confidence to plonk their extra cash somewhere meaningful. Just last week, I had the opportunity to ride shotgun in a 1998 1.5 EXi, run 1,66,xxx kms with only the usual maintenance expenses. No major part failures, and has a smooth strong idle even at this vintage. Not to say, that Lineas won't last that long, but there are simply not enough around yet to extrapolate my opinion.

* The ANHC V spec is almost 2 lakhs more expensive, but it is something I expect to recover in fuel economy costs, maintenance and resale value. I just heard of somebody's 98 Type 1 OHC being sold for 1.65 lakhs!!!! Time and again Honda owners have proved that even their official Honda service bills are really low. Often Accord bills turn out to be lower than my Swift. I like to keep my cars for long, which is why I change oils before recommended schedules, etc. Over a period of 6-7 years, an extra 2 lakh rupees doesn't seem to hit as hard.

* I like the ANHC front better than the Lineas. I like the Lineas rear better. So it's entirely subjective.

I must say, the Linea does really offer a lot of kit.
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Old 10th October 2009, 00:35   #897
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One interesting observation, does the badge City which has stood the test of time and has been retained, has anything to do? Against Linea, which will be associated with Fiat name first, in Indian context?
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Old 10th October 2009, 11:22   #898
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Originally Posted by Raj2402 View Post
Well you would find very less guys even accepting the fact that they made a bad decision
Quite right!! It is also a human tendency to look for affirmation and support when one is not sure about himself.

Just have a look at the Initial ownership thread to get an idea who needs it the most.

After a match, winners go home and celebrate, it is up to the losers to do press conference and explain how biased the referee was, how the rules were unfair, how the market is not mature, how stupid Indian customers are etc.

Be happy about your decision, if you are not happy, do correct it. But please stop blaming others
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Old 10th October 2009, 11:43   #899
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Originally Posted by Jaggu View Post
One interesting observation, does the badge City which has stood the test of time and has been retained, has anything to do? Against Linea, which will be associated with Fiat name first, in Indian context?
Of course YES! The "City" badge has earned its reputation thanks to 3,50,000 Honda Citys (approx total of 10 years) on our roads today. Its only because OHC, NHC and ANHC owners are satisfied that the badge has become what it is today.

If Fiats name is bruised, thats because they have messed up in the last 10 years. Fiat is pushing all the right buttons since their 2008 comeback and I hope they continue to do so in the years to come. Think about it, if the Siena / Petra had been managed the same way that the City was, today's Linea could well have been called a Siena.

There's a reason why brands names like the Accord, Camry, Civic, Corolla, E Class, 5 series, Landcruiser etc. etc. (Octavia too) are carried on from generation to generation. Its because the previous variant has gathered a phenomenal amount of goodwill and (hopefully) the new gen lives up to it.

As consumers, we should hope that every product proves its worth and is able to build such an indomitable reputation & goodwill around the brand.


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Originally Posted by shankar.balan View Post
3. Camry somehow is uninspiring
Still a great luxury car. Too bad Toyota imports it as a CBU and thus, the price is in stratospheric areas.

Quote:
5. Ref Altis - your comment about pricing - is it a positive or a negative comment? I didnt catch your drift and would like to get your view because in my own opinion it is a rather overpriced car.
I think the Altis is fantastically priced. The base version is rather cheap and appeals to taxis, hotels etc. The more equipped variants are cheaper than its Civic counterparts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Raj2402 View Post
OHC's must have been good in their reliability, whatever money they put on the table for the car, they have enjoyed its services fruitfully and were happy with their purchases. ANHC is also adventure-free like old siblings.
In line with Jaggus comment, I'd say.

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As per my knowledge the new delivered Lineas on the forum are having 0 issues compared to those chrome strips falling off and the magical seat going down itself.
That makes me VERY happy to hear. All the brands follow our forum closely and take feedback wherever relevant.

Quote:
I say that there was no other way for FIAT to come back in India in C seg where City rules and Fiesta is selling well too in petrol segment than to keep launch rates below 7L ex showroom for 1.4 E+. The only compromise i see is on the plastics quality and the way those plastics were screwed together.
Correct. But in the long run, for a company to stay profitable, the Lineas current prices are not sustainable. Well, lets leave the business discussion to the September sales analysis thread.

Quote:
What i fail to understand is what compromise is Honda making when they sell their cars at 9L+ ? Do they give a good engine and good name and snatch away even basic things like alloys or cd player leave apart ACC. Cant we get a perfect car without compromises.
The concept of a "perfect car" is an illusion. I even have a problem with cars that cost 80 lakh rupees. For example, the S Class and its reliability issues. Or the 7 series (though a car I love to death) which has a surprisingly and relatively unluxurious ride (compared to the S).

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Originally Posted by Trapezio View Post
I am not sure how long they are going to remain No.1. They have themselves accepted it. i think there was a comment from their president in the last two weeks.
Typical Japanese modesty here. Toyota has hardly been proud of its achievement publicly.

Quote:
Which Opel engine are you talking about? They had five iterations. It cannot be two of them because we had two of them for around six years. It had definitely its pluses.
Opel showrooms in Mumbai made System G (a fuel additive) pretty much mandatory for all Astras. Even on Team-BHP, members from other cities have reported the same.

Quote:
Its widely known that the Japs are more reliable. But some people atleast (perhaps not you) might find the 'risk' of driving around an Ikon or a Punto worth the fun. Is it not their choice?
Absolutely is. It is a buyers market today and there is a car for everyone. Compare the sheer choice to only 10 years back. BTW, I did help my brother buy an Ikon as it suited his needs the best. The same way I would myself buy a Linea diesel if I were in that segment for a diesel car.
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Old 10th October 2009, 11:44   #900
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Originally Posted by UKR View Post
Guys, this example was sited merely to show the impact word of mouth opinions can have on a person.
Till now, everyone i told to that am planning to buy a Fiat Linea or City, they upped their nose and said in disgust "FIAT"? I said why, they said you must be mad enough to play with your money, this the reputation which fiat has in north india. To remove this, fiat has a lot of hardwork to do now.
These guys dont impact my decision, i have friends here who can help me out for sure.
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Originally Posted by WhiteKnight View Post
Quite right!! It is also a human tendency to look for affirmation and support when one is not sure about himself.
I didnt quite understand the context or the way you were talking in?
I mean for a prospective buyer in a C seg, theres a whole lot of options from a Fiesta-city-verna-Linea etc. Theres always a element of doubt and thats why theres a section for "what car". For a middle class man, when he is spending 7-8L on a car, he tries to get as much assurity as possible and theres nothing wrong in it.

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Just have a look at the Initial ownership thread to get an idea who needs it the most.
CARE TO EXPLAIN THIS. .

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Be happy about your decision, if you are not happy, do correct it. But please stop blaming others
Huh, man am yet to take a decision. Still trying to be sure where i will plonk my money in. Blaming others- may i know how? On my comment that noone accepts he made a bad decision after spending a good 7-8L, if you think its blaming then
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