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View Poll Results: What petrol C segment sedan would you buy?
Honda City 1.5 iVtec 113 55.39%
Fiat Linea 1.4 Fire 91 44.61%
Voters: 204. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 20th January 2009, 20:33   #91
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For the gazillionth time, Honda could have chosen to offer a model without ABS and Airbags and price it 50k less like all manfacturers do in C segment. But they didnt, they extended the same safety mat thats provided to the D segment to C segment. The upped the bar and raised the game. Even if it means that it makes there car less VFM and results in some buyers choosing Linea Dynamic, or SX4 over City caz of a higer price point.

Trust me, given the option between a factor fitted stereo and airbags, Indians choose stereo, and this is where Honda deserves credit for making safety mandatory not optional. Thus they deserve higher marks in my book.
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Old 20th January 2009, 20:41   #92
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Originally Posted by supremeBaleno View Post
Hold on @aaggoswami, majority of the Indian buyers do not look at any 0-100 or other such figures while buying a car. To give an example, I bought the Baleno without looking at any figures - during the test drive, I liked the way it drove and the superb a/c and that was it. The decision was made.

So, don't write off the Linea even before the show starts. And that too on the basis of a supposedly weak engine. As I said before, to me it looks like this time around they are on the right path.
Agreed that majority of people will not be interested in 0-100 and even we bought Baleno after TD was very satisfying.
But the car with such a high kerb weight ( IIRC, its higher than even Civic ) at 1.3 tons, the engine will struggle. It might have FE, but such a car is expected to do other duties also. Linear power delivery, good ride quality are appreicated, but then, the performance will be below average expected out of a car of this cost.
FE might bring in high sales though.
But we do have examples like Zen D ( with then excellent TUD5, on which turbocharger could be bolted ), Esteem D, Palio D ( 1.9ltr ), Uno D that prove that only FE wont be good enought to win.

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Originally Posted by autocarcr View Post
I suggest those who want to compare Linea with ANHC and other major C+ cars should see this Linea comparison chart customised with Fiat logo and Linea logo. It's very informative! I made it!

AUTOCARCR
It was nice comparison. But I doutb that SX4 FE is so less.
A very nice effort though.
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Old 20th January 2009, 22:45   #93
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Comparison is a bit flawed if not biased as been stated by many members. But then no review is 100% accurate so let it be.
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Old 20th January 2009, 22:52   #94
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Originally Posted by aseem View Post
For the gazillionth time, Honda could have chosen to offer a model without ABS and Airbags and price it 50k less like all manfacturers do in C segment. But they didnt
And for the gazillionth time, that's exactly what Fiat did. Launch a car cheaper by more then 50K then the City without ABS and Airbags. Honda, in your words chose not to exercise that option. In the same way, Fiat chose to do it. BUT, they also reduced the price to justify the absence of ABS and Airbags. At the City's price point, the Fiesta, SX4 and Linea also offer both ABS and Airbags.

Quote:
They upped the bar and raised the game.
I don't know how Honda upped the bar and raised the game. It's the SX4 that did it because Maruti took the lead in providing these safety features. At the City's price point, every product offers these features.

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Honda deserves credit for making safety mandatory not optional. Thus they deserve higher marks in my book.
At what price? You are merely looking at the fact that even the basic City variant offers these features but the City's E variant is priced equal to higher variants and in some cases, equal to the topmost variant of other manufacturer's. Honda would deserve credit if their E variant was about 50K more then Linea Dynamic but you are paying almost Rs. 1.30 lakhs more for ABS and Airbags. We flame other car makers for making safety avaliable only to buyers of higher end models. Honda is doing the same.

Last edited by amit : 20th January 2009 at 22:55.
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Old 21st January 2009, 00:14   #95
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Originally Posted by amit View Post
And for the gazillionth time, that's exactly what Fiat did. Launch a car cheaper by more then 50K then the City without ABS and Airbags. Honda, in your words chose not to exercise that option. In the same way, Fiat chose to do it. BUT, they also reduced the price to justify the absence of ABS and Airbags. At the City's price point, the Fiesta, SX4 and Linea also offer both ABS and Airbags.



I don't know how Honda upped the bar and raised the game. It's the SX4 that did it because Maruti took the lead in providing these safety features. At the City's price point, every product offers these features.



At what price? You are merely looking at the fact that even the basic City variant offers these features but the City's E variant is priced equal to higher variants and in some cases, equal to the topmost variant of other manufacturer's. Honda would deserve credit if their E variant was about 50K more then Linea Dynamic but you are paying almost Rs. 1.30 lakhs more for ABS and Airbags. We flame other car makers for making safety avaliable only to buyers of higher end models. Honda is doing the same.
I guess you are comparing Linea Petrol with Honda for that price difference. I dont know how we can compare a 1.4 Ltr FIRE 90 PS engine with a 1.5 ltr 116 bhp motor from Honda with variable intake and valve technology and state Linea is cheaper. The Honda engine cost itself warrants a hefty premium. And not all cars/SUVs on or above City's price point offer airbags and abs.

Reiterating at the cost of sounding annoyingly repetitive: Honda chose not to lower their car price by 50k by denying safety features which would have resulted in more sales for them (just like Fiat is doing). They chose compulsary safety over higher sales, its a choice they made, and a good one at that.

I agree SX4 and to an extent Swift were trend setters for safety in their respective segments. But MUL has a half hearted approach to safety. They denied Zdi Model in Swift Deisel. In Sx4 too, they started giving stereo free with Vxi, and threw in more discounts to promote its sale. If on the other hand SX4 Vxi came sans stereo but with Airbags and ABS mandatory, I would have really appreciated MUL.

Saftey should not be an option, it should be mandatory, but unfortunately the country we live in, we cant depend on govt legistlations to make safety features like abs/airbags mandatory. Therefore any manfacturer that takes/makes these initiative needs to be applauded.
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Old 21st January 2009, 00:20   #96
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Honda maybe excellent value for money. But that depends on the mentality of the buyer. Most may think so that its VFM but the fact remains that other car makers offer better equipped cars for cheap.

Last edited by devarshi84 : 21st January 2009 at 00:29. Reason: Editing the post.
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Old 21st January 2009, 00:36   #97
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Originally Posted by aseem View Post
I guess you are comparing Linea Petrol with Honda for that price difference. I dont know how we can compare a 1.4 Ltr FIRE 90 PS engine with a 1.5 ltr 116 bhp motor from Honda with variable intake and valve technology and state Linea is cheaper. The Honda engine cost itself warrants a hefty premium. And not all cars/SUVs on or above City's price point offer airbags and abs.
I do not understand what is so great about the Honda 1.5 litre engine. It is not even figured in the competition for the international engine competition where as both the 1.4 litre fire and 1.3 litre multijet engines have won the 3rd and 4th prize in the 1-litre to 1.4-litre category. Below is the link for the competition result.

International Engine of the Year Awards 2009

all car manufacturing company spend quite a lot of money in developing engines. The same 1.4 litre fire engine from fiat is capable of generating 120bhp.

Please correct me if i am wrong ....
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Old 21st January 2009, 00:53   #98
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aseem View Post
Safety should not be an option, it should be mandatory, but unfortunately the country we live in, we cant depend on govt legistlations to make safety features like abs/airbags mandatory. Therefore any manfacturer that takes/makes these initiative needs to be applauded.
Quote:
Originally Posted by amit View Post
Honda would deserve credit if their E variant was about 50K more then Linea Dynamic but you are paying almost Rs. 1.30 lakhs more for ABS and Airbags.
honda needs applause, no doubt. the market has changed a lot in the last 5 yrs. Market conditions will decide whether honda will be able to charge the same kind of premium as it used to charge. we are already seeing that civic is unable to maintain its pricing. Civic E variant prices have been decreased by > 1 lac while we are seeing a lot of discounts on City ZX and civic V. In fact honda city charging a premium leaves a scope/ oppertunity for linea to exploit and deliver that market value. i presume if linea sells well and fiat can provide a decent ***, we will see some correction in honda city prices.
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Old 21st January 2009, 00:56   #99
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sridharp77 View Post
I do not understand what is so great about the Honda 1.5 litre engine. It is not even figured in the competition for the international engine competition where as both the 1.4 litre fire and 1.3 litre multijet engines have won the 3rd and 4th prize in the 1-litre to 1.4-litre category. Below is the link for the competition result.

International Engine of the Year Awards 2009

all car manufacturing company spend quite a lot of money in developing engines. The same 1.4 litre fire engine from fiat is capable of generating 120bhp.

Please correct me if i am wrong ....
Why should anybody care?
Its a family sedan. If it has an engine which gives the best mileage in its class and still manages to develop adequate power(120bhp is nice for this class of vehicle in India), its good enough.
Moreover in family sedan space 110bhp-120bhp-130bhp etc., is all immaterial. If your car has adequate power to weight ratio(read 80-90bhp/ton+) and gives 15-20kmpl highway, and is low on maintainance, its sold. Less than 1% of buyers buy a car for 0-100 or quartermile timings. They want a car which has good A.S.S. decent mileage and adequate power. The NHC with the underpowered 77bhp whipped everybody else? why? Because honda understands what the customer wants. Marketing is not based on the 1% niche, but based on the 99% people who are the actual buyers.
Just my 2 cents !
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Old 21st January 2009, 10:08   #100
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Quote:
Originally Posted by autocarcr
I suggest those who want to compare Linea with ANHC and other major C+ cars should see this Linea comparison chart. It's very informative! I made it!
Where did you source the FE figures from for all the cars being compared by you ? Especially just released cars like Linea, ANHC etc for which we do not have any actual user data on FE ?

Under "NOTE", you mention, "Economy wise, Linea wins again- so it will not be thirsty for fuel as well as for money!". Could you explain how you arrived at this conclusion that Linea is the winner on FE without any user feedback on FE ?

And while most Linea threads here mention a kerb weight of 1300kg for the Linea, your chart shows it as 1205kg and 1185kg for the Diesel and Petrol variants respectively.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tsk1979
If it has an engine which gives the best mileage in its class and still manages to develop adequate power(120bhp is nice for this class of vehicle in India), its good enough.
Ahem, are we not jumping the gun when it comes to the FE of the ANHC by saying best-in-class mileage and stuff ? The NHC @ 1ton with 77 horses was the FE leader in C-segment petrol. But the equation changes when the new version of the car adds 200kgs of weight and power is upped by 43bhp.

Last edited by supremeBaleno : 21st January 2009 at 10:13.
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Old 21st January 2009, 10:10   #101
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In India, cars are not sold on the merit of the engine but on the VFM factor. Any damn car having low cost and high FE will win the race at least for the cars in the range of 1.5L - 12L. Even we have seen luxury diesels are outselling petrols. So if Linea Diesel is available for almost same the price as Honda blah blah blah engine, People will definitely think twice before putting money into Honda.

Guys, do we really have hyped Honda brand tooooo much here in India ??
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Old 21st January 2009, 10:23   #102
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Hype is very subjective. Some feel Skoda is really hyped in India. Some feel even Linea is hyped up. As I mentioned, hype is really subjective.
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Guys, do we really have hyped Honda brand tooooo much here in India ??
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Old 21st January 2009, 10:30   #103
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Originally Posted by diabloo View Post
Hype is very subjective. Some feel Skoda is really hyped in India. Some feel even Linea is hyped up. As I mentioned, hype is really subjective.
I talked about Honda because this thread is about FIAT and Honda cars. I do not want to drag other brands here in this thread. At least, now people will understand the day light robbery by Honda. No matter if anybody accepts it or not, looking at the current ad from Honda, it really seems Honda has got the Message loud and clear.
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Old 21st January 2009, 10:39   #104
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Originally Posted by aseem View Post
I guess you are comparing Linea Petrol with Honda for that price difference.
OK lets take the diesel into the equation then. Linea diesel option pack is Rs.8.35 lakhs. Approx Rs. 50-70K more then City E. It matches the City for ABS and Airbags and gives additional features like ACC, Blue&Me and a DIESEL engine.

Quote:
I dont know how we can compare a 1.4 Ltr FIRE 90 PS engine with a 1.5 ltr 116 bhp motor from Honda with variable intake and valve technology and state Linea is cheaper. The Honda engine cost itself warrants a hefty premium.
Do you know for a fact that the IVTEC engine costs substantially more then engines of other makes or it's your assumption? If so, can you quantify the higher cost of the IVTEC engine? Besides, if Fiat can offer their European Engine of the Year with more features at similar prices then why can't Honda? Are you telling us that the IVTEC engine is more expensive to produce then what is regarded globally as one of the best diesel engine's ever developed? If someone buys a City S M/T he will spend 10K more then Linea MJD Emotion Option pack.

Quote:
Reiterating at the cost of sounding annoyingly repetitive:
We are so sorry for annoying you. Please forgive us.

Quote:
I agree SX4 and to an extent Swift were trend setters for safety in their respective segments. But MUL has a half hearted approach to safety. They denied Zdi Model in Swift Deisel. In Sx4 too, they started giving stereo free with Vxi, and threw in more discounts to promote its sale. If on the other hand SX4 Vxi came sans stereo but with Airbags and ABS mandatory, I would have really appreciated MUL.
Translated: No matter what, Honda is the best.

Last edited by amit : 21st January 2009 at 10:43.
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Old 21st January 2009, 11:12   #105
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Originally Posted by tsk1979 View Post
The NHC with the underpowered 77bhp whipped everybody else? why? Because honda understands what the customer wants.
Not sure I agree with that. It was more because the average Indian car buyer is overly enamored about the Honda badge. Seriously.

I could have somewhat agreed with your logic if it was applied to the ANHC but definitely not to its 77 bhp predecessor.
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