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View Poll Results: What petrol C segment sedan would you buy?
Honda City 1.5 iVtec 113 55.39%
Fiat Linea 1.4 Fire 91 44.61%
Voters: 204. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 21st January 2009, 13:52   #121
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I know how the NHC did. Whenever I talked about it's lack of power, people said, "Thats ok, look at the mileage! And more over I use it mostly for city driving"

This line was so popular that, everybody thought City is all about the mileage.

I feel, usually, people who buy C cars are not first time buyers. They are mostly upgrading from a fuel efficient hatch. [Mostly a maruti :P]

They are not [most of the time] used to high bills, whichever form, either high EMI or 8-9 KMPL.

Even as they are taking time to come to terms with extra expenditure, they would never want to see huge fuel bills.

They are not just used to it. In this scene, a decent engine [with moderate power] is perfectly acceptable as long as the fuel bills are same as their hatch. It indeed matters. They more want the image/status of the C segment car rather than it's specs.

As everybody has indicated, FE forms a biggest part of the criteria to buy car in India. Needless to say if Linea is good FE, people will forget so called lack of power.

Has anybody heard, outside of this forum, complaints about NHC being low powered? We only hear how fuel efficent it is. This positive overrides all negatives.

Come to think of it, I had a HERO PUCH. Man!!! I can only boast about it. Why? Amazing FE!!! It used to sell like hot cake!
It had negatives : every two weeks i had to change the gear cable - lot of niggling problems. But the it's FE would beat everything else out of the competition. Everybody was so proud about PUCH for it's FE. I understand it is not valid comparison, but I feel, a lot of the then Hero Puch owners, or such, might be planning for a car now

So I am one of them who is saying dont make too much of fuss about lack of power. It is just adeqaue for the image/status cautious person. I guess it has everything in place. Only the sales charts awaited.

Last edited by penpavan : 21st January 2009 at 13:56.
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Old 21st January 2009, 15:37   #122
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Originally Posted by amit View Post
OK lets take the diesel into the equation then. Linea diesel option pack is Rs.8.35 lakhs. Approx Rs. 50-70K more then City E. It matches the City for ABS and Airbags and gives additional features like ACC, Blue&Me and a DIESEL engine.



Do you know for a fact that the IVTEC engine costs substantially more then engines of other makes or it's your assumption? If so, can you quantify the higher cost of the IVTEC engine? Besides, if Fiat can offer their European Engine of the Year with more features at similar prices then why can't Honda? Are you telling us that the IVTEC engine is more expensive to produce then what is regarded globally as one of the best diesel engine's ever developed? If someone buys a City S M/T he will spend 10K more then Linea MJD Emotion Option pack.
.
Going by the fact that iDsi capable of 87 bhp internationaly was 50k cheaper than VTEC, its safe to assume the engine costs substancially more than the puny 1.3 ltrs engine doing duty from cars like Indica, Swift, Dezire to Linea (albeit with a different turbo).

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Originally Posted by amit View Post
We are so sorry for annoying you. Please forgive us.
No need to get so worked up "we" man, I understand you own a Fiat and your judgement is clouted, but no need to be so sarcastic, its not funny at all.

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Originally Posted by amit View Post
Translated: No matter what, Honda is the best.
Far from it, but in the given price range in India both the Civic and the City represent a very good package for the middle class. The day other manfacturers like WV, BMW, Toyota, etc. take Indian market seriously, I am sure we will see a different picture.
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Old 21st January 2009, 15:50   #123
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aseem View Post
Going by the fact that iDsi capable of 87 bhp internationaly was 50k cheaper than VTEC, its safe to assume the engine costs substancially more than the puny 1.3 ltrs engine doing duty from cars like Indica, Swift, Dezire to Linea (albeit with a different turbo).
uh oh... 1.3 puny relative to what... a 1.5 Litre petrol
Besides that puny engine comes with common rail and a VGT turbocharger, the combined cost of which I am sure would be considerably more than the iVtec system in the City.
And instead of justifying Honda's pricing in India and rubbishing the 1.3 engine, how hard is it to admit that Honda is overcharging.


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Originally Posted by aseem View Post
Far from it, but in the given price range in India both the Civic and the City represent a very good package for the middle class. The day other manfacturers like WV, BMW, Toyota, etc. take Indian market seriously, I am sure we will see a different picture.
Couldn't disagree more. With the arrival of Fiat Linea and Toyota Corolla Altis, both the City and Civic look overpriced.
And I dont think the Indian middle class can still afford the City or the Civic.

Last edited by extreme_torque : 21st January 2009 at 15:53.
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Old 21st January 2009, 15:51   #124
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The TC'ed engine (in FIAT MJD) is far more expensive than any NA engine (Honda's City or Civic) as it is designed & built to withstand higher pressures, temperatures and vibration (diesel)!

BTW, all cars in India are horribly overpriced... period! You must be joking to call that 9L City a middle class car (leave alone the Civic)?

Quote:
Originally Posted by aseem View Post
Going by the fact that iDsi capable of 87 bhp internationaly was 50k cheaper than VTEC, its safe to assume the engine costs substancially more than the puny 1.3 ltrs engine doing duty from cars like Indica, Swift, Dezire to Linea (albeit with a different turbo).

No need to get so worked up "we" man, I understand you own a Fiat and your judgement is clouted, but no need to be so sarcastic, its not funny at all.

Far from it, but in the given price range in India both the Civic and the City represent a very good package for the middle class. The day other manfacturers like WV, BMW, Toyota, etc. take Indian market seriously, I am sure we will see a different picture.
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Old 21st January 2009, 15:51   #125
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aseem View Post
Going by the fact that iDsi capable of 87 bhp internationaly was 50k cheaper than VTEC, its safe to assume the engine costs substancially more than the puny 1.3 ltrs engine doing duty from cars like Indica, Swift, Dezire to Linea (albeit with a different turbo).
That's exactly the point. You are assuming things. For all you know the Honda engine isn't as costly to produce as you would like to believe.


Quote:
No need to get so worked up "we" man, I understand you own a Fiat and your judgement is clouted, but no need to be so sarcastic, its not funny at all.
Its better if you don't judge my judgement. You are the one who has been making statements like 'sounding annoyingly repititive' and 'gazillionth time'. It sounds like you are doling out advice on this 'definitive comparision' thread by guiding us lost souls into which is a better product. There are some very good points made by other members here but you think are better then everyone else. That's the tone of your comments.

It amazes me that you find my judgement clouted when I haven't judged any of the two cars in question either singly or comparitively till now!

Quote:
Far from it, but in the given price range in India both the Civic and the City represent a very good package for the middle class.
I agree about the Civic. The City is a rip off. Sure it has a IVtec engine. What else does it have apart from a brilliant engine? It's overpriced and undereuipped. If it was a Chevrolet, Ford or Tata City, we would all be ripping it apart for not giving fog lights, alloys and ACC for 10 lakhs.

Last edited by amit : 21st January 2009 at 16:01.
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Old 21st January 2009, 16:00   #126
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aseem View Post
Far from it, but in the given price range in India both the Civic and the City represent a very good package for the middle class.
You're kidding, right? Which Middle Class is that now, I wonder!
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Old 21st January 2009, 16:08   #127
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Originally Posted by amit View Post
That's exactly the point. You are assuming things. For all you know the Honda engine isn't as costly to produce as you would like to believe.
.
And arent you guilty of the same when you state that Honda's engine isnt more expensive than Linea. What makes you believe an engine that powers a 4.3 lakh rupee Indica is more expensive than Honda's albeit with a different turbo?

Quote:
Originally Posted by amit View Post
Its better if you don't judge my judgement. You are the one who has been making statements like 'sounding annoyingly repititive' and 'gazillionth time'. It sounds like you are doling out advice on this 'definitive comparision' thread by guiding us lost souls into which is a better product. There are some very good points made by other members here but you think are better then everyone else. That's the tone of your comments.
.
And its better if you dont judge mine and become the judge here. For every thread that praises Linea I can find you another that states its underpowered, has low quality plastics, etc. I am not a Honda fan boy who turns a blind eye to the lack of features from Honda like Automatic Climate Control, Alloys etc. I have mentioned it in the review myself and have stated that interiors, exteriors, equipment level, Linea scores over City.


If the tone of my comments sounds condescending to you, than the tone of your messages sounds like a self proclaimed Messaih with his yes men out to defend Fiat and rip City apart to me. Thats why you start your messages with "we" as opposed to "I".

Quote:
Originally Posted by amit View Post
I agree about the Civic. The City is a rip off. Sure it has a IVtec engine. What else does it have apart from a brilliant engine? It's overpriced and undereuipped. If it was a Chevrolet, Ford or Tata City, we would all be ripping it apart for not giving fog lights, alloys and ACC for 10 lakhs.
What else apart from brilliant engine..... Mandatory Safety Options, the first in its class. Choosing to give Airbags and ABS in E model versus climate control and alloys.
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Old 21st January 2009, 16:22   #128
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Originally Posted by aseem View Post
And arent you guilty of the same when you state that Honda's engine isnt more expensive than Linea. What makes you believe an engine that powers a 4.3 lakh rupee Indica is more expensive than Honda's albeit with a different turbo?
I never said that the Honda's engine isn't as expensive as the Linea. I said you are assuming that the I-Vtec engine is costlier but it may not be so. The onus was not on what I think. It was on what you are assuming.

Quote:
And its better if you dont judge mine and become the judge here.
I haven't judged your thread or any of the cars in question. I don't know why you keep thinking I am judging you.

You, on the other hand, started a thread on judging the cars! Through this thread, some members, including those who are not Fiat owners pointed out some very good points which you dismissed outright. I never said a word on your judgement. You started it by saying and assuming that my judgement is clouted because I happen to own a car of that brand.

Quote:
For every thread that praises Linea I can find you another that states its underpowered, has low quality plastics, etc. I am not a Honda fan boy who turns a blind eye to the lack of features from Honda like Automatic Climate Control, Alloys etc. I have mentioned it in the review myself and have stated that interiors, exteriors, equipment level, Linea scores over City.
You don't need to find me anything. I am well aware of such threads and again, you will not find a post from me going for or against anyone that says Linea is not underpowered or it is underpowered.

Quote:
If the tone of my comments sounds condescending to you, than the tone of your messages sounds like a self proclaimed Messaih with his yes men out to defend Fiat and rip City apart to me. Thats why you start your messages with "we" as opposed to "I".
The 'We' was for all members who posted on this thread. I thought you were 'annoyingly repititive' for everyone who posted here. Thanks for clearing that you were only annoyed with Fiat owners!

By the way, it's not just Fiat owners who have pointed out things. Non-Fiat owners have also raised some valid points here.

Quote:
What else apart from brilliant engine..... Mandatory Safety Options, the first in its class. Choosing to give Airbags and ABS in E model versus climate control and alloys.
Mandatory safety features at a price. City's base E model is priced on par with higher variants of other makes that also offer these features PLUS alloys, fog lights and ACC with state of the art diesel engines.
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Old 21st January 2009, 16:32   #129
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First of all, I would like to to tell that i am neither a fan of fiat or honda and dont own either of these cars. So, dont take my opinions as coming from a fan. What is stated here is plan facts as I know.

Honda City:
Even the honda fans have to admit, it maybe a good product but certainly over-priced. I did like honda as a manufacturer because they introduced latest products in the market without much delays. But all that admiration was gone when I was abroad went shopping for a car for my sister. The top end model abroad featured much better interiors, better specs including 7-speed A/T gearbox. And the top end in India did not have many of these features and was still retailing at around 50% premium. please note I am reffering to previous generation city and this was in August 2008. Why should anyone give 50% premium for a locally made (non cbu/ckd) car? Honda is good technically, but it is too over-priced at least in case of city. Every product is worth a price, I dont see a point in shelling out more than what it is worth.
Think of this: say gold rate today is Rs.1000 per gram. I go to a jeweller and he tells me that he will only sell for Rs.1500 per gram. Obviously no one would buy it from him because it is not worth Rs.1500.
People buy honda city because they are not aware of how much it is over-priced, and also because of stupid badge loyalty.
Civic was also over-priced but the specs were too different to compare, so i am leaving it out since I cannot calculate the degree of difference. The civic abroad (in middle east), did not have integrated audio system and paddle shift, even in top variants at that time. Interestingly the accord and civic did not have paddle shift unlike the Indian versions and city was the only model they had paddle shift.
I repeat, I still like honda for bringing the latest models in India without delay, but I dont see myself buying any honda cars till they bring their price to realistic levels.

Fiat Linea:
Since I have not seen or TDed the car till now, I will reserve my comments about linea for later. But, as of now I feel that the sooner they bring T-jet, they more customers that they can take from honda city. Till then, I dont think anyone considering honda city will think of linea for sheer lack of power. On the positive side, it is good that fiat decided to bring the 1.4 16v engine instead of the 1.4 8v 77PS engine offered in some markets internationally. Guess they wanted to strike the right balance between fuel economy and power.

Last edited by mxx : 21st January 2009 at 16:35.
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Old 21st January 2009, 16:40   #130
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Quote:
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You're kidding, right? Which Middle Class is that now, I wonder!
The Class that can't afford the Accord?
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Old 21st January 2009, 16:44   #131
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Below is what I think the rating should be:

Exteriors - Linea 4, City 3.5
Linea looks good from every angle

Interiors - Linea 4, City 3.5
Good quality plastics on the Linea, more space

Features - Linea 4.5, City 3
Linea gets Climate control, Blue & Me, CD Player

Safety - Linea 5, City 4
Linea is based on the Punto (EuroNCAP rating of 5) while City is based on the Jazz (rating of 4)

Ride and Handling - Linea 4.5, City 3.5
Better Ride on the Linea, better handling, wider tyres

Performance - Linea 3 City 5
City is faster in the 0-100 sprint, Linea is better in the 80-0

Economy - Linea 4.5 , City 3.5
FE should be comparable, but Linea has the diesel advantage

Total - Linea 29.5, City 26


Linea is clearly the winner. Autocar India and Overdrive has got it right.
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Old 21st January 2009, 16:45   #132
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i-Vtec engine or whatever, it is a fact that the ANHC IS overpriced. Ofcourse some can say that they are giving more bhp or safety features etc etc, but that does not justify the price increase vis-a-vis the NHC. With the latest pricing, the erstwhile C-segmenter is moving into another segment altogether.

When the price for the ANHC was first revealed, all I could read on the forum was, exclamations of how great the pricing is. Which actually puzzled me because I found the ANHC's pricing to be on the higher side.

Why ? Because the lowest trim of the NHC was available for 7.4L onroad-Chennai, while the lowest trim of the ANHC was a good 7.71L ex-showroom. So adding tax+insurance, the on-road price is going to be close to 1lakh more than what it was for NHC. If this is not overpriced, I don't know what is.

Last edited by supremeBaleno : 21st January 2009 at 17:03.
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Old 21st January 2009, 16:49   #133
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Quote:
Originally Posted by amit View Post
The 'We' was for all members who posted on this thread. I thought you were 'annoyingly repititive' for everyone who posted here. Thanks for clearing that you were only annoyed with Fiat owners!

By the way, it's not just Fiat owners who have pointed out things. Non-Fiat owners have also raised some valid points here.
Thanks for putting words in my mouth. I never said that I am annoyed at Fiat owners. I just stated that your judgement is questionable as you own a Fiat and as can be seen from your posts you are an ardent fan. I myself have pointed out several qualities of Linea. However I do think that the outcome of the review did ticker many Fiat fans.
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Old 21st January 2009, 16:51   #134
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Time (and sales figures) will tell if majority of people will think whether a car is overpriced. They will take into account refinement, FE and reliability and decide on VFM.
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Old 21st January 2009, 16:56   #135
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I would go for Linea. Although the new Honda City also has all the features but somehow Fiat Linea sounds to be more amazing. The advanced engine technologies are just superb. I don't know much about the FIRE engine but have seen and even experienced the performance of the turbocharged diesel engine. It also beats the Honda City in terms of its boot capacity. I have heard that it has about 500 litre of boot capacity and that's tremendous.
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