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View Poll Results: What petrol C segment sedan would you buy?
Honda City 1.5 iVtec 113 55.39%
Fiat Linea 1.4 Fire 91 44.61%
Voters: 204. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 10th October 2009, 17:37   #916
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Originally Posted by GTO View Post
If Fiats name is bruised, thats because they have messed up in the last 10 years. Fiat is pushing all the right buttons since their 2008 comeback and I hope they continue to do so in the years to come. Today's Linea could well have been called a Siena.
Quite right i think. They messed up and badly messed up. As they say, fixing back an uprooted tree is next to impossible. Fiat also ruined their reputation, if there wasnt any JV with TASS for after sales service then very few people would have bought it. Now Linea has an added advantage of a large service network if things go wrong.

Santro- Santro xing, Zen-Zen estilo- City-City, companies hardly ever change names of their successful models.

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That makes me VERY happy to hear. All the brands follow our forum closely and take feedback wherever relevant.
More than the forum, its the feedback mail from initial owners that has helped fiat improve quality to an extent i think. The mails that some members sent to fiat regarding niggles were like fire. It gives a good feeling that the 25-30k price increase hasnt gone waste, they improved the QC and plastics as per i asked from new owners. Good thing- whoever spends 7.5L for a sedan doesnt mind 20-25k for good plastics and a trouble free car.

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Correct. But in the long run, for a company to stay profitable, the Lineas current prices are not sustainable.
+1, seems so. It seems that even the rate hike was done to improve quality. But GTO, Linea would have to maintain a big diff in pricing if it has to compete against City.
If i had bought in April like my friend, would have costed just 7.5L OTR for E+, now same car costs around 7.85L OTR. He isnt facing any issues apart from once falled chrome.

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The concept of a "perfect car" is an illusion. I even have a problem with cars that cost 80 lakh rupees. For example, the S Class and its reliability issues. Or the 7 series (though a car I love to death) which has a surprisingly and relatively unluxurious ride (compared to the S).
S class is for back ride, chauffeur driven and BMW for a pure drivers experience and thrill.
I rephrase my sentence as the "Best package acc to ones needs" not the Perfect car as some will find fault in even Panamera at 2.5 crores.
Will it remain same forever, Excellent ride, features but a small engine or excellent engine but harsher ride and no features.
But then when a man who spends 60-70L for a S or Bmw cant get everything in 1 car how can i get when am spending 10% of it

Quote:
Originally Posted by Untouchables99
As mentioned earlier, I clearly see a disconnect in the logic that XYZ car is better or a VFM (in generalised absolute terms) because it sells more.
See for anhc, more then Honda tag its the CITY tag which matters. Its an added advantage for the city. Atleast i am not in ones who will buy 1 car out of 3 which is a bestseller. Its the same way as"Hey, why cant i have a HTC even if Nokia selles more". Isnt neccesary that what half of India likes you should like too. There are hell lot of factors involved in choosing a car, my requirments may not match with 500 others.

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Originally Posted by Sn1p3r
Secondly, I doubt how long the car will last in the hands of TASS. I went with a friend to see his Linea getting serviced at TASS (I used to go there for my Indica). Those guys were having a ball with the car, all enjoying the plush back seats for the midday snooze, few tea cups perched on the roof (maybe testing the slip angle.
Thats highly subjective, you need to have good relations at the ASC with higher people to see your car isnt abused. It can happen with any mfr- Maruti, Honda, Fiat, still i say TASS guys are much better than Mahindra's. I red handedly caught my Scorpio going out for dropping people on a bus stop, when inquired he said "TD le raha tha saar".

I went with my friend to a TASS for getting a gone chrome strip and the way he was treated was just much better than expectations. Customer lounge to SA's all were so helpful. Its very imp to find a good service centre these days whatever BRAND your car is if you dont want your car to get screwed.
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Old 10th October 2009, 19:13   #917
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Originally Posted by nandans2005 View Post
In my opinion & from the cars i have had, the real maintenance cost show up after about 4 years of good usage
Truly. Only two scenarios after 4 / 5 years:

1. Either the owner sells the car. A popular car will get more resale.

2. He keeps it and enjoys the durability. There are ample experiences of Hondas & Toyotas on the forum who have held on to their cars for 7 - 10 years and still enjoy excellent reliability. My OHC experience has been well covered, just today I saw an update on a Qualis thread that has done 1.45 lakh kms and is still running strong. Its sheer durability.

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Originally Posted by Raj2402 View Post
Quite right i think. They messed up and badly messed up. As they say, fixing back an uprooted tree is next to impossible. Fiat also ruined their reputation, if there wasnt any JV with TASS for after sales service then very few people would have bought it.
1. In my books, their tie-up with Tata was the smartest thing they did. Many Fiat dealers gave up the franchise (lack of sales) and no one was ready to invest 15 crores in a new dealership for Fiat. With Tata, they got a ready network + we Indians do place "trust" in the "Tata" group.

2. Fiat is trying VERY hard and is pressing all the right buttons. They have to continue doing so for the next 5 - 10 years to enjoy the fruits of having a solid brand.

3. It is very much possible to resurrect a damaged brand. Look how GM managed all the bankruptcy news. No one is scared to even buy a 13 lakh Cruze or a 20 lakh Captiva.

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+1, seems so. It seems that even the rate hike was done to improve quality. But GTO, Linea would have to maintain a big diff in pricing if it has to compete against City.
As things stand today, yes, they have to. Not only to compete against the City, but against all other cars in the segment. Maruti & Hyundai are extremely formidable competition. Rumours insist that Toyota will be launching their 8 lakh rupee sedan in the future. And then, you have the Manza standing right next to it in the showroom! Same engine, roomier interiors, great ride quality.

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S class is for back ride, chauffeur driven and BMW for a pure drivers experience and thrill.
Well, the 7 is a great drive, but it isn't really a "drivers" car nor gives you the BMW handling experience like a 3 / 5 series would. Great drive no doubt, but the S by itself has handling / grip levels that only 1% of even us enthusiasts are capable of exploiting.

Now add to that the fact that 99% of the 7 series out there are self-driven!

Quote:
I rephrase my sentence as the "Best package acc to ones needs"
Ah, aptly phrased.

Quote:
Thats highly subjective, you need to have good relations at the ASC with higher people to see your car isnt abused. It can happen with any mfr- Maruti, Honda, Fiat, still i say TASS guys
When you look at the averages, your chances of getting better service at a Maruti / Toyota are better than at Tata-Fiat. We are talking averages across the country, of median customer satisfaction levels across hundreds of service stations.

But yet, at the end of the day, you only need one service station. As long as you find one close to your place, no one will be complaining.

Quote:
are much better than Mahindra's. I red handedly caught my Scorpio going out for dropping people on a bus stop
Again, going by the averages, your chances of finding outstanding Mahindra service are low. So for most people, its a downer. However, for me, I have great relations with Milestone (Mahindra Workshop) and have been going there since a decade. A trip to Milestone is looked forward to, I know everyone there. They even pick up and drop off my Jeep and make sure EVERYTHING on the to-do list is completed well in time. After sales is the last thing on my mind if I want to buy say a Scorpio. Actually, it would be an added benefit!
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Old 10th October 2009, 20:16   #918
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Originally Posted by GTO View Post
1. In my books, their tie-up with Tata was the smartest thing they did. Many Fiat dealers gave up the franchise (lack of sales) and no one was ready to invest 15 crores in a new dealership for Fiat. With Tata, they got a ready network + we Indians do place "trust" in the "Tata" group.

2. Fiat is trying VERY hard and is pressing all the right buttons. They have to continue doing so for the next 5 - 10 years to enjoy the fruits of having a solid brand.

3. It is very much possible to resurrect a damaged brand. Look how GM managed all the bankruptcy news. No one is scared to even buy a 13 lakh Cruze or a 20 lakh Captiva.

As things stand today, yes, they have to. Not only to compete against the City, but against all other cars in the segment. Maruti & Hyundai are extremely formidable competition. Rumours insist that Toyota will be launching their 8 lakh rupee sedan in the future. And then, you have the Manza standing right next to it in the showroom! Same engine, roomier interiors, great ride quality.
Well said GTO + 1 to you.

As we see there are three phases in a engagement between a Customer and a Brand/Supplier

1. Pre-purchase Phase

This is a phase when prospective customer (of today) is looking for suitable product or service to fulfill his expectations, needs, wants. Generally everyone tries to gather as much information to make a decision including Primary First hand information viz. visit to dealer showrooms, looking at products, test drives, asking questions, getting costs, finaning options etc. They also look for secondary information like internet search, special interest forums, asking the relatives, friends, neighbours, colleagues, bosses and others in the social/business/professional network.
the consultation would include the car brands, particular product, particular dealer, cost of ownership, after sales experience etc. This would be used to shortlist the options.

2. Purchase Phase

this is when the actual purchasing is done. negotiations, booking the car, arranging finances, pre-delivery inspection, actual delivery etc etc

3. Post purchase Phase

this is when real differences between good (Companies, Brands, Products) and not so good one emerge. The actual design, performace issues will star to emerge, not so good ones will actually have these in addition to the issues in delivering the post purchase experience delivery process.

Coming back to FIAT, it has done very well in Good Value Propositions to the prospective customers (pre-sales phase) viz. Products (Linea, Punto), Promotion (TV, News Paper,internet Advertisements), Place (Tie up with Tatas for Sales, Distribution, Service, more the better), Positioning (Fuel efficient, leading features, equipment, great looks) and most importantly Price (including discounts, financing options etc).

Actual Purchase experience needs to be improved. for example, there is conflict between a Tata product Vs FIAT product especially considering new products Tata is planning to introduce, Differentiating the expereince delivery to a Tata customer Vs a FIAT customer, Delivering the Higher end image to FIAT positioning experience to the cstomer in real sense rather than treating him like a regular Nano/Indica/truck/bus customer etc, etc

Post Purchase Experience is the real area of work for FIAT (& Tata as well) viz. how the cars and customers are treated ay the service stations to how the number of service stations to be increased, improving the competence of the service personnel, localization of parts and making them available as and when needed within short notice to actually implimenting the service experience delivery to the cusotmer.

There is a saying " once a product is sold, it should stay sold", if it comes back for any reason, the margins would be eroded and future sales would affected. Most importantly customer should be cared thoughout the 360 degree of the ownership period consistantly year after year. Then the FIAT image would change, more owners would give positive feedback to prospective buyers and suddently the Brand becomes a happening brand.

I sincerely hope FIAT does not mess up again. Certainly it is on the climb, only time will tell where it will reach.
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Old 11th October 2009, 03:10   #919
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Originally Posted by StarVegabond View Post
Yes, you are right, Best Sellers deserve to be priced higher. I as a consumer do not mind paying a premium (if reasonable) to be seen with the best seller. It is not just with cars, but also with the others like Best address Homes, iPhone or HTC phones (for Phones), LCD TVs, eating in a premium restuarant, travelling on a particular airline (e.g. Kingfisher or Singapore airline) etc etc.
Good post, StarVegabond

In addition to my experience shared earlier, lemme add further

I prefer/ use only certain top brands for clothes. For shoes also, I prefer 1 certain brand (one of the top most) that too with a specific technology soles. For food, I go to top restaurants but at the same time I prefer paani puri or bhelpuri at roadside vendor (not even at a good or even average restaurant) which I do more often than going to top restaurants.

For shoes, I’m using that brand & that specific tech sole since last 7 years now (4 pairs used). In between I tried to look for some even better brands, bought 1 pair only to discard it after 3 months.

For computers, I use an IBM office Laptop Which is well past its expiry due date. Am not replacing it as the new lots which are coming are of other brands & I do not want to surrender this IBM one. Whereas for Desktop, I’m still using a 2001 “Assembled’ desktop. Being Electronics Engineer & being extremely fond of new tech items coming, I’ve upgraded many latest things but still it is an assembled Desktop dibba.

Point is – my preferences vary, while I’m extremely brand conscious for certain things for specific reasons, for other certain things I’m not (for equally specific reasons).

When I bought Ford Ikon in 2003, all usual influencers (family/ elders/ friends) were against it for A.S.S., maintenance costs, Resale etc & pushing for Esteem/ Accent. The only point was - I liked driving Ikon. That’s it.
A few years later when I drove my Brother-In-Law's VTEC (not OHC) for the 1st time & pulled it out of parking, I felt wow for the light steering. Only when I drove it substantially (we go together on holiday trips/ rides often) that I realized that no, I don’t like it. I thought it was typical my preference of not liking VTEC steering which must be better coming from Honda/City.

Only much much later after I came to know that what I “liked” in driving Ikon is called Ride & Handling, Maneuvering abilities, HPS steering feedback etc.

I did not find anything special in driving VTEC & also ANHC which I expected from it being premium car over others.

Concern on Reliability/ Peace of Mind/ Brand / Badge etc – On this, my views were already expressed earlier in several threads,

I found much criticized Ford service to be extremely good & reliable. Once I leave car at Ford A.S.S., I did not have to worry about any problems unattended or even a forthcoming issue unattended. In 5.5.years my humble Ikon ran 90,000 kms without any troubles. She just ran & ran & got abused. She got driven on kaccha roads of Guarat laid with stone chips extensively. Not any part changed, replaced. And I believe most cars today are reliable. Jaggu has mentioned many cars in the other thread & I completely agree with him. % defects over 10,000 cars or 1,00,000 cars & the resultant differential increase of risk comes very very small.

Coming to Linea, with 10,000 kms on ODO approaching, my service bill (all charges/bills inclusive except for accidental insurance) cost is NIL (Rs. 75/- to be precise).

Cost of spares & Repair cost: I’ve always found my colleagues, friends, almost everyone who owns a City cribbing over Spares cost & repair cost. I found them cursing at the time of either smaller usual incidents of ORVM / bumper/fender or bigger incidents of accidental repairs. At the time of my buying decision, I reviewed the extensive spare part cost comparison & ANHC spares are the costliest amongst ANHC/Linea/SX4/ Verna/ Fiesta. Its only on such threads of TBHP that I heard that City’s Spares cost & repair cost is lower.

FE – I agree with Jaggu that most C- seg cars returns similar FE of 10-11-12 kmpl. One can only say FE figure of a specific 10 or 10.5 or 11, only if he has calculated total litres consumed on total ODO reading over the age of the car till that day, the way if I remember kpzen (or someone else?) mentioned in his thread with a detailed excel sheet. Else Some tankful give 10.5, some tankful give 12, some tankful give 10, some thankful give 11.5- depending upon driving conditions.

Issue on Resale Value – Again I mentioned detailed calculations on Opportunity costs in other thread which someone recaptured in this thread. Rs. 2 Lacs saved, invested, maturity after 4 years – almost Rs. 4 – 4.5 Lacs. Even if the Car fetches Rs. 1.5-2 lacs less in resale, the concern on Resale value is more than made up for with Rs. 2-2.5 Lacs surplus remaining in pocket.

On Engine power in Linea, it took me some time to get used to combo of long play clutch/1st-2nd short gears. After that there is no looking back. Without any trace of arrogance, I can say that I leave powerful cars behind while starting from traffic signals in 99% cases (and I’m no rash driver) (Doesn’t mean it’s the fastest but she fulfils my requirement of live / fast driving). Its documented in my ownership report – criticism first & then realisation. Few posts from my ownership report are as below:

10 days after delivery
Quote:
1st/ 2nd Gears - Very short. still reserve comments till I do 1000 km & get used to synchronisation of Fiat's long ply clutch/ Brake/ Accelerator. Sometimes car zooms past in 1st & 2nd gear while some times its dead
Seat
20 days after delivery
Quote:
For 1st & 2nd Gears, I realised that with my earlier car, while changing gears I'm used to release clutch & pressing accelerator suddenly instead of gradually. In Linea, doing this makes car losing the power & feels dead starting in next gear. When I gradually release the clutch & simultaneously gradually press accelerator, the power-loss issue is almost not there. will come back with further observation when I get my car back from service station
1 month after delivery
Quote:
I would be wrong if I say it does not lack Power. It lacks power & this statement is not on absolute terms but on comparative terms.

I was using Ford Ikon 1.3L nxt earlier. Compared to even that car, I feel les power in Linea & Ikon 1.3L was not considered a real "powerful" car, right? In Linea, I do not feel Lack of power when I'm cruising at Higher Speed / Higher RPMs. It is felt - 1) at pick up from 1st/ 2nd gear & 2) when you are going in 4th/ 5th gear & the speed is lowered (not as low as to warrant shifting gear down to lower gear) & then again she has to pick up.

Point 2 above, in defence to Linea, I still feel my perception/ experience may get changed after some time as its possible that I may not be lowering the gear at right speed/time, probably I'll have to get used to lowering the gear at higher speed than what I'm anticipating right now.

In Mumbai traffic, there is a fight for every inch & my Ikon was not allowing any other car to raise its nose ahead from side-lane to enter into the lane I'm driving & to come ahead of my Ikon. With Linea, I've seen that happening a number times. By the time I accelerate & gain momentum, the side-lane guy leaves his lane & enters my lane as there is a gap & there is that fraction of a second time he has. Here again, in defence to Linea, it might be entirely possible that I'm driving her carefully/ cautiously than what I was driving Ikon.
Almost 2 months after delivery
Quote:
The car has grown on me. It seems she has suddenly waken up from a slumber & became silky smooth. May be crossing 1500 kms, may be the short-bursts I gave her to free her up or may be I got used to her with my driving style more aligned to Clutch-Geat-Accelerator combo/ config. But I must say that now she has surpassed Ford Ikon in Driving Plwasure, Ride Quality, Maneuvering. I'm now driving her like a toy, able to maneuver her brilliantly - here, there, left, right so on & so forth absolutely like a toy. This is the biggest pleasure for me as these qualities are very imp to me, relieves few of my worries, makes me so happy

All my earlier reservations about Power (or lack of it) has now gone out of the window. Somehow she became so silky that even the 2nd gear doesn't seem to let me feel any lack of power. And like Ford earlier, in B2B traffic, now she does not allow other cars to intrude & come in front of her lane from adjoining lane !!!
What is amazing is that in 5th Gear above 2000 RPM's, from a speed to 50 - 60 kmpl, if you press the accelerator, she just surges ahead like a jet & very smoothly. Brilliant, Brilliant.
Poise, Stability is top notch even when I throw her in corners.

The only "less power" I now feel is when I'm driving her in 5th gear & due to traffic the speed reduces (have not noted what reduced speed -may be around 40 - 50 kmph - have to check), it takes some time to recover the lost speed. This may be felt more on highways in overtaking, though again in Linea's defense, I'll have to wait for some time to check if its due to my driving style.

I had a driver earlier whom I let go when I purchased Linea as wanted to do run-in for initial 1500 kms myself. After enjoying the rides in Linea, am seriously reconsidering not to hire a driver now.
On that last line of last quote above, have still not re-hired that driver which I was forced to hire earlier because of change in my office location & resultant 2.5-3 hours drive back home in the evening in Mumbai B2B traffic. Still the 2.5-3 hours ride back home remains (till office location changes again) but riding Linea is just too good. Thats the effect of FIRE engine. My BIL's VTEC or a friend's ANHC never broght this wide grin on my face & will never bring. The only car which will do it to me is Fiesta 1.6S. Why I've not bought her instead? Thats a different discussion, this post has already become too long

Last edited by VahanPujari : 11th October 2009 at 03:25.
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Old 11th October 2009, 10:27   #920
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Originally Posted by VahanPujari View Post
Good post, StarVegabond

In addition to my experience shared earlier, lemme add further

Coming to Linea, with 10,000 kms on ODO approaching, my service bill (all charges/bills inclusive except for accidental insurance) cost is NIL (Rs. 75/- to be precise).

On Engine power in Linea, it took me some time to get used to combo of long play clutch/1st-2nd short gears. After that there is no looking back. Without any trace of arrogance, I can say that I leave powerful cars behind while starting from traffic signals in 99% cases (and Im no rash driver)

On that last line of last quote above, have still not re-hired that driver which I was forced to hire earlier because of change in my office location & resultant 2.5-3 hours drive back home in the evening in Mumbai B2B traffic. Still the 2.5-3 hours ride back home remains (till office location changes again) but riding Linea is just too good. Thats the effect of FIRE engine.
Yes, Amit, i have been following your thread keenly, i have seen you indulging with Linea and immersing yourself with the various features e.g your own Lina , Linea had made several owners indugle with it like a child totally immersed in playing with its blocks or bob the builder.

This was what i mentioned what consumers look for when they purchase a product or a Brand.

1. Majority of consumers like to indulge in the expereince of the product or service (and not worry about technical aspects of it)

2. Consumers like Consistancy w.r.t Performance, Price, Service etc, This also means a bit of predictablility (what i get in return).

3. Every person can not be a customer to a company or product. Success of the business or product is to develop a proposition for a set of target consumers and ensure that they buy it (at a premium) and company makes money and consumer keeps coming back as a repeat customer.

FIAT has done exceedingly well with the first aspect. It is improving with the second and third aspect, if more and more owners like you start sharing their good, consistant and predictable experiences with others and also if people see you becoming a repeat customer to FIAT then that re-inforce the perception that FIAT is a good company, great brand and offers good, reliable, performing products.

Honda had done such thing with City (OHC, NHC), whether ANHC will still keep the flag flying or not will be known in couple of years when it reaches it's end of prodcut life cycle and is replaced by a new product by Honda.

If current ANHC customers still opt for new HONDA products it means the magic continues, if not then we have another marketing case study and we can have a thread running into much longer pages than this one.

Last edited by StarVegabond : 11th October 2009 at 10:35.
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Old 11th October 2009, 10:50   #921
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Allow me to chip in here

A person I know bought a Honda City 2008 1.5 V MT for the following reasons

1. Because it is expensive than Linea, it is a better car !!
2. His colleague owns a Linea. Therefore this guy bought a Honda city so that he enjoys a "higher status" !!

I must add here : the Honda price tag was not something he was comfortable with. But STILL he went ahead because he wants to enjoy a better "status" and wants to "look down" on his colleague who owns a Linea.

@ VP : Fantastic post.
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Old 11th October 2009, 11:16   #922
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Originally Posted by GTO View Post
3. It is very much possible to resurrect a damaged brand. Look how GM managed all the bankruptcy news. No one is scared to even buy a 13 lakh Cruze or a 20 lakh Captiva.
After that bankruptcy news, the Spark sales did jump. All thanks to Karl slym who handsomely and bravely fought the condition and instead of hiding from press conferences he openly made people realize that foreign bankruptcy wouldnt affect indian operations. Very professionaly done, something which Fiat can do try in future too. CEO in ads telling people that its a new fiat with a new badge.

Quote:
As things stand today, yes, they have to. Not only to compete against the City, but against all other cars in the segment. Maruti & Hyundai are extremely formidable competition.And then, you have the Manza standing right next to it in the showroom! Same engine, roomier interiors, great ride quality.
By no means i wanted to leave the Fiesta or Verna out. Fiesta is now an awesome deal with those limited edition price tags but didnt ring the bells for me. As per my thought, those who are in the market for a Fiesta/Verna/Linea wouldnt want to have a Manza for sure. The clientele is different, it will have the indigo image attached to it.

Quote:
When you look at the averages, your chances of getting better service at a Maruti / Toyota are better than at Tata-Fiat. We are talking averages across the country, of median customer satisfaction levels across hundreds of service stations.
Maybe yes. Tata mechanics are sort of "jugaad" types. If they cant find something to fix a noise or vibrations they may use tapes etc which will not work with Linea customers.

Quote:
Again, going by the averages, your chances of finding outstanding Mahindra service are low. So for most people, its a downer. However, for me, I have great relations with Milestone (Mahindra Workshop) and have been going there since a decade.After sales is the last thing on my mind if I want
+1,
Atleast the car is niggle free till now and i only go service acc to schedule.
I was planning to buy Linea in April but then dad told me to wait as its a new car and after 6-8 months all problems will be solved which can come in the manufacturing. Seems dads are always right, am planning to visit the dealer and ask him to show me a new SEP manufactured Linea to see if things have improved. If NO, am buying a ANHC if Yes then Linea. Am still confused between a MJD or 1.4 FIRE. Running is around 1100-1200 kms a month.

Quote:
Originally Posted by VahanPujari View Post
On that last line of last quote above, have still not re-hired that driver which I was forced to hire earlier because of change in my office location & resultant 2.5-3 hours drive back home in the evening in Mumbai B2B traffic. Still the 2.5-3 hours ride back home remains (till office location changes again) but riding Linea is just too good. Thats the effect of FIRE engine. My BIL's VTEC or a friend's ANHC never broght this wide grin on my face & will never bring. The only car which will do it to me is Fiesta 1.6S. Why I've not bought her instead? Thats a different discussion, this post has already become too long
Excellent post VahanPujari,
1.6S is a marvel to drive. The stiff suspension setup is made to corner her again and again. Its really an awesome car, the interiors didnt click for me and noone in the house is agreeing for it.
Regarding anhc, the engine is good once she picks up revvs but its like i cant connect myself to the car. The feel is not there, also my mom on the back seat wasnt at all impressed, she said the ride is much harder.
Am looking at a MJD VP, the torque is just too good. For FIRE, i had to take revvs past 2k to make car move but MJD in 3rd gear was flying around+20-22 highway mileage- so much peace of mind

Quote:
Originally Posted by amoghchaphalkar View Post
A person I know bought a Honda City 2008 1.5 V MT for the following reasons
1. Because it is expensive than Linea, it is a better car !!
2. His colleague owns a Linea. Therefore this guy bought a Honda city so that he enjoys a "higher status" !!
YUPS,
People do think that in a Honda their status is much above those of hyundais or Fords on the road leave apart Fiat. Whoever i said to that am buying a Fiat Linea- their face expressions made me sad as i was buying a 2 decade old Ambassador. He didnt even know the Tech specs of car- nor the Linea nor anhc and told me to go get a anhc. He said "With Fiat teri image kharab hogi". Such is the attitude, he has a NHC. Maybe its how it will be a for a few years.

Quote:
I must add here : the Honda price tag was not something he was comfortable with. But STILL he went ahead because he wants to enjoy a better "status" and wants to "look down" on his colleague who owns a Linea.
Phew.. He wants to "look down". If he gets a Hummer someday he will crush all the cars.
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Old 11th October 2009, 11:20   #923
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As posted in last post here quoting one Cartoos, I think FE is not of a concern in current Fiat products and also cars are quite reliable as they are selling for long time in other countries.
A.S.S. is also improving as per Fiat cars owner's reports in various Forums.
They are also able sell as much as they can produce at the moment.
We need some more years to judge them here completely.
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Old 11th October 2009, 11:24   #924
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Amogh,

This is crazy i would say. People get better status and respect by the way they treat others.

There is saying which says: TREAT OTHERS LIKE THE WAY YOU WANT TO BE TREATED.

However to each his own, going away from one's limit is bit Dangerous to life !

What do you say !

Last edited by Eddy : 11th October 2009 at 12:13. Reason: Dotty post
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Old 11th October 2009, 12:25   #925
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Raj2402 View Post
I was planning to buy Linea in April but then dad told me to wait as its a new car and after 6-8 months all problems will be solved which can come in the manufacturing. Seems dads are always right, am planning to visit the dealer and ask him to show me a new SEP manufactured Linea to see if things have improved. If NO, am buying a ANHC if Yes then Linea. Am still confused between a MJD or 1.4 FIRE. Running is around 1100-1200 kms a month.
Raj: The new Lineas are free of all earlier issues. I personally felt that the plastic quality has also improved a lot. Please follow my thread "Life in a Linea" I will post a lot of pics today.
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Old 11th October 2009, 12:28   #926
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Default Touched 180kmph in 1.4 FIRE Linea!

Hello, after my 57 point comparison report (thread merged and posted in page 46 of this thread), I took the Linea to Daman over the weekend. I touched 180kmph in my Linea with ease. This was an eye opener for me. I did 180kmph twice (185kmph once) in my Fiat Adventure before. Never thought will touch 180 in the Linea. The car was super smooth. The passenger sitting next to me, was on phone while I was driving. He didn't realise that it did 180kmph. The rear passenger told him, we touched 180kmph, and he couldn;t believe it. He said, he never felt it was at 180kmph. Cudos to Linea. One more point, the handling of Linea is better than the Fiat Adventure.
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Old 11th October 2009, 13:49   #927
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Originally Posted by VahanPujari View Post
Point is my preferences vary, while Im extremely brand conscious for certain things for specific reasons, for other certain things Im not (for equally specific reasons).

I did not find anything special in driving VTEC & also ANHC which I expected from it being premium car over others.

Concern on Reliability/ Peace of Mind/ Brand / Badge etc

Cost of spares & Repair cost:

FE

Issue on Resale Value

On Engine power in Linea, it took me some time to get used to combo of long play clutch/1st-2nd short gears. After that there is no looking back. Without any trace of arrogance, I can say that I leave powerful cars behind while starting from traffic signals in 99% cases (and Im no rash driver) (Doesnt mean its the fastest but she fulfils my requirement of live / fast driving). Its documented in my ownership report criticism first & then realisation. Few posts from my ownership report are as below:

10 days after delivery

20 days after delivery

1 month after delivery

Almost 2 months after delivery

On that last line of last quote above, have still not re-hired that driver which I was forced to hire earlier because of change in my office location & resultant 2.5-3 hours drive back home in the evening in Mumbai B2B traffic. Still the 2.5-3 hours ride back home remains (till office location changes again) but riding Linea is just too good. Thats the effect of FIRE engine. My BIL's VTEC or a friend's ANHC never broght this wide grin on my face & will never bring. The only car which will do it to me is Fiesta 1.6S. Why I've not bought her instead? Thats a different discussion, this post has already become too long
Brilliant post VahanPujari. Awsome, awsome !!

You've covered almost all concerns/ points. And yet you haven't touched Looks, Curves, Gizmo's, Equipments etc.

I went thro' your entire thread which runs into almost 40 pages now & loved the way you mentioned every minute detail/ experience days after days. I liked the way you went after Fiat initially, got their Quality team to visit your place to address your concerns & in the process got your own perception/ experience changed to extreme positive. Thats a credit to Fiat for turning your negative perception/ experience into a grand positive customer indulgence/experience. Kudos. As others mentioned, if you & other initial batch of Linea owners have aggressively driven these points to Fiat & the subsequent batches of Linea owners are now not facing the issues you faced, than "100' Thumbs up to you & initial batch of Linea Owners for getting it done. Well done to Fiat also to address the concerns & also the issues in a very short time. Its not easy to do it.

During the course of your thread, I came across your another 5-star rated thread of Fiat Linea - Did you know? series. Thats even a better thread for the noble intention of improving ownership experience of next batch of Linea owners.

Keep it up buddy. Share your views more often.

Quote:
Originally Posted by StarVegabond View Post
1. Majority of consumers like to indulge in the expereince of the product or service (and not worry about technical aspects of it)

2. Consumers like Consistancy w.r.t Performance, Price, Service etc, This also means a bit of predictablility (what i get in return).


FIAT has done exceedingly well with the first aspect. It is improving with the second and third aspect, if more and more owners like you start sharing their good, consistant and predictable experiences with others and also if people see you becoming a repeat customer to FIAT then that re-inforce the perception that FIAT is a good company, great brand and offers good, reliable, performing products.

Honda had done such thing with City (OHC, NHC), whether ANHC will still keep the flag flying or not will be known in couple of years when it reaches it's end of prodcut life cycle and is replaced by a new product by Honda.
starvegabond,

The posts of VahanPujari and you are brilliant & case studies in itself. Both of you are right in your thought processes & choices. It also shows substantial, very very huge difference between the status of both the brands in India & the resultant impact on the sales numbers. This is what I was trying to communicate earlier. Brilliant analysis !!
 
Old 11th October 2009, 14:16   #928
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Similar indecent to Amogh's,
One day in our office's parking area my boss's secretary ,one of my colleague and me went out of my car which was parked just next to my boss car and lady asked me "is this Boss's car..?" i said yes. The car was Fiesta D.Then she asked " is this car better than Honda .?" again i said yes.Then she was like how can a ford be better than Honda.Then she told me her husband owns a NHC. Then again she asked what is the cost .? Is more expensive than honda..? Hamane to Honda ZXi 9L ko li thi isaki kimmat to kam hi rahegi .?And best part is she don't even know how to drive a car.

One more incidence.

Two years before my friend brought Swift Petrol so i asked him why not diesel,The answer was my mom don't like diesel cars as smell of diesel burning comes in side the cabin ha ha .? And again that lady don't know ABC of cars.

Last edited by parimal_g : 11th October 2009 at 14:17.
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Old 11th October 2009, 15:35   #929
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Originally Posted by Ferrari1976 View Post
Raj: The new Lineas are free of all earlier issues. I personally felt that the plastic quality has also improved a lot. Please follow my thread "Life in a Linea" I will post a lot of pics today.
, will visit your thread shortly today itself. Its the reaffirming from you Linea owners which has made my belief strong in buying a Linea. Lets see how tings progress.

Quote:
Originally Posted by omar1310 View Post
Hello, after my 57 point comparison report (thread merged and posted in page 46 of this thread), I took the Linea to Daman over the weekend. I touched 180kmph in my Linea with ease.The car was super smooth. The passenger sitting next to me, was on phone while I was driving. He didn't realise that it did 180kmph. The rear passenger told him, we touched 180kmph.
Oh great. How was the engine note at that speed. Max i did with my friend on 4 lane highway was a mere 150 against speed you recorded and there was a nice "hum" from the engine. Take the RPM to 5k and what a racing note the car produces.. The handling is good but i never thought that 180 also the driver wont be at the edge of the seat. Thats super stuff.
IF i am right, you also own a anhc na? Whats the max you took anhc to. Would you mind if i PM you regarding any doubt related to my confusion between a anhc or Linea.
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Old 11th October 2009, 16:37   #930
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Quote:
Originally Posted by StarVegabond View Post
Well said GTO + 1 to you.

As we see there are three phases in a engagement between a Customer and a Brand/Supplier
Quote:
Nice.

1. Pre-purchase Phase........

Coming back to FIAT, it has done very well in Good Value Propositions to the prospective customers (pre-sales phase) viz. Products (Linea, Punto), Promotion (TV, News Paper,internet Advertisements), Place (Tie up with Tatas for Sales, Distribution, Service, more the better), Positioning (Fuel efficient, leading features, equipment, great looks) and most importantly Price (including discounts, financing options etc).
Accurately put. However, Fiat, thanks to its diminished brand, still loses out in stage one itself. A good part of the market is sceptical of putting their money down on a Fiat.

Quote:
There is a saying " once a product is sold, it should stay sold", if it comes back for any reason, the margins would be eroded and future sales would affected. Most importantly customer should be cared thoughout the 360 degree of the ownership period consistantly year after year. Then the FIAT image would change, more owners would give positive feedback to prospective buyers and suddently the Brand becomes a happening brand.
Brilliantly put, and easier said than done. Fiat has messed up big time on this aspect and needs to prove its worth over the coming 5 - 10 years.

Quote:
I sincerely hope FIAT does not mess up again. Certainly it is on the climb, only time will tell where it will reach.
I also hope they get that 1.6 MJD ASAP

Quote:
Originally Posted by VahanPujari View Post
When I bought Ford Ikon in 2003, all usual influencers (family/ elders/ friends) were against it for A.S.S., maintenance costs, Resale etc & pushing for Esteem/ Accent. The only point was - I liked driving Ikon. That’s it.
Should have gotten the 1.6!

Quote:
A few years later when I drove my Brother-In-Law's VTEC (not OHC) for the 1st time & pulled it out of parking, I felt wow for the light steering. Only when I drove it substantially (we go together on holiday trips/ rides often) that I realized that no, I don’t like it.
The NHC wasn't, neither was it supposed to be, a drivers car. This has often been discussed on the forum. That said, it met the needs of the market splendidly. And in the city, it's much easier / better to drive than the Linea.

Quote:
I thought it was typical my preference of not liking VTEC steering which must be better coming from Honda/City.
Drive an OHC to know one of the best steerings in the business. Its a proper hydraulic unit that offers gokart-like feedback. One of the many factors that make it an enjoyable drive.

Quote:
I found much criticized Ford service to be extremely good & reliable. Once I leave car at Ford A.S.S., I did not have to worry about any problems unattended or even a forthcoming issue unattended.
Actually, Ford service is not that criticised and the parent company is making strong improvements to their after-sales in an attempt to iron out irregularities.

Quote:
Coming to Linea, with 10,000 kms on ODO approaching, my service bill (all charges/bills inclusive except for accidental insurance) cost is NIL (Rs. 75/- to be precise).
Sweet!

Quote:
Cost of spares & Repair cost: I’ve always found my colleagues, friends, almost everyone who owns a City cribbing over Spares cost & repair cost.
Strangely, the thousands of owners on this forum do not really complain about service & repair cost, nor have any in our ownership reviews. I suspect they are satisfied, else Honda & Toyota wouldn't have these kind of loyalty ratios.

Quote:
FE – I agree with Jaggu that most C- seg cars returns similar FE of 10-11-12 kmpl. One can only say FE figure of a specific 10 or 10.5 or 11
The key question is : What is the difference? Under driving conditions & driver being identical, the ANHC is decidedly more FE than the Linea. This is proven under any organised test condition. Yes, the actual difference may be 1-1.5 kpl, yet we must not overlook the fact that the ANHC provides not only class-leading fuel efficiency but also power. Relevant to the Linea, it is a WHOPPING 30% more powerful engine, yet one thats more fuel efficient. When it comes to petrol engines and tech, few can match Honda, leave aside beating them.

Quote:
Again I mentioned detailed calculations on Opportunity costs in other thread
Opportunity costs apply to any car, not just the ANHC. For example, if we bring in opportunity costs, the Dzire will work out 4 - 5 lakhs cheaper than the Linea. Surely, the Linea isn't worth 4 lakhs more than the Dzire?

Quote:
Without any trace of arrogance, I can say that I leave powerful cars behind while starting from traffic signals in 99% cases
LOL! Everyone agrees that the Lineas petrol does the job, per se. In the same breath, I might add, everyone also agrees that the Linea needs more power. WHY? Simply because it is the SLOWEST C-segment sedan today. Forget the ANHC, which offers class-leading performance, the SX4 & Verna are also indisputably better performances. To put things in perspective, by the time that the Linea has touched a 100, the ANHC will be hovering near 150.

Unfortunately, traffic drags are the worst measure of a cars performance. I can confidently tell you that those "other powerful cars" weren't stepping on teh gas as you did. Hey, the other day, I drove off in my Indigo ahead of the Laura at a traffic light but no, I will not be making any claims of beating "more powerful cars". Luckily, we do have accurate performance tests to give us an insight into the cars performance.
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